Martin Luther

[TheGarg]

Tlaloc:

I can’t believe entire faiths have hissy fits over freaking crackers. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.

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**There you go, showing your “not smart” side again:ehh: **

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**BTW, Christianity is “all about” the Eucharist. The Eucharist IS Jesus. ****Whether you believe it or not is irrelavent] Your making statements on things you know NOTHING about again. **

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**I forgive you again, for insulting me, again. **

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**Peace of the Lord be with you. **

 

[cyprian]

Poor Luder, took things too far. Sin boldly meant exactly what it says, otherwise he would have prefaced it accordingly. Ya can’t have it both ways. How is it that you tell someone to do something that you already know they aren’t supposed to do because they understand you to believe something contrary to what it is that you said? Confused ? So was Luder. A madman at best. To spend 2 hours at a time in the confessional with not much to confess leads one to think that this person is struggling with the fact that he can’t stand the fact that he’s not assured of salvation. He changed Paul’s words to fit his maniac tempest, adding the word ALONE regarding being saved by faith. A goofball who wound up marrying a nun and should have never been a priest. Not much discernment, his friends and parents told him he was making a mistake. Believe what you will… He was mad!!

 

[cyprian]

****
**There you go, showing your “not smart” side again:ehh: **

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**BTW, Christianity is “all about” the Eucharist. The Eucharist IS Jesus. ****Whether you believe it or not is irrelavent] Your making statements on things you know NOTHING about again. **

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**I forgive you again, for insulting me, again. **

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**Peace of the Lord be with you. **

Amen Garg
Cath’s And luth’s will never be united until transubstantiation is believed by the luth’s…until then

 

[dumspirospero]

That commercial makes me sick…it makes people think that just because you may be black, hispanic, etc., that you will be turned away from The Church…then they condone homosexual activities as if they are not blasphemous…Why is The Church being attacked because we stand behind the Word of God…Homosexuality is an abomination and people should be informed that it is not a favorable lifestyle in the Eyes of God.

Nichevo:

The United Church of Christ, the current “uber-cool” church of choice with the slick tv ads, has an interesting review of the recent movie about Luther hailing him as a “hero.” ucc.org/ucnews/nov03/luther.htm

 

[Shibboleth]

Gratias Grace:

OK, Shibboleth, but you have not commented about the differences that have to be solved among lutherans and catholics in the future if we some day shall make the Eucarist **one meal ** that we can participate in together. I put it this way in my post (post nr.26 on this thread):

G.Grace

O.K. I think that you are asking about how we can rectify the problem with the broken line of Apostolic Succession in the Lutheran Church so that we can celebrate communion together.

First, and I could be wrong on this, even if Lutheranism worked with the Roman Catholic Church to have every male Pastor in the Lutheran Church ordained we still could not celebrate communion together in full.

Lutheran laypeople are not allowed at this point to partake in Communion in a Catholic Church under normal circumstances irregardless – so I cannot see how restoring the Apostolic Line in the Lutheran Church will affect this.

From what I understand, and I could be wrong once again, in the ELCA a Catholic is welcome at the table if they so wish by way of the ELCA rules but the Catholic Church forbids this from occurring. If the line was restored could a Catholic individual receive communion in an ELCA Church with the RC’s blessing – this I don’t know the ruling on… can a Roman Catholic receive communion in the Eastern Churches?

Roman Catholics that I have talked to have expressed that they appreciate the LC-MS and WELS synods because they do not ordain women and have more strict views on certain issues. Unfortunately this works both ways. WELS and LC-MS are far more anti-Catholic than the ELCA and refused to sign The Joint Doctrine of Justification. Furthermore, both Synods follow a strict practice of closed communion so even other Lutherans outside of their Synods are not allowed to take communion in their churches. So it is highly unlikely that there will ever be a sharing of communion between these groups.

The Evangelical Catholic Church is a different situation all together. First off they are a dieing Synod. Second, they are similar to the Sedavacantists in that they view the God of Muslims as Satan and not the same God as the Christians and Jewish. So, since Vatican II has proclaimed the The God of Abraham the same between groups these two will never be in Communion.

In reference to Female Priests – this is a battle that I fight with on a daily basis. Not an easy answer and seeing as on Lutheran chat boards that I participate in cannot come to a good conclusion I don’t see where a short talk here will do much of anything.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Shibboleth:

O.K. I think that you are asking about how we can rectify the problem with the broken line of Apostolic Succession in the Lutheran Church so that we can celebrate communion together.

