Martin Luther

[hn160]

To be honest, I too am uncomfortable with the path some American Lutherans have taken. I am uncomfortable with some even within my own Missouri Synod (a direction I would consider more toward American evangelicalism). I’m also convinced that Luther, were he alive today, would also express (perhaps more harshly, knowing his approach), similar concerns. That said, I still consider the Augsburg to be a confession I can make with a clear conscience, and certainlty that it is a truly catholic confession.

There are, for me personally, ways I could cross the Tiber, however. Among them; unity between Rome and Orthodoxy, an exceptance by Rome of the Augsburg Confession as a Catholic confessions, something Cardinal Ratzinger once alluded to, unity between my synod and Rome, or a complete swerve away from the confessions by my synod, leaving me Rome as my only alternative.

Jon

Charles Porterfield Krauth said that "Men must be honest in their difference, if they are ever to be honest in their agreement.

Krauth, Charles P. (Charles Porterfield), 1823-1883. The conservative reformation and its theology : as represented in the Augsburg Confession, and in the history and literature of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (Kindle Location 5527). Philadelphia : J.B. Lippincott.
This is true, I would very much like to see honest talks between Rome and the LC-MS. We have much more in common than the LWF does with Rome.

 

[Sherry_G]

To be honest, I too am uncomfortable with the path some American Lutherans have taken. I am uncomfortable with some even within my own Missouri Synod (a direction I would consider more toward American evangelicalism). I’m also convinced that Luther, were he alive today, would also express (perhaps more harshly, knowing his approach), similar concerns. That said, I still consider the Augsburg to be a confession I can make with a clear conscience, and certainlty that it is a truly catholic confession.

There are, for me personally, ways I could cross the Tiber, however. Among them; unity between Rome and Orthodoxy, an exceptance by Rome of the Augsburg Confession as a Catholic confessions, something Cardinal Ratzinger once alluded to, unity between my synod and Rome, or a complete swerve away from the confessions by my synod, leaving me Rome as my only alternative.

Jon

Thanks for giving me a source so that I can learn more about the true differences that separate us. I have downloaded a pdf file so I can study the Augsburg Confession. I’ll check back with you later.

 

[PbloPicasso]

And if you didn’t say that, you’d probably be Lutheran.

Jon

Jon, I’m trying to be civil. The Protestant Reformation time should have passed and have been done with, so to speak. The problem is that it continues to reform, more like mutate, into something completely different than intended. Like in recent years we’ve seen unfaithful Catholics try to push their version of Catholicism onto everyone around them, it creates scandal and frankly hurts the masses because it confuses the hell of people - pun intended . It’s gone from reform to sabotage. Surely Lutherans and Episcopalians/Anglicans see this plainly.

I’ve read that Luther confessed on his death bead. He also was dedicated to the Blessed Mother in a very Catholic kind of way. The Lutheran Church must originally have been a Catholic Church based on the design. I hear that there are Lutherans that appear to be very Catholic looking (at least externally). I’m tires and need some sleep, so I’ll wait for a response or time to contemplate a better response to several of the posts, particularly yours.

 

[JonNC]

=PbloPicasso;8539402]Jon, I’m trying to be civil.

Oh, I know you are, and appreciate it.

The Protestant Reformation time should have passed and have been done with, so to speak. The problem is that it continues to reform, more like mutate, into something completely different than intended. Like in recent years we’ve seen unfaithful Catholics try to push their version of Catholicism onto everyone around them, it creates scandal and frankly hurts the masses because it confuses the hell of people - pun intended . It’s gone from reform to sabotage. Surely Lutherans and Episcopalians/Anglicans see this plainly.

I understand your points, and in many ways agree.

I’ve read that Luther confessed on his death bead. He also was dedicated to the Blessed Mother in a very Catholic kind of way. The Lutheran Church must originally have been a Catholic Church based on the design. **I hear that there are Lutherans that appear to be very Catholic looking (at least externally). **I’m tires and need some sleep, so I’ll wait for a response or time to contemplate a better response to several of the posts, particularly yours.

I’ve been “accused” of this recently. To my mind, Lutherans ought to resemble Catholics in many ways, similar forms of worship, simliar doctrines in many instances, etc.

Jon

 

[meme1961]

How does an individual “coming home” make all Christians one?

It doesn’t, of course. The intent there was clearly to use a single example to expound on a desired general movement and outcome.

