Mary - Amateur Catholic Apologist conversation needs help

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1st - again, I wouldn’t have had the depth nor passion behind my apologist conversations if it weren’t for the help of this forum!

Months have gone by, with my relationship with my non-denom girlfriend. Her father, a pastor, and intense scholar of the Bible feels he truly has the truest form of religion within his church he founded. Of course, his daughter (or himself) don’t understand and don’t agree Catholicism.

I had a canoe trip with her father (and other “Saved Christians”) in Canada for 4 days over the 4th of July. One night, over a camp fire…the conversation finally made its way to religious differences. They all have recieved the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit (they refer to as Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and explain how it’s the fullest prayer one could pray, and that they are passionate about that style.

They Questioned me on

Salvation
Purgatory
Mary
Confession

etc -

I was able to at least battle to a stalemate most of the topics, except for conversations on Mary. The Pastor told me “I don’t mean it to brag or boast, but I’ve thoroughly read and examined the Bible, and no where does it say that we should be praying to Mary.” He also added “I don’t even understand the purpose of the Rosary…it doesn’t talk about it in the Bible.”

I didn’t have a responce 😦 or a good one.
Any suggestions as we will continue this conversation via a fire some night in the soon future?

Thanks!
 
Take a look at the Magnificat in th Gospel of Luke. It’s gotta be chapter 1, but don’t ask me the verses since it’s not in front of me.

“My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God, My savior, for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant. From this day forward all generations will call me blessed…”

What’s not Biblical about the Hail Mary

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee… - The angels’ greeting to Mary.

Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb - Elizabeth’s greeting to Mary

Jesus - the name of the Savior

Holy Mary, mother of God - Is Jesus, the Son of God? Is Mary his mother? OK, no problem here either.

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Asking a fellow Christian, THE proto-Christian, if you will, to pray for us. Also OK.

Remember too, the contemplation of the rosary mysteries as part of the paryer of the rosary. We meditate on episodes in the life and mission of Jesus Christ against a backdrop of prayers.
 
Johenz’ answer is great. I would just add that your friend’s premise is that one should not do anything that isn’t spelled out in the Bible. Catholics do not share that premise. But the Bible does tell us that part of our inheritance under the New Covenant is access to the souls of the justified: the “spirits of the righteous made perfect,” Heb. 12:23.

Also consider these two verses from Revelation.

“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints,” Rev. 5:8.

“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel,” Rev. 8:3-4.

These verses show (1) those in heaven have access to our prayers, and (2) those in heaven can offer our prayers to God.
 
Believe me this “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” is not spelled out in the Bible either. At best it might be implied. No where when addressing the problems of the churches, does Paul tell people, you are so carnal, seek baptism in the Holy Spirit!!!

They read the rest of the new testament through their understanding of the book of Acts.
 
I will only be able to answer a few for now, but I will give you more when I can. First ask him this, “Where in the Bible is Sola Scriptura? Where in the Bible is Sola Fide?” Then he would go through his Bible and find references that point out the use of scripture, but they do not point out that scripture alone is a doctrine. When you confront him on that he may try to find verses that say that traditions of men are not of God or something like that. Then explain to him that Sacred Tradition is of God and is entirely different from the tradtions of men.

I will get back to you on those main issues of yours. I have to get ready for church now. I have read the entire Protestant Bible and now I am working on the Catholic Bible. He can not back up even the basis for his beliefs which are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

God speed.

Vigis
 
jmoburg said:
1st - again, I wouldn’t have had the depth nor passion behind my apologist conversations if it weren’t for the help of this forum!

Months have gone by, with my relationship with my non-denom girlfriend. Her father, a pastor, and intense scholar of the Bible feels he truly has the truest form of religion within his church he founded. Of course, his daughter (or himself) don’t understand and don’t agree Catholicism.

I had a canoe trip with her father (and other “Saved Christians”) in Canada for 4 days over the 4th of July. One night, over a camp fire…the conversation finally made its way to religious differences. They all have recieved the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit (they refer to as Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and explain how it’s the fullest prayer one could pray, and that they are passionate about that style.

They Questioned me on

Salvation
Purgatory
Mary
Confession

etc -

I was able to at least battle to a stalemate most of the topics, except for conversations on Mary. The Pastor told me “I don’t mean it to brag or boast, but I’ve thoroughly read and examined the Bible, and no where does it say that we should be praying to Mary.” He also added “I don’t even understand the purpose of the Rosary…it doesn’t talk about it in the Bible.”

