Martino, Dougherty retire from Scranton [CN-USA]

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dioceseofscranton.org/News/BishopMartino’sStatmentAugust31,2009.asp

You can read his complete statement here. If you click ‘home’ and scroll down you can watch the news conference. I think he was very honest and we needn’t read more into his decision to resign than he gave us. I also think it took courage to make the decision he made. I think his timing is perfect. I hope - I am convinced - he will continue to be a voice for life, and that he will continue to teach. He is knowledgeable and eloquent.

He will remain in my prayers.
 
Joe_5859 said:
As I recall, there was a time where the majority of Jesus’ followers weren’t willing to follow Him either.
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True, but the Vatican expects a bishop to be orthodox and to be able to handle his priests and laity. A bishop who simply shouts from the mountain tops but who’s diocese is in disarray is displeasing to the Vatican.
If simply being orthodox was enough to be a bishop then there’d be no need for any “screening”. Bishops are expected to be men who can lead others. A lot of discernment goes into who will fit best into any particular diocese, they don’t just fire darts at a map.
 
NewEnglandPries said:
True, but the Vatican expects a bishop to be orthodox and to be able to handle his priests and laity. A bishop who simply shouts from the mountain tops but who’s diocese is in disarray is displeasing to the Vatican.
If simply being orthodox was enough to be a bishop then there’d be no need for any “screening”. Bishops are expected to be men who can lead others. A lot of discernment goes into who will fit best into any particular diocese, they don’t just fire darts at a map.
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Fair enough. But I don’t think we need to presume that the Vatican is “displeased” with Bishop Martino’s service, nor do I think we need to presume that his entire tenure as Bishop of the Diocese of Scranton can be likened to “fir[ing] darts at a map.”

I’m not from that diocese, but I do know several people that are and I can say that, at the very least, there are some people in that diocese who are happy with the job he did and felt his actions were necessary and long overdue.
 
Joe,

In his own words Bishop Martino states the he was unable to effectively lead neither the laity nor the clergy. I can’t get over closing nearly half the churches in the diocese. This is not the work of someone trying to find answers to a problem, but instead someone who throws the problem away.

Our parish has a school and a friend has been on the education panel for years. Enrollment kept falling and the school was close to closing. Our parish also had fewer and fewer families every year.

Five years ago we got a new pastor. School enrollment is now nearly double what it was before he arrived. My friend says that it is great to work with a pastor who wants the school. The past few saw it as a financial millstone.

There are nearly 10% more families in the parish than 5 years ago. The weekly offering is up about 40% in 5 years.

The Bishop Martino’s of this world would just close the school and moan about declining Mass attendance. This guy’s problem was ego.
 
rep140 said:
Joe,

In his own words Bishop Martino states the he was unable to effectively lead neither the laity nor the clergy. I can’t get over closing nearly half the churches in the diocese. This is not the work of someone trying to find answers to a problem, but instead someone who throws the problem away.

Our parish has a school and a friend has been on the education panel for years. Enrollment kept falling and the school was close to closing. Our parish also had fewer and fewer families every year.

Five years ago we got a new pastor. School enrollment is now nearly double what it was before he arrived. My friend says that it is great to work with a pastor who wants the school. The past few saw it as a financial millstone.

There are nearly 10% more families in the parish than 5 years ago. The weekly offering is up about 40% in 5 years.

The Bishop Martino’s of this world would just close the school and moan about declining Mass attendance. This guy’s problem was ego.
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I’m happy to hear that your parish school is thriving. That is a great blessing. But have you met Bishop Martino in order to accurately say his “problem was ego”? Have you spoken to anyone who has lived in the Diocese of Scranton? I would hesitate to speak so ill of a bishop unless I was (1) 100% sure the information I had was correct and (2) firmly convicted that it was necessary for me to cast the bishop in a less than favorable light for the good of another’s soul.