First, and I could be wrong on this, even if Lutheranism worked with the Roman Catholic Church to have every male Pastor in the Lutheran Church ordained we still could not celebrate communion together in full.

Lutheran laypeople are not allowed at this point to partake in Communion in a Catholic Church under normal circumstances irregardless – so I cannot see how restoring the Apostolic Line in the Lutheran Church will affect this.

From what I understand, and I could be wrong once again, in the ELCA a Catholic is welcome at the table if they so wish by way of the ELCA rules but the Catholic Church forbids this from occurring. If the line was restored could a Catholic individual receive communion in an ELCA Church with the RC’s blessing – this I don’t know the ruling on… can a Roman Catholic receive communion in the Eastern Churches?

Roman Catholics that I have talked to have expressed that they appreciate the LC-MS and WELS synods because they do not ordain women and have more strict views on certain issues. Unfortunately this works both ways. WELS and LC-MS are far more anti-Catholic than the ELCA and refused to sign The Joint Doctrine of Justification. Furthermore, both Synods follow a strict practice of closed communion so even other Lutherans outside of their Synods are not allowed to take communion in their churches. So it is highly unlikely that there will ever be a sharing of communion between these groups.

The Evangelical Catholic Church is a different situation all together. First off they are a dieing Synod. Second, they are similar to the Sedavacantists in that they view the God of Muslims as Satan and not the same God as the Christians and Jewish. So, since Vatican II has proclaimed the The God of Abraham the same between groups these two will never be in Communion.

In reference to Female Priests – this is a battle that I fight with on a daily basis. Not an easy answer and seeing as on Lutheran chat boards that I participate in cannot come to a good conclusion I don’t see where a short talk here will do much of anything.

You most have thought a lot about this, Shibboleth. I have to admit that I am not sure about in wich churches catholics are welcome to participate in the Eucariatic meal. Catholics are however bound not to enter into a communion were there has been no transubstantiation.

May be you that you think this is ridiculous, but I don’t! A catholic is catholic and thinks that the whole truth is in the Catholic Church. Other churches have parts of the truth, but not the whole. (See: CCC 816-819 ). When we know what the Eucaristic meal is in the fullest we can’t participate in something lesser than the full.

I think the responsibillity here is on the lutheran priests. They MUST understand this very important aspect.

When it comes to the apostolic succession it has to do with to be ordained with the hand of “somebody” already “apostolic ordained” on ones shoulder. I hope there will be a solution that is accseptable for both the lutherans and us catholic.

When the apostolic succesion is OK, there should be no hindrance about lutheran male priest consecrete Hosts for both lutherans and catholics if these priests believe in the transubstantiation. (What to do about the lutheran femal prisests I don’t know. They don’t fit in).

Personally I think the way to unity still will be very long! But I can’t say it for sure. We don’t walk alone. God is with us!

To be continued:

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Continued:
A reminder : **"Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

• a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280
• conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”;281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;
• prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'282
• fraternal knowledge of each other;283
• ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284
• dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285
• collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit (CCC 820-822).**

God bless!

G.Grace

 

[Shibboleth]

Thank you for that information,

I think that all Christians and Cathloics in particular should be familiar with this document.

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-111.htm
Saint Cyprian
Treatise On the Unity of the Church

I have been toying with the idea of every week putting up a document by a Saint or Church Father for people to read and then discuss.

The problem is is that many of the documents are very long and would take some effort on the part of those involved. I am not sure if I would get the following it deserves. What do you think? We could start with this document.

I am sure that people like you, Katholikos, Cyprian, katherine, ahimsaman72, and many others could really benefit from dong such a thing.

 

[terrcatholic]

**I am suprised, as a new member, how so many Catholics here are willing to offer up their faith just to be in commmunion with a heretic such as Luther, a man who put the church is a tailspin for centuries. **

The differences between Protestants and Catholics are enormous, and the attempts by the Pope and the changing of the liturgy after the Second Vatican Council to make it more appealing to Protestants was in many peoples opinion more than should be compromised

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Shibboleth:

The problem is is that many of the documents are very long and would take some effort on the part of those involved. I am not sure if I would get the following it deserves. What do you think?