This is nothing but empty propaganda.

Well, not really. It seems clear to me that this was an act of desire and rejoicing, not one of propaganda.

Also, Pope Benedict has repudiated the language of "return.

No, he didn’t. In fairness, I read the full transcript, and he did not repudiate the language… It seems clear he was suggesting that unification would take place under the kind of degrees and types of freedom that already exist within the Church, and what he was repudiating was the concept that unification can only take place by all non-Catholic Christians converting to Catholicism.

I would also argue that the imputation of doctrinal unity is not “spin”, as you’ve described it. It is purely logical. Lacking doctrinal/dogmatic unity, no unification can actually said to have occurred. This is not a “conservative” spin, and I suggest that if you believe that the Holy Father is prepared to abandon parts of the doctrine of the Church that you haven’t properly researched his past writings.

Clearly unification must include some theological agreement, though just how much and in what areas I could not immediately say, as the Holy Father made it clear that at least in some areas, disagreement can and must be allowed.

Which is par for the course even today in the Catholic Church. In the area of theology, I myself am a Molinist, while others are strict or lax Thomists. The Church imposes no requirement that we be one or the other, so long as our personal interpretations of that field of theology do not spill over into a repudiation or disagreement with doctrine.

 

[AnAnglican]

The quote above is quite interesting to me, as it contains repeated assertions that each imply that scripture is a PART of and in SUPPORT of a human act: teaching, reproof or correction, and training in righteousness, but that it does not stand alone.

It seems clear to me that this passage is more supportive of the Church as expressed in the Roman Catholicism than the way it is used in Lutheran churches, especially the third and fourth generation of said churches.

Both the stories of the Bereans and the Thessalonians, in combination with our Lord’s command, suggest that the proper process is one of oral Catechesis, supported by Scripture, not one of the reading of scripture alone.

This stands in my mind as the beginning of the process of falsifying Sola Scriptura, one of the five solas of the Lutheran religion. While others have had good things to say about Martin Luther’s intelligence, training and experience, I find it hard to give much respect to a man who not only is the proximate cause of a fair amount of pain and grief in my own life, but whose scholarly work can so easily be called into question (one can falsify Sola Scriptura solely by use of formal linguistic theory with no recourse to Biblical quotation what so ever).

That doesn’t change the fact that as Christians we should be sympathetic about both his personal situation and the external events that were troubling him, nor does it remove our obligation to love him, and where possible, to see the good in him and acknowledge his good intentions. Which is what I believe the Holy Father was trying to say.

If it pains our Protestant brethren when we “take pot shots” at Luther, we should be careful not to go beyond the boundaries dictated by love and charity, but it is equally important that we not stray from our obligation to the truth. Martin Luther had good reason to reprove the Church, but he strayed from righteousness when he evolved from questioning that acts of members of the Church, into questioning doctrine.

Dear meme1061:

I appreciate your comments and would like to respond to them. However, before I do, I must point out you took me out of context. I was not making a point about Sola Scriptura and in fact my post had nothing to do with it. My post was about the fact reformation is an ongoing process. I started with Scripture.for two reasons. The first is scripture is God breathed and profitble for a number of things. The second is the information I needed for my point could only be found in Scripture. The points I was trying to make was to display a pattern plainly shown in scripture where Isreal departed from good doctrine and good pratice.and the early church displayed the same pattern.

I will address your remarks in my next post.

 

[MrZetterlund]

Could God have allowed Martin Luther’s scandal be a catalyst for change in the Catholic Church? It seems to me that any clergy, not matter how high, that condones or even ordered, as in this case, the death penalty for Lutherans, would seem to be seriously theologically and morally wrong. This contradicts teachings today. Even Jesus condemned retaliation, even to those that teach about Him yet are not part of the His disciples.

Patience is a virtue. So is charity.