I didn’t have a responce 😦 or a good one.
Any suggestions as we will continue this conversation via a fire some night in the soon future?

Thanks!
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Let’s start with Purgatory. Though Purgatory may be a little obscure in the Bible it is nevertheless logical. Without Purgatory mnay major issues will not make much sense. Such as God does not allow people with the stain of sin to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So what happens to those people who forgot to ask God for forgiveness from a few minor sins? Are they condemned to Hell? Nope. They go through Purgatory.

Okay first tell him this. Purgatory is not a place of second chances. It is a place of punishment and purification. Now he might bring up the point that if our sins are forgiven then why must we be punished? The answer is simple. God demands justice. A murderer may be sorry for what he has done and may be forgiven, but that does not change the fact that he will be sent to jail. The only way not to suffer punishment through Purgatory is to confess your sins on your deathbed and perform an act of penance. Acts of penance compensate for the punishments from God. He will accept them if they be true.

Also, Purgatory is found in the Bible, but not the word “purgatory”. It is found in 2 Maccabees 12:38-46; Rev 21:27; Matt 5:8; Heb 12:14; Matt 5:48; 1 John 5:16-17; Matt 12:32; 2 Cor 5:10; 2 Tim 1:18; Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) 7:33; 1 Cor 15:29; 1 Cor 3:12-15; Psalm 99:8; Mark 9:49; Heb 9:27; Matt 25:31-46; Rev 6:9-10; Rev 8:3-4: Luke 16:19-31: Matt 17:1-8; Isaiah 6:5-7.

Purgatory is not a place of second chances. One must be inside the graces of God (saved) to enter Purgatory. There (it is not known whether or not Purgatory is a place or a state) they soul is purified and punished of any sin or punishment that is due. I hope I have explained this well. I will continue this later.

God speed.

Vigis
 
jmoburg said:
1st - again, I wouldn’t have had the depth nor passion behind my apologist conversations if it weren’t for the help of this forum!

Months have gone by, with my relationship with my non-denom girlfriend. Her father, a pastor, and intense scholar of the Bible feels he truly has the truest form of religion within his church he founded. Of course, his daughter (or himself) don’t understand and don’t agree Catholicism.

I had a canoe trip with her father (and other “Saved Christians”) in Canada for 4 days over the 4th of July. One night, over a camp fire…the conversation finally made its way to religious differences. They all have received the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit (they refer to as Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and explain how it’s the fullest prayer one could pray, and that they are passionate about that style.

They Questioned me on

Salvation
Purgatory
Mary
Confession

etc -

I was able to at least battle to a stalemate most of the topics, except for conversations on Mary. **The Pastor told me “I don’t mean it to brag or boast, but I’ve thoroughly read and examined the Bible, and no where does it say that we should be praying to Mary.” He also added “I don’t even understand the purpose of the Rosary…it doesn’t talk about it in the Bible.” **
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I didn’t have a response 😦 or a good one.
Any suggestions as we will continue this conversation via a fire some night in the soon future?

Thanks!My dear brother,

You missed the fundamental error that they function under. Sola Scriptura. He handed it to you on a silver platter. He believes that everything must come from within the pages of the Bible and yet the Bible nowhere says that. Listen carefully to this Bible study on this topic by John Martignoni. Sola Scriptura - The Bible Alone?

I strongly suggest that you spend the $6.00 on Beginning Apologetics #1.
https://shop.catholicapologetics.com/images/1166338754852833803511.jpeg
Which will help you immensely with all these issues. That whole series is worth more than it costs and is one of the best studies that I’ve ever encountered in any Christian church.

If you want something specific to Marian beliefs, I suggest you also invest in Beginning Apologetics # 6.
https://shop.catholicapologetics.com/images/1166426717048-385201971.jpeg
You won’t be disappointed! SJCS Link

Oh yeah…on the Rosary…ask him how he missed a prayerful meditation of the life of Christ. He showed his ignorance there…
 
Again-- I appreciate everyone’s wisdom. I happen to have John’s workbooks yet haven’t worked through them yet. As I began to dive back into the Catholic Faith… I’ve purchased many books and CDs… and its frustrating that the next thing I need it TIME to read and digest all that I want to know.

In general conversation, it’s hard to set up all the arguments, such as why sola scriptura isn’t correct. I’m attempting to put together a logical written document that I will give them.

On the good ol canoe trip, they kept referencing John 3:16-

I asked them “Do you think the Catholic Church doesn’t believe that passage?” and they didn’t have a good response for that either.

