Mary and her children

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hvg says,
Not at all 🙂 If all you get from me is a desire to think for yourself, instead of being spoon-fed what to believe
You liked it…and yet, for some reason, I received an “Infraction” for apparently I “Insulted Other Member(s)”… :confused:

I have to say…I was talking about a desire. And that a desire to think for one self was better than a desire to be spoon-fed…how is that an insult? :confused:

I hope others who have used the term similarly do not get similar infringement notices. 😦
I think that one quote separates Catholic Thinking from your thinking the most.
Please, show me how.
 
Alright, let’s try reading the passage with no Catholic “bias”. In other words lets:
  1. Read the passages literally as there is nowhere else to go since I’ve already rejected any other understandings…
  2. …which includes rejecting the understanding taught by great Christian scholars and theologians from ancient times.
  3. Pretend like Bible just fell from the sky and was already written in English.
You are right. It’s so obvious now . Mary was not ever-virgin because the Bible CLEARLY mentions Jesus’ brothers. I mean, when the Bible says that he had brothers the author clearly meant that he had blood-brothers, right? :whacky:

Now, have you seriously read those passages without any Protestant bias? :ehh:

Pax. :signofcross:
Gandalf-

Can I get you to apply this same rigor to John 6:51-58?

I didn’t think so.

Fortunately, we do know some Greek and some Aramaic and we understand why distant relatives were called “brothers”.

Lot was literally Abraham’s nephew, but scripture calls him “brother”, yada, yada, yada. You know the rest…

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Exacly!

The Church isn’t teaching that Perpetual Virginity is clearly taught in the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible explicitly say that Blessed Theotokos is an ever-virgin.
Again, great 🙂

I am glad we are finally seeing some agreement!
It contains many clues - but not a clear statement (same applies to the trinity as well though).
This is interesting, as all the ‘clues’ so far have been hinting at the opposite…it is only with the outside ‘traditions’ that the idea even comes into the Bible.
However that isn’t a problem because we do not work under the
“Bible-only” assumption, which is unfortunately nowhere taught in the Bible and in the end only leads to circular reasoning (as being demonstrated in the Sola Scriptura thread).
of course, Traditions isn’t circular, because Traditions is backed up in the Bible, which is proven right by Traditions! No, it is no circle…it is bigger than that. A loop? A ring? :rolleyes:
But at the same time the Bible does not say that Mary had other children. If you interpret the scriptures correctly then you will not come to that conclusion.
No, simply - no.

The Bible highly suggests that mary had other children, all of those verses I listed in the first post suggest that Mary had other children. It is only when you look at it through the glasses of Tradition that you start having the problems you need to try to explain away.
All arguments against the perpetual virginity can be easily DEconstructed (such as the ‘until’ argument).
And even then, the argument is not de-constructed - for the argument with “until” is not that they definitely had sex after, but that it suggests they did.

This has still not been shown to be false.

Moreso, the reasoning behind ‘hiding’ the other brothers has been shown to be false, and has not been responded to yet. (go back to the first two pages…)
 
The bible is based on Catholic teaching.
No! You’re wrong! 😉 God clearly gave us a book full of various literary forms, difficult and abstract language, culture-specific idioms etc. so that we limited humans must study Greek and Hebrew, the ancient cultures and spend all our time reading the Bible to be able to start making some at least somehow sound conclusions (and even then we will still have many disagreements on many parts). While doing that he chose to ignore the fact that for two millenia most people will be unable to engage in any of these since most were illiterate. He of course us to interpret the book for ourselves to arrive to the Truth that God loves so much! :rolleyes:
 
And even then, the argument is not de-constructed - for the argument with “until” is not that they definitely had sex after, but that it suggests they did.

This has still not been shown to be false.
Hardly.
Moreso, the reasoning behind ‘hiding’ the other brothers has been shown to be false, and has not been responded to yet. (go back to the first two pages…)
Before I wade into this, may I ask if you have any familiarity whatsoever with the limitations of Aramaic and why the Greek uses the word for “brothers” instead of the word for “cousins”?

If you are, fine. If not, we can begin there.
 
Gandalf-

Can I get you to apply this same rigor to John 6:51-58?

I didn’t think so.

Fortunately, we do know some Greek and some Aramaic and we understand why distant relatives were called “brothers”.