When I think of the Protestant Reformation, I think of the fall of the Tower of Babel in the book of Genesis. The story of The Tower of Babel is a story of, an allegory for pride.
“Let us go down and confound their tongues so they cannot understand each other’s speach” -seems to be a good expression of the spirituality that followed after the Reformation. I think the fault lies primarily with the Church at the time. Lay people, and even clergy members were concerned for the Church’s new found wealth and political power, as though the basic teachings of Christ were being abandoned. I think the phrase “Come, let us make a name for ourselves and build a tower to reach the heavens” is a good spiritual expression for this reality.
I remember reading the writings of a particular priest who’s views I side with. Even though the political power and riches of the Church were great, I don’t believe the Church should have been divided. If there were to be a reformation, it should have taken place within the spirituality of the Church, not broken off like a chip of brick.
Imagine how much greater a “reformation” it would be if the community would voice their discomfort with the Church’s wealth through showing humility by gathering together in sackloth and holding up infants as examples of what the Church should look like.
It’s important to remember that this Church doesn’t belong to any pope, priest, cardinal, clergy member or lay person, it belongs to Jesus Christ, and we have His promise that the gates of Hades (powers of Hell) will not prevail against His Church.

 

[hn160]

Today is Martin Luther’s birthday! Happy birthday Martin.

 

[Contarini]

Today is Martin Luther’s birthday! Happy birthday Martin.

We don’t know the day for sure. Given that medieval Christians baptized their babies as soon as possible, Nov. 10 is a good possibility. We know he was baptized on Nov. 11 (today) and named after the saint of the day.

So happy saint’s day, Martin Luther!

And Blessed St. Martin of Tours, pray for the soul of your namesake and for all of us who live in the world he helped create!

Edwin

 

[rinnie]

Could God have allowed Martin Luther’s scandal be a catalyst for change in the Catholic Church? It seems to me that any clergy, not matter how high, that condones or even ordered, as in this case, the death penalty for Lutherans, would seem to be seriously theologically and morally wrong. This contradicts teachings today. Even Jesus condemned retaliation, even to those that teach about Him yet are not part of the His disciples.

Patience is a virtue. So is charity.

I don’t really see what changed in the Catholic Church:shrug: Granted we have had a few bad Popes, but that has nothing to do with the teachings of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is still the same today as the day of Pentecost.

 

[Bible_Student_1]

In ways, I am like this and since I started this thread about something different than what you and Edwin want to talk about, I believe I’m in the right here. However, considering Edwin has a PhD in Bible, I would consider his remarks as unauthorized since he doesn’t have a degree in bible from ACU. My Church of Christ family believes us to be condemned to hell for misinterpreting scripture. Edwin, has asserted his own beliefs, which has nothing to do with this thread. My sources contradict him. So, he’s not hear to correct but to side track. You see, Edwin is in error as well since he is not in communion with the Holy See. And of course he will not agree with much of what I say. He’s not even Lutheran. My comments are mainly directed towards Catholics and those that subscribe to Luther’s theology. In fact, my point, that seems to be over Edwin’s head, subscribes to what many on CAF and clergy have said in recent years. It appears that if it were not for the bad example Catholics Protestantism would even exist. That’s somewhat of an overstatement, but it drives to a point. Luther may not have committed such a sin as heresy had he been dealt with more appropriately. However, he’s supporters were probably already geared towards revolting anyway. He just got caught up in the moment. Pride tears one’s ability to resist sin. I speak from experience.

Why is it ‘unauthorised’ if one has a PhD which is not from ACU? It appears that the writer may not be aware of the depth of study required to first study, be examined and obtain his MTh, and the goes through a similar but more intense progress for his PhD. Would one totally disregard the studies, effort and application required for a PhD in Biblical Studies like mine?

 

[Maciosaig]

Martin Luther was a reformer and never wanted to form a new “religion”, " I ask that men make no reference to my name, let them call themselves Christians, not Lutherans…But if you are convinced that Luther’s teachings is in accord with the gospel…then you should not discard Luther so completely, lest with him you discard also his teaching, which you nevertheless recognize as Christ’s teaching. You should rather say: Whether Luther is a rascal or a saint I do not care; his teaching is not his, but Christ’s.- Martin Luther,1522 .
The Catholic church still suffers from some issues Luther protested such as having to buy an annulment to get married ( I was told $1000.00 and the Mnsgr wanted my now wife to try and work out her differences with her ex! who in a drug fueled rage try to kill her with a sword! All this info along with the restraining order info was given to the good Mnsgr) Paying for baptisms etc! Those are just some of the abuses currently going on inside the Catholic Church. Also if Luther was such a bad man and heretic, what does that make pedophile priests? and the bishops that “hide” them and put even more innocent trusting children in danger! And as mentioned on this post before what about the Pope’s and other church higher-up’s that burned and tortured other human’s? They were no different that todays muslims but Luther was so horrible? I can go on and on and on about the present day Roman church’s anti-biblical teachings and practices but I choose not to at this time. I do feel we need another Martin Luther today someone that will adhere to God’s word and not tradition. Also not all Lutheran Synods are the same, most are very conservative and bible believing such as WELS and the LCMS along with a bunch of smaller synod’s. Unfortunately most Catholics believe the “Lutheran Church” is represented by the ELCA which is no longer “Lutheran” “evangelical” or “Christian”. Also the term “Lutheran” was a disparaging name given by the Catholic church to identify those who followed Luther. So the term Lutheran isnt used by “Lutherans” to describe themselves but is used to describe themselves as Christian’s who agree Luther’s teaching from the bible.