Anecdotally, I know someone from the diocese who told me that the school and parish closings were necessary and long overdue. The financial problems were severe. Absent concrete information to the contrary, I have no reason to doubt this. I would presume the Bishop was acting in the best interest of his flock.
 
diggerdomer said:
I don’t know her or her writing, but that quotation you cited is consistent with what the USCCB teaches. Meaning, the USCCB never said Catholics cannot vote for Obama (or any political candidate).
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They never said it was OK to vote for him either. Clearly there are problems with Catholics voting for someone with a pro-abortion voting record like Obama’s.
 
rep140,

You should be sorry he was not your bishop. I do live in the diocese, and he was fantastic. Strongly supportive of both natural family planning instruction and the complete revision of the pre-Cana program from one that couldn’t be identified as “Catholic” to one based on the theology of the body.

In the Politics Daily article, what exactly is objectionable about any of the things cited? He has a responsibility for the souls in his diocese, and he was not afraid to take unpopular, orthodox, and public stands. He is, IMO, exactly what the institutional church needs more of.

Regarding parish closings, I lived for a time in a town that had four, count 'em, four churches in a town of three thousand people total (not just Catholics). There is no way that many physical buildings were needed. The diocese was in very poor financial condition (I think the financials are on the diocesan website). A close family member was a facilitator for another cluster of parishes in a small city in the diocese that were consolidating - - all within walking distance. And do you know what? In 2008, people at these parishes, which were originally ethnically based, still did not want to worship with those of different ethnicities! It was mind boggling. The outright hatred and disrespect for the bishop, who was trying to do his job (left by the prior bishop, who apparently did not address these issues) was astounding.

Bishop Martino, you will be sorely missed.
 
Closing almost half of a diocese’s parishes in one swoop is a very delicate matter. You can’t just order half of your parishes closed and expect no pushback. Was he paying attention to what happened when Boston tried that (and it wasn’t even half!)?

And this incident is bizzare:
parish was holding a regular voter-education forum on the election, featuring discussion of a document, “Faithful Citizenship,” the election guide endorsed almost unanimously by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, or USCCB. Martino showed up at the parish hall unannounced, causing a stir. Then he took the microphone and proceeded to critique the organizers for not using his own letter on abortion as the basis of the discussion.
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When a nun at the forum reminded Martino about the document of the enitre bishops conference Martino responded, “No USCCB document is relevant in this diocese. The USCCB doesn’t speak for me,” Martino declared. “The only relevant document … is my letter. There is one teacher in this diocese, and these points are not debatable.”
politicsdaily.com/2009/08/31/scranton-bishop-joseph-martino-bidens-nemesis-resigns-under-c/#comments
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New England,

I think your characterization of parish closings in “one swoop” is misleading. The process of deciding how to reorganize the diocese occurred over, I think, at least 18 months, with regular public meetings and groups organized in each parish to implement the restructuring. Basically, the diocese said, look, we can’t continue the way we have been going. Please tell us how you can all work together - - what does your parish do well, what does the neigboring parish do well, what can you do together. Parishes had every opportunity to be, if not totally in control of their fate, to have a significant say in how the restructuring would take place. In some areas, the adjacent parishes were unable to even agree enough to submit proposals to the diocese as to what to do. It was unbelievable. The diocese gave parishes every opportunity to be part of the process - - this was not a top-down dictate, unless as stated above they couldn’t even compromise enough to submit a proposal.

Further, I am not aware of any alternatives that were presented beyond, “don’t close MY parish!” No one addressed the severe financial situation the diocese was in in any constructive way, besides Bishop Martino.

At the event in Honesdale, it is not bizarre for the shepherd to actually lead, or maybe it is, and that is a really telling and sad commentary on the state of the Church.
 
choose_to_love said:
rep140,
You should be sorry he was not your bishop. I do live in the diocese, and he was fantastic. Strongly supportive of both natural family planning instruction and the complete revision of the pre-Cana program from one that couldn’t be identified as “Catholic” to one based on the theology of the body.

In the Politics Daily article, what exactly is objectionable about any of the things cited? He has a responsibility for the souls in his diocese, and he was not afraid to take unpopular, orthodox, and public stands. He is, IMO, exactly what the institutional church needs more of.