Lot was literally Abraham’s nephew, but scripture calls him “brother”, yada, yada, yada. You know the rest…

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
I’m not disagreeing with you…I’m disagreeing with hvg3akaek. I’m just being a bit sarcastic 😛

But you’re right in the comment! 👍
 
It is only when you look at it through the glasses of Tradition that you start having the problems you need to try to explain away.
Where does your bible come from? Is that not tradition? I mean after all, is there an inspired table of contents that says which books are inspired? What if I were to say that I don’t think the Letter to the Hebrews is inspired? What would your answer be to me, to say that it is? Does it say in the letter that this is inspired?

If you want to abolish tradition then you must abolish the bible.

Read my quote below.
 
She’s not a normal human she’s the Holy Mother of God.
No, she is the mother of the earthly Jesus. God was around a long time before as was Jesus, but not in his human form. God is more than just what Mary gave birth to.
  1. Again, I think you have fixation on sex. :rolleyes:
Do you have a fixation on marriage? On spousal-ship?
  1. I am not an idolator, I worship the One true God: Father , Son, and Holy Spirit (so please do not judge me, lest you be judged :dts: ). But I do Love my Momma…Ave Maria, oh wait is that idolitry, oh but that cant be, remember that the Angle said that in the Bible RIGHT! So it is OK, right? :whistle:
First, I think you have the judging thing incorrect. It is a warning to be careful when we judge, not not to judge.

see a similar version of it:

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

1 Corinthians 5:12
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

1 Corinthians 6:5
I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?

1 Corinthians 10:15
I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.

It is indeed wrong to judge in the way that Jesus is to judge, in the way a judge in a courtroom might - that is, decide right and wrong, and issue sentence. Only Jesus will do that. But we can still judge using what God has given, to see whether it is right or not.

As to the rest - giving God’s unique qualities to others is idolatry.
  1. My friend, all things are possible with God. God has asked many unnatural things of Man throughout history (Abraham to kill Issac, Men to feed thousands with a few fish, etc.), I thought you knew your Bible.
Now how can you say that, and not get a slap-on-the-wrist for insulting me? :confused: That is more than I said…

Anyway, if all things are possible for God, answer me this - why didn’t God just make everyone perfect, like Mary is supposedly, and save Jesus from His suffering?

Why would God will such suffering for His son, if there was another possibility?

Mark 14:36
“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
 
I’m not disagreeing with you…I’m disagreeing with hvg3akaek. I’m just being a bit sarcastic 😛

But you’re right in the comment! 👍
😊

Serves me right for coming into the discussion in mid-stream.

:tiphat:
 
:rolleyes: oh yeah, of course. no enmity at all… Eve was delighted to be thrown out of Eden because Satan tricked her into eating the fruit…
You might want to check into the Hebrew meaning of enmity. It’s much more than just hating or resentment. It involves lifelong warfare. It may include “making war on the rest of her children, those who are children of God” (paraphrasing).
So Jesus saved her before he died? Why did he have to die then? Why not save everyone likewise? Why not save all of his church likewise? That would have been a shining example to the world! Or at least, save the leaders like that - holy leaders would have been much better than the sinful bunch that lead us currently…?
I do notice that she says, “My Sprit rejoices in God my Saviour”. Not, “My Spirit rejoices in God Who will sonn be my Savior after He dies”. Interesting.
Why not save all of His Church likewise? I don’t know. Maybe we can ask Him sometime together in the near future. Just wait for me if you get here first. Deal? 🙂

Regarding “that sinful bunch that lead us currently”? I know the Pope and the Cardinal are sinners. But I certainly wouldn’t quantify them as “that sinful bunch”.
you mean you seriously read those passages without any RCT bias, and still come to the conclusion that they say that Mary was always a virgin? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Most definately, Bob!
:rolleyes: yeah, no. Oh, wait - maybe you have been spoon-fed on what you think i have been spoon-fed on what Roman Catholics have been spoon-fed on?
Who’s on First? What’s on Second?
hence why i am here. unfortunately, what Roman Catholics here claim they are taught and what they can give me seem to differ somewhat…
This thread is complicated enough. Let’s save it for another.
 
Anyway, if all things are possible for God, answer me this - why didn’t God just make everyone perfect, like Mary is supposedly, and save Jesus from His suffering?