 

[Maciosaig]

If the truth is strange then you need to re-examine yourself.

 

[Richca]

Could God have allowed Martin Luther’s scandal be a catalyst for change in the Catholic Church? It seems to me that any clergy, not matter how high, that condones or even ordered, as in this case, the death penalty for Lutherans, would seem to be seriously theologically and morally wrong. This contradicts teachings today. Even Jesus condemned retaliation, even to those that teach about Him yet are not part of the His disciples.

Patience is a virtue. So is charity.

Possibly. Maybe God allowed Martin Luther to fall into formal heresy to prune the Church so to speak. However, God did not will that Luther fall into formal heresy which is a mortal sin. That was Luther’s own doing. God is not directly or indirectly the cause of sin.

 

[hn160]

Possibly. Maybe God allowed Martin Luther to fall into formal heresy to prune the Church so to speak. However, God did not will that Luther fall into formal heresy which is a mortal sin. That was Luther’s own doing. God is not directly or indirectly the cause of sin.

Exactly, what was Luther’s hersey? It is all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Porknpie]

The Catholic church still suffers from some issues Luther protested such as having to buy an annulment to get married ( I was told $1000.00 and the Mnsgr wanted my now wife to try and work out her differences with her ex! who in a drug fueled rage try to kill her with a sword! All this info along with the restraining order info was given to the good Mnsgr) Paying for baptisms etc!.

You are mis-informed. Are you hearing this from family members or your pastor? Please show where in the Catholic Catechism where this is taught. Marraige is a sacrament and a convenant with God. Sounds like the Monsignor did his job to try to get your wife and her ex to reconcile before moving forward with an annulment.

An on-line copy is available here

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

 

[Richca]

Exactly, what was Luther’s hersey? It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Luther held many doctrines contrary to the faith and teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[Stilldreamn]

Let me first say I am neither a Luthern or Roman Catholic. I am from the Anglican side of the house. Here is what I would say to each side;

To my Lutheran I would say you are correct that Martin Luther set out to reform the Roman Catholic and to bring her back to the faith and doctrine of the undivided church. More over, I would say there are even some Roman Catholics such as **Peter Kreeft **who would agree with you. However, God did found only one Church and it is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic with one head – Jesus Christ. You must never forget that.

I went searching for some of his writings and found this. This article brings great hope to me.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics

 

[hn160]

I went searching for some of his writings and found this. This article brings great hope to me.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics

I found the article interesting too. I sent it to my pastor because we have this coming Saturday a discussion on the Lutheran Confessions at church which we have every two weeks. We are studying the Article on Justification in both the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession along with the LC-MS response to JDDJ that was agreement between the LWF and the Vatican.

 

[guanophore]

Good to “see” you Edwin!

I don’t think any Christian group can get very far leveling this criticism against any other. Nasty polemic has been a feature of Christianity for as long as there have been Christians, I’m afraid. Certainly Luther was a master of that unfortunate art

Surely not relevant here.

It is distressing to me that, with so many substantive things to criticize in Luther, Catholics so often wish to waffle on about his “psychological problems”–a highly dubious method of historical/theological critique.

Edwin

I have to agree that a psychological lens may not be the best one through which to examine theological controversy. However, it is necessary when engaging in historical criticism and hermeneutics to take into account all the available evidence. Just as one cannot disqualify Luther’s theology on account of his psychological functioning, one cannot fail to include this aspect of the man from his thoughts and writings.

For Catholics, one of the main elements of recognizing Truth in the writings of a theologian is the sanctity of the person’s life. Just as many of the papal statements can be rejected when we consider their source, so must we consider that Luther’s state of mind did influence many of his statements and writings.