One of the men on the trip, is a former Catholic, who wasn’t a devout Catholic, comes from a broken home, and found their Non-denominational church a better home than his Catholic one. This convert said to me “You go to our church (probably 200-250 members that gather from a small town) and everyone is a living testimony to our church itself…and so many Catholics are dead in their faith” – I totally agree with him, I was one of those dead catholics in the past, but I asked him “Did you ever fully give Catholicism a chance, or did you just jump ship because of the simplicity and welcoming open arms to be the family you didn’t have?” He paused … and he knows he never tried fully the Catholic Faith.

To the Pastor/Preacher, who truly is a great man and father, and potentially my someday father in law, I asked him if he ever studied the Catechism of the Catholic Faith - and he said no. I believe after our conversation, that he at least admits that he cannot have such a bitterness towards the Catholic faith, for he does not understand. And picking up facts (true or false) from former catholics, or Catholics who do not understand, is not the best source to use when decided to judge the Catholic Faith.

Ah… I vent to this forum, and feel support and strength from this forum, I just wish I could have all of you behind me (kind of like the Verizon cell phone commercials as the network crowd follows the cell phone user around) when I enter in these conversations.
 
jmoburg said:
Ah… I vent to this forum, and feel support and strength from this forum, I just wish I could have all of you behind me (kind of like the Verizon cell phone commercials as the network crowd follows the cell phone user around) when I enter in these conversations.
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:eek: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :extrahappy:
 
Also, I forgot about this, he may debate the Maccabees part. He will say that the Catholic Church added books to the Bible in the 16th century. Not true. You see it was always in the Bible from the very early years of the Church. It was accepted as a tradition of sort for it to be in the Bible. Well when Martin Luther could not disprove Purgatory and other things because of Maccabees and several other books, so he decided to get rid of them. It was then that the Catholic Church decided to make it a book of the Bible officially and the rest of the Roman Canon. He said that they were not in the Jewish Canon thus they are invalid. The only problem with that is that the Hebrew Canon of today was established in 100 AD. It was after the fullfilment of the Old Covenant. The Jewish priesthood had no authority to decide which books were valid. Not only that, but many of the books that were once part of the canon before the Romans defeated the Jews in 67 AD (I think that is the year) were destroyed. So Maccabees only remained in Greek. The Jewish fathers decided that only books in Hebrew should be made canonical, and not only that they did not have access to the other books. There you have it. His historical debate bears no merit.
 
The Blessed Virgin Mary is wonderful to discuss, but many times very intimidating in an “ecumenical” environment. In my experiences dealing with Protestants of various sorts, it is always helpful to begin with asking a question:

“So, how exactly does the soul of Mary MAGNIFY the Lord?”

Because it is in scripture, it HAS to MAGNIFY the Lord. But how Mary magnifies the Lord is the key. There answer does two things: First, it points out where they really are on being open to revelation. Secondly, it plants a seed that they may never have considered, even though it is in scripture.

The four Marian Dogmas of the Church are:


  1. *]Mary as the Mother of God (Theotokos)
    *]Mary as Perpetual Virgin
    *]Mary as Immaculately Conceived
    *]Mary as Bodily Assumed
    Mary as the Mother of God originated out of misunderstandings of Jesus (Nestorianism in particular). Each of the Dogmas build on the previous understanding. Good books in addition to the ones you listed:

    John Paul II, Pope, Redemptoris Mater: The Mother of the Redeemer. In book form entitled, *Mary: God’s Yes to Man: *Introduction by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger and Commentary by Hans Urs von Balthasar. San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press 1988

    Mateo, Father, *Refuting the Attack on Mary; A Defense of Marian Doctrines, *San Diego, CA: Catholic Answers Inc., 1993

    Gambero, Luigi S.M., Mary and the Fathers of the Church, San Francisco CA: Ignatius Press 1999.

    I hope this helps a little.

    Peace,

    MilesJesu
 
You should start by discussing your personal relationship with Jesus. Then discuss Mary’s relationship with her son, then move onto discussing relationships among believers. argue from the lesser to the greater, the lesser being your personal relationship, the greater being communion of the saints.

The fact that you have a personal relationship with Jesus will likely alone throw him off his track
 
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jmoburg:
…They all have recieved the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit (they refer to as Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and explain how it’s the fullest prayer one could pray, and that they are passionate about that style.
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Charismatic Catholics also pray in tongues. There is a Conference of Charismatics this weekend in Toronto.
 