Why would God will such suffering for His son, if there was another possibility?
In order to demonstrate his love so that he might be glorified.
 
and this is a quoted again from david currie. " did other people of that time make vows of virginity and celibacy? yes, recent discoveries( such as at Qumran) leave no doubt that it was a known practice, though uncommon. but surely Evangelicals and Catholics would agree that Mary and Joseph were an uncommon couple. what common have been entrusted with the early education of GOD INCARNATE?" But again i imagine that now they are going to said that this is not in the bible either. ST. JUDE PRAYERS
May the Sacred Heart of Jesus be Adored, Glorified, Loved & Preserved throughout the world, now & forever. Sacred Heart of Jesus, please pray for me. Saint Jude, Worker of Miracles, please pray for me. Saint Jude, Helper of the Hopeless, please pray for me. Amen."
🙂
vows of celibacy, outside of marriage is a good thing. vows of celibacy within marriage is bad, and defeats one of the aims of marriage itself:

Ephesians 5:31
“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”

1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
 
You liked it…and yet, for some reason, I received an “Infraction” for apparently I “Insulted Other Member(s)”… :confused:

I have to say…I was talking about a desire. And that a desire to think for one self was better than a desire to be spoon-fed…how is that an insult? :confused:
Your intention didn’t come out in your post. Most adults don’t like to be told they are being “spoon-fed” their Church Doctrines. It implies they are mindless robots. If that was not your intention, then I certainly believe you and accept any apologies.
I hope others who have used the term similarly do not get similar infringement notices. 😦
Please, show me how.
I haven’t. Maybe I need to check my in-box!
 
vows of celibacy, outside of marriage is a good thing. vows of celibacy within marriage is bad, and defeats one of the aims of marriage itself:
Not if both spouses are in agreement.

This really is inconceivable to you, isn’t it?

No pun intended. :tiphat:
 
1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Natural Family Planning:thumbsup: …different topic though.
 
Friends,

You have provided overwhelming evidence on the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin.
“overwhelming evidence” only if you already are a Roman Catholic, unfortunately.
Why should anyone who has been given the gifts of Truth be reduced to puerile views when other views are given charitably and in respect and deference, but then are tossed aside as worthless?
Wow, it is great how Roman Catholics are allowed to insult Protestants, fully and intentionally, but if a Protestant’s words can be taken to be offensive in any way, they are jumped on 😦 This does not make for a loving environment.
We’ve argued the Greek meanings
Actually, people wanted to argue Hebrew and Arimaic meanings, not Greek.

And those that did try to argue Greek meanings claimed (incorrectly) that Greek had no term for “cousin”, in direct disregard for the use of “anepsios” in Colossians 4:10.
the scholarly tradition that dates for millennia
well, the ones that agree with you. And in disregard to the initial question, which asked for biblical evidence only.
and even common sense based on Jewish law
Common sense? Surely you jest? I expect you refer to the ‘giving’ of Mary to John, and how this would be a grave insult lest her other sons be dead?

But each and every time, people fail to see that the Jewish law said that one who is hung on a tree is cursed - there was a much graver offence than what Jesus might have done, and not one Christian seems to mind that.
and yet all are cast aside.
Only because they are found lacking.
I’d argue that you cannot make someone see what is clearly visible when they refuse to look. Or, to be more blunt, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him take a drink.
I would likewise agree. But I would say that quoting a proverb does not mean it applies to me and not you 😉
 
Actually, people wanted to argue Hebrew and Arimaic meanings, not Greek.

And those that did try to argue Greek meanings claimed (incorrectly) that Greek had no term for “cousin”, in direct disregard for the use of “anepsios” in Colossians 4:10.
Of course the Greek has a word for “cousin”, and no Catholic apologist should claim otherwise. That is not the point at all.

Let’s reboot this discussion, shall we?

1. "I’ve never understood why Catholics claim that Mary was a virgin her entire life. The Bible says that Jesus had brothers. Matthew 13:55 settles the matter for me: ‘Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brethren James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us?’"

In the case of Mary’s perpetual virginity, the key to explaining Matthew 13:55 is understanding the Greek word for “brethren” (adelphoi) and its feminine counterpart (adelphe). If the Greek words used in this passage connote only siblings, then the Catholic dogma of Mary’s perpetual virginity is false.

However, the word adelphoi has a much broader meaning. It may refer to male relatives that one is not a descendant of and that are not descendant from one (such as a blood brother, step-brother, nephew, uncle, cousin, etc.) or non-relatives such as neighbors, fellow workers, co-religionists, and friends.

Because of this broad usage, we can be sure that the 120 “brothers” in Acts 1:15 did not have the same mother. Neither did Lot and his uncle Abraham, who were called “brothers” (Gen. 11:26-28, 29:15).