The documents are long! I don’t know if I have the time to go into them properly. But I can only aswer for myself. Others may have the time to do it. Why don’t you ask them (Start a thread with the question about interest) ?

God bless!

G.Grace

 

[Gratias_Grace]

**I am suprised, as a new member, how so many Catholics here are willing to offer up their faith just to be in commmunion with a heretic such as Luther, a man who put the church is a tailspin for centuries. **

Well, terrcatholic, don’t shoot sparrow with cannons! There is a loooooooooooong way to walk! Nobody talked about “offer up their faith” (on this thread). May be the FULL unity between lutherans and catholics will not come thrue in this life. But that doesn’t mean that we shall not work to try to realize it, to go one step at the time!!!

Both lutherans and catholics have admitted guilt for the split. Jesus said: “that they may all be one” (John 17:21) Jesus never wanted a split .

About Luthers descendants the catholic catechism has this to say: “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” (CCC 818)

G.Grace

 

[cyprian]

Shibboleth:

Thank you for that information,

I think that all Christians and Cathloics in particular should be familiar with this document.

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-111.htm
Saint Cyprian
Treatise On the Unity of the Church

I have been toying with the idea of every week putting up a document by a Saint or Church Father for people to read and then discuss.

The problem is is that many of the documents are very long and would take some effort on the part of those involved. I am not sure if I would get the following it deserves. What do you think? We could start with this document.

I am sure that people like you, Katholikos, Cyprian, katherine, ahimsaman72, and many others could really benefit from dong such a thing.

Church fathers are a great read. Shows how some were contemporaries of apostles and that they overlap with Acts of Apostles. I recommend William Jurgens "Faith of the Early Fathers. Great stuff.
Peace and Love

 

[terrcatholic]

I hear you, but lets not give up our sacrements, our Pope, our belief in expiation of sin here on earth, on and on if you would like for me to, just to get in a group of people, who left because, in the words of Luther, “in his trip to Rome, he saw many abuses”. So what does he do? Changes everything, throws out sacrements, believes in scripture alone can get you to heaven, and he goes and gets married, to a Nun for that matter. He was an angry man who had an ax to grind, and I and many of my like will not give up the church that was instituted by Christ and water it down even more than has happened in the past 40 or 50 years to get back a group of people that caused us tremendous harm. When Catholics came to this country in the early 1900’s, it was the Protestants who discriminated against us. The past is the past. We can reach out to them as we have always tried to, but giving away what we believe in, no dice here.
Gratias Grace:

Well, terrcatholic, don’t shoot sparrow with cannons! There is a loooooooooooong way to walk! Nobody talked about “offer up their faith” (on this thread). May be the FULL unity between lutherans and catholics will not come thrue in this life. But that doesn’t mean that we shall not work to try to realize it, to go one step at the time!!!

Both lutherans and catholics have admitted guilt for the split. Jesus said: “that they may all be one” (John 17:21) Jesus never wanted a split .

About Luthers descendants the catholic catechism has this to say: “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” (CCC 818)

G.Grace

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Hey terrcatholic!

Matin Luther HAD a tendence to be temperamental! Perhaps his reformation would not have come through if he had been lesser temperamental!

But we can’t blame all his descendants for what he has done! They can’t help that they are born into lutheran families!

To be catcolic is not an american thing. It has nothing to do with wich Church was the largest in America 100 years ago. It has to do with what Church Jesus himself instituted, the Catholic Church.

To day, in spite of the reformation, the Catholic Church is the biggest in the world!

Jesus has said:“For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Mat 6:14-15).

Jesus has also asked that the Church may be one. It is not a question about giving away importent catholic thruths, but to try to repair the damage that was done to church when the split came with the reformation!

Do yo think **REAL catholics ** will give away the seven sacrments, the Papacy, the transubstantiation of the Eucarist?

Well we have some catholics that want women-priests, right to abortion, homo-sex … , but they are NOT thrue to the pope and the Magisterium. They can stop calling them self catholics because the way they act weaken the whole Church!

Real catholics, and remember that they live all over the world, not only in the western secular world, will not give Church away, but they/we will try to fulfil the wish of Christ, “**that they all may be one” ** in a way that please Him.

G.Grace

 

[katherine2]

In the last 50 years we have made tremendous advances in our understanding with Lutherans including the recently signed common statement on justification.

With the Holy Spirit in charge, who knows what wonderful advances might occur in the next fifty years.

However, we have a duty to be open to the Spirit.