Use the Bible Cheat Sheet to help you learn how to defend the Faith from Scripture.
geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/biblecheatsheet.html

I have found this at least captures attention, then, after a time, I move on to show how the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers interpreted Scripture and how that same meaning has been preserved through the last two millenia in the Catholic Church.
 
Mary-Amateur Catholic Apologist etc.
You’re a brave soul, and I wish you well. You’re in a tough position and it likely won’t get a lot easier for some time. On the other hand, you have a wonderful opportunity to spread the fullness of the faith.
The advice and consul given in these responses are quite good (I’m an amateur as well). I’ve read several books myself, and am in a better position to respond to the “attacks” based upon misinformation and misunderstanding of Catholicism, but I have a tremendous way to go myself.
The advice to talk about your relationship with Christ as a beginning point I thought was very valuable. I have found Karl Keating’s book “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” a good reference book on specific topics.

God bless and good luck!!!
 
Invite them to “help” you out by asking them to join you at a Mass someday.
Tell them you are wondering if they can “catch” anything you may have missed or not noted that happens in the Mass that is not right.🙂 😉

I think they will be a bit surprised to see what they will see when actually there.

The biggest shock for one former co-worker who joined me at Mass years ago was how we stand for the Gospel. 👍

She always thought it was silly all the standing and sitting and kneeling, until it just hit her like a ton of bricks one day.🙂 I am sure there may be different reactions in your group of friends- but at the very least they will have a better understanding up close and personal than at a distance.

The only thing you need to make clear is how they can not recieve.

But, may you be guided by the Holy Spirit in this and my heart is with you.
 
One apologetics resource you may be unaware of is the Bible Christian Society.

There you will find a lot of talks on apologetics by John Martinogni that you can download for free. One of them is “Mary and the Bible.”

If you find the talk worthwhile (and I think you will!), just hand a copy to your Protestant friend and ask him where he thinks John went wrong.

biblechristiansociety.com/download
 
It is very true that there are Catholics who “pray in tongues”. In fact, as a non-denom Christian, my first positive opinions of the Catholics as believers were from Catholics who used this gift or had this experience. They were just LIKE we were – passionate for the truth, loved the Lord, lived the faith, but were very NON-schizmatic about this. Unlike the Protestants who confessed this experience and prayer life, they were HUMBLE, and didn’t act “holier-than-thou” and were NOT argumentative about it. I was very impressed.

I think the Catholic Church has done a superb job of recognizing everyone’s private spiritual lives, gifts, methods of prayer and even the charismatic experiences in a way which is not divisive. There is room for everyone, and no one is allowed to consider themselves above another, more spiritual than another, or holier than another.

At least, that is what I gleaned from my fellow Charismatic Catholics over the years. I just couldn’t figure out why their experience didn’t lead them OUT of the Catholic Church! 🙂 I thought SURELY the Holy Spirit would tell them to GET OUT.

Boy, was I ignorant!:o
 
Nita said:
Hi jmoburg,

The following website gives Scripture passages for Church teaching concerning Mary; also early church Fathers.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

Nita
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Thanks for the good link!

The only problems a person MAY have in using many of the quotes given on that site, are some of the dates of the early Church Father’s quotes. The way many Protestants have gotten around many of these doctrines, is to establish teachings that the early church “strayed from the truth” and “became corrupted by heresies” quite soon after the Apostles died. Many teachers have come on the scenes since the reformation, claiming that anything written or recorded after about 100 A.D. is questionable, not inspired and not to be regarded. (Of course, NOT unless they are affirming one of their own “pet” doctrines. 🙂 )

One of the most popular set of beliefs, which often accompanies the modern day “rapture” teachings, is that darkness crept into the faith and it has been “being restored” in the last few centuries! They usually misquote the prophecy in the Old Testament to Israel, about the restoration being “line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.” By taking prophecies given TO ISRAEL, they can build a whole reformation doctrinal belief system which sanctions the reformers and “quick, powerful, restorative work” just before the “rapture.”

The problem is that it requires extra biblical, recent private revelation, misapplication of scriptures, and an intense anti-Catholic agenda.

Believe me, I know all about this – having been taught all that stuff all of my life. Unless you can present an apologetics outline which includes their accepted Biblical passages, along with some very early historical proofs – you will not get far.

My best advice from my own Protestant or non-denom experiences is to stick with doctrines that are clearly supported in scriptures. It can be done. Once you use any extra biblical sources, or any Catholic materials and they realize you are doing it, they will tune you out. There are PLENTY of scriptural passages which make them THINK, and that they cannot explain away – so build any apologetics discussion around the Bible passages which will cause them to dig deeper.
 
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