The reason relatives were called brothers or sisters was because in Hebrew, there was no word for cousin, nephew, or uncle. So the person was referred to as simply a “brother.” Linguistically, this was far easier than calling the person the son of a mother’s sister. Since the New Testament was written in a dialect of Greek that was heavily influenced by the Semitic culture, many of the Hebrew idioms (like “brother” having multiple meanings) intrude into the Greek text. So, the fact that Jesus had adelphoi does not mean that Mary had other children.
2**.****“But there was a Greek word for cousin, anepsios. If the brothers of the Lord were really his cousins, why wasn’t that word used?”**

Here is a common misconception to be on the lookout for: “Catholics teach that the brothers were actually cousins.” That’s not the Catholic position. In fact, we can’t tell if any of the “brothers” were cousins. All the Church affirms is that they were not children of Mary. They could have been children of Joseph from a prior marriage. But the specific word for cousin (anepsios) probably would not have been used in Matthew 13:55 unless all the “brothers” were cousins. If even one of them was not a cousin, the more general term " adelphoi" covers the situation. Even if all of them were cousins, the term “brother” could still be used by Matthew to appropriately describe them.

These things were taken for granted by the early Christians, who were familiar with the biblical languages and who knew that Mary was a lifelong virgin. In A.D. 380, Helvidius proposed that Mary had other children because of the “brothers” in Matthew 13:55. He was rebutted by Jerome, who was arguably the greatest biblical scholar of the day. The Protestant reformer John Calvin seconded Jerome: “Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages to the brothers of Christ” [quoted by Bernard Leeming, *Protestants and Our Lady, 9]
. Martin Luther agreed with Calvin that Mary was always a virgin, as did Ulrich Zwingli: “I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary” [E. Stakemeier, *De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., 456].
3. "Why is she betrothed to Joseph if she made a vow of virginity?"

Consecrated virginity was not common among first century Jews, but it did exist. According to some early Christian documents, such as the *Protoevangelium of James *(written around A.D. 120), Mary was a consecrated virgin. As such, when she reached puberty, her monthly cycle would render her ceremonially unclean and thus unable to dwell in the temple without defiling it under the Mosaic Law. At this time, she would be entrusted to a male guardian. However, since it was forbidden for a man to live with a woman he was not married or related to, the virgin would be wed to the guardian, and they would have no marital relations.

From an article by Jason Evert.
 
No, she is the mother of the earthly Jesus. God was around a long time before as was Jesus, but not in his human form. God is more than just what Mary gave birth to.
There is no ‘earthly Jesus’ and human form. Jesus if FULLY man and fully God.

THEREFORE

A = B
C = D(A)
…C = D(B)

Jesus = God
Mary = Mother of Jesus
Therefore Mary = Mother of God

The title Mother of God is true. Doesn’t mean that Mary is the mother of Father or Holy Spirit. Mary is the Mother of the Son (Jesus and God), the second person of the Most Holy Trinity.
 
James 2:24 " You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. " Why (if you dont believe a man is justified by works) did God say such a thing if he didnt mean it? Why was he ambiguous in such a critical, salvation-related statement?
And yet, Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast

So, one must ask - is this a contradiction or are we missing something?

What does Jesus say? In response to someone doing something (ie works), we sees:

Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Clearly, if it were by works, Jesus would have said “Your work has saved you”, but He did not.

Hebrews 11 is all about faith, not the works. The works show the faith, but they do not save. Faith alone saves.

James is stressing this point - that faith without an outward action, without a response, is no faith at all. Just as faith without love is not faith, neither is faith without acting.

But it is not the faith, nor the love that saves.

more here.
John 6:54-55 " he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. " Do you believe what is actually said, or do you change it to a “saying” which ISNT “hard to understand”?
Do you believe them literally? :confused: Do you believe that they had to become cannibals to live? And that now Jesus’ body is no longer here, no one can be raised up?

Or have you missed the rest of the situation:

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life.
Matt 6:14 “If you do not forgive the trespasses of others, neither will your father in heaven forgive your trespasses” Do you believe that the forgiveness of your sins is contingent upon forgiving others? Why not? Is Jesus not being explicit enough?
Yes, I do. For how could I love others and not forgive them? How could I have God’s love, but not love others? Once again - forgiveness of others will not get me into heaven. But lack of forgiveness is a clear sign that I am not heading there!
There are plenty more places where the bible is indeed ambiguous on important matters of faith. You know, simple stuff like, Is Jesus God?
That, too, is very clear. Jesus