Regarding parish closings, I lived for a time in a town that had four, count 'em, four churches in a town of three thousand people total (not just Catholics). There is no way that many physical buildings were needed. The diocese was in very poor financial condition (I think the financials are on the diocesan website). A close family member was a facilitator for another cluster of parishes in a small city in the diocese that were consolidating - - all within walking distance. And do you know what? In 2008, people at these parishes, which were originally ethnically based, still did not want to worship with those of different ethnicities! It was mind boggling. The outright hatred and disrespect for the bishop, who was trying to do his job (left by the prior bishop, who apparently did not address these issues) was astounding.

Bishop Martino, you will be sorely missed.
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Choose to Love, I echo your sentiments. I will miss Bishop Martino, also. He was a very strong leader, uncompromising in matters of faith and morals. He was an awesome Bishop! The Churches and schools that have been mentioned should have been closed a long time ago. Some of them are unstructurally safe and financially burdensome to fix. Demographics play a big part in all of this as well, not to mention the fact that only 1/3 of Catholics are supporting the church. You can’t keep everything running on only 30%.

Please don’t get me started about the Honesdale incident. I know members of the parish and others who were present at the meeting. Bishop Martino was given a heads up about what was happening there. Besides, some people really do have a problem with authority…oh yeah, and it was the liberals that had the problem if you get my meaning. :mad:
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choose_to_love said:
New England,

I think your characterization of parish closings in “one swoop” is misleading. The process of deciding how to reorganize the diocese occurred over, I think, at least 18 months, with regular public meetings and groups organized in each parish to implement the restructuring. Basically, the diocese said, look, we can’t continue the way we have been going. Please tell us how you can all work together - - what does your parish do well, what does the neigboring parish do well, what can you do together. Parishes had every opportunity to be, if not totally in control of their fate, to have a significant say in how the restructuring would take place. In some areas, the adjacent parishes were unable to even agree enough to submit proposals to the diocese as to what to do. It was unbelievable. The diocese gave parishes every opportunity to be part of the process - - this was not a top-down dictate, unless as stated above they couldn’t even compromise enough to submit a proposal.
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Obviously I was not there, but let’s face it, closing almost half of your parishes is going to cause quite a stir. O’Malley faced huge problems closing a significant number yet he never lost control of his diocese as a whole.
At the event in Honesdale, it is not bizarre for the shepherd to actually lead, or maybe it is, and that is a really telling and sad commentary on the state of the Church.
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Once again, obviously I was not there, BUT the behavior discribed is not someone who is leading. Rather it comes across as someone desperately trying to look like he’s in charge. I fail to see how a parish could go wrong by discussing a USCCB document.

He may be a holy and saintly man, but it appears that he was in over his head in Scranton.
 
NewEnglandPries said:
He may be a holy and saintly man, but it appears that he was in over his head in Scranton.
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Nope, could not disagree more. He is extremely intellegent and competent. The choices he made were necessary but certainly did not come without much heartbreak. I feel like he was trying to move Scranton toward the future while holding tight to the catholic teachings that so many others find it so easy to “overlook” for political reasons.

I read on these boards so often questions about where are the voices from our Bishops speaking out for catholic teachings. I think I see one leaving Scranton right now.
 
I am heartily sorry to hear of the retirement of Bishops Martino and Dougherty.
I am sure that from the beginning it was difficult for Scrantonians to accept a new bishop
after the retirement of the personable, hometown bred Bishop Timlin. I know Bishop Martino did the only thing possible to keep the diocese solvent= and that was to close
down the many parishes that he did. I can understand how these people felt when their
churches were closed, but the demographics of the area have changed, people are leaving the area for less depressed towns, a lot of people do not attend church regularly and
therefore there are less people to support these parishes especially in these depressed
times. Further, there is the shortage of priests.

It is sad to see the secularism of today’s church with its liberal clergy and
Catholics more concerned with their pocketbooks than the Church’s tenets. The
local politicians cannot tolerate being told No= just like today’s youth. Kudos to
Bishop Martino for standing up for what is right. Imagine speakers on abortion, same sex
marriage etc. in Catholic universities. For shame. Let there be a mass exodus of
those that cannot accept Catholic dogma. Let there be a smaller, purer Church.
As it is said, at the end, there will only be a remnant of the faithful.

Come soon Lord Jesus.
 