 

[Katholikos]

Gratias Grace wrote:

When the apostolic succesion is OK, there should be no hindrance about lutheran male priest consecrete Hosts for both lutherans and catholics if these priests believe in the transubstantiation. (What to do about the lutheran femal prisests I don’t know. They don’t fit in).

Problems: There is no unity among Lutherans themselves. They are split into “synods” with conflicting and competing doctrines. And Lutherans don’t have ‘priests’ – they have (both male and female) ‘ministers.’ A priest by definition offers sacrifice. No Lutheran “minister” can ever offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, nor would he want to. Luther insisted that all Christians were priests – the “priestood of all believers” made ordained priests unnecessary. He declared that ordination was not a sacrament. Lutherans therefore (of whatever synod) will have to become Catholic if we are ever to receive the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist side by side. The Eucharist is confected in the context of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by a priest in Apostolic Succession who has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

Peace to you and to all who post at Catholic Answers.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Shibboleth,

I loved reading Cyprian’s treatise on the unity of the Church again. Thanks for the link! What do you think of his famous, oft-quoted comment that we cannot have God for our Father if we don’t have the Church for our Mother?

Happy New Year!

JMJ Jay

 

[Gratias_Grace]

katherine2:

In the last 50 years we have made tremendous advances in our understanding with Lutherans including the recently signed common statement on justification.

With the Holy Spirit in charge, who knows what wonderful advances might occur in the next fifty years.

However, we have a duty to be open to the Spirit.

Yes much is possible with the Holy Spirit. But it’s wise to remember that the Holy Spirit is not supposed to give every one of us an individual understanding of how to act in the ecumenical prosess. We know that Jesus prayed for one Church. We got the reformation and suddenly we had split followed by split in the protestant regions (churches). What we, as catholics, can do, are to walk hand in hand with the pope and the magisterium in the economical prosess. There are a lot of problems that have to be solved, among other the different views on the Eucarist (lutheran consubstantiation vs catholic transubstantiation).

I would never, never go to an Eucaristic meal, if I were not sure that the consecrated Host really was Jesus (TOTALLY)!

Informed catholics don’t view Luther in an onedimentional way any longer. The “everything is Luthers fault” was very much a quonsequens of the Cochläus-tradion. The catholic Cochläus wrote a book about Luther in 1549 (thre years after Luthers death). This book was full of negativity against Luther. It made a catholic rigid “plattform” to watch Luther that lasted in 400 years.

Later we have had more modren catholic Luther-scientists (Joseph Lortz and his pupils, Otto Hermann Pesch and so on). It is now possible to look at Luther from more than one side. He is not only viewd negatively.

But the fact that we can understand Luther better than before, doesn’t mean that we have to reunite in a hurry with the luterans.

As a former lutheran, now catholic, I have problems in understanding how the reunion is going to take place. The Catholic Church can’t sell the THRUTH. That means that the lutherans will have to adjust much more if we are going to have a total reunion.

In the mean time we can enjoy (from time to time) that we no longer are enemies and that it is possible for us to pray, sing, praise God and say the Creed together. For the time being we have to live with the two alters (one without a sacrifice (lutheran) and one with a sacrifice (catholic)).

About the “Joint Declaration” it is only a statement that tell us that the split in the time of the reformation was unnesesary. The split came about because Luther said faith alone when catholics said faith and work together. Now both lutherans and catholics agree (in vague terms) that in some way faith and work together is nessesary for justification!

G.Grace

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Katholikos:

And Lutherans don’t have ‘priests’ – they have (both male and female) ‘ministers.’ A priest by definition offers sacrifice.

Oh, I see! I have always thought that a priest was the one who had the highest position in the local church (whatever demonion). ( In some European countries the title used for the minister is ‘priest’).

Thank you for the clarification! :clapping:

Katholikos:

Lutherans therefore (of whatever synod) will have to become Catholic if we are ever to receive the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist side by side. The Eucharist is confected in the context of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by a priest in Apostolic Succession who has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

I agree that lutheran ministers, to day, can’t consecrate the Hosts so that they become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ!!!

I don’t know how a further reunion is to be made (without the lutheran ministers becoming catholic). What I was trying to say was that they have to accsept both the sacrifice and the TOTAL PRESENCE of Christ in the Eucarist :bowdown2: before they are fit for Apostolic Succession.

G.Grace