It’s good to hear from some people in Scranton. Thank you for sharing your experiences. 👍 I think your posts support the point I was trying to make, which is that we outsiders don’t know nearly all the facts, and so we ought to give the bishop the benefit of the doubt. (The Diocese of Scranton’s financial info is right on the diocesan website if anyone cares to look into the matter in more depth.)

Though I am not from Scranton, I know that in my diocese there are also many parish and school closings. Our bishop does not make these decisions willy-nilly, but only after a long period of time, which includes many, many meetings with many different people and many different committees. No bishop wants to close any parishes or schools. It’s a sad, but necessary, reality.

I’m not sure if this is the same in Scranton (thought it sounds like it might be from some of the other posts), but in my diocese, “back in the day” ethnic parishes were quite common. Thus, in some cases, there were Catholic parishes literally two blocks from each other simply because each ethnic group had to have their own parish. As the years went by, the strong ethnic communities faded into the melting pot and we’re left with several parishes in close proximity, each struggling to pay the bills. In cases like this, how can it be justified to keep all the parishes open? It can’t.
 
Joe_5859 said:
It’s good to hear from some people in Scranton. Thank you for sharing your experiences. 👍 I think your posts support the point I was trying to make, which is that we outsiders don’t know nearly

all the facts, and so we ought to give the bishop the benefit of the doubt. (The Diocese of Scranton’s financial info is right on the diocesan website if anyone cares to look into the matter in more depth.)

Though I am not from Scranton, I know that in my diocese there are also many parish and school closings. Our bishop does not make these decisions willy-nilly, but only after a long period of time, which includes many, many meetings with many different people and many different committees. No bishop wants to close any parishes or schools. It’s a sad, but necessary, reality.

I’m not sure if this is the same in Scranton (thought it sounds like it might be from some of the other posts), but in my diocese, “back in the day” ethnic parishes were quite common. Thus, in some cases, there were Catholic parishes literally two blocks from each other simply because each ethnic group had to have their own parish. As the years went by, the strong ethnic communities faded into the melting pot and we’re left with several parishes in close proximity, each struggling to pay the bills. In cases like this, how can it be justified to keep all the parishes open? It can’t.
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Hi Joe5859, Bishop Martino was a blessing to this area, and he was heartsick over everything that took place here, but he did what had to be done. This was a very long, drawn out process.

You are correct about the ethnic parishes. Some still exist to this day. In the town where I live, our church is referred to as the Irish parish and the church across town is the Italian parish. A few miles up the road is the Polish church. It’s comical when you think about it, but, these churches are still referred to this way. I actually had someone say to me, “I thought you belonged to the Italian church.” I cracked up laughing and told her, “nope, I’m a mutt. I can belong to any church I want.” Anyway, all joking aside, about 7 miles east of here, there is a small town with 4 churches and 3 of them stand right next to each other. The other church is across the street. Mind you this is a very small town with probably about 2-3,000 people. There is simply no need to have 4 churches in a town this size. Like I said in an earlier post, demographics have changed and these parishes simply cannot be supported. It is the same way in Scranton and other towns that are small. You could walk out the door of one church, cross the street and walk right into the door of another church. The economy is taking its toll on everyone and people are not giving as much as they used to which isn’t helping matters. It’s sad, but it needed to be done.
 
Personally, I am very disappointed at this. Bishop Martino seemed to be standing up for Catholic orthodoxy in a diocese that likely needed it badly. I am particularly concerned that he lost the faith of his priests, who owe him fidelity and support, not dissention.

I can understand the Vatican’s concern (if indeed this did come from the Vatican) about the situation if the bishop lost the faith of his flock and his leadership became ineffectual. If that is what happened, it is a particularly sad state, but I’m not sure they had much choice.

But, I do not know the facts, so I will reserve judgment.
 
For all you Scrantonites (Scrantonians?), know that your bishop (sadly) is not alone in the lack of respect he has received from his flock:

In Cleveland, Cops as Vimps

It looks like Cleveland is having to close 1/3 of their parishes. After the closing Mass of one parish, people were yelling “Judas” at the bishop as he walked to his car flanked by policemen. :eek:

We need to pray for our bishops. It seems that many of us Catholics could use a refresher course in the theology of the episcopacy.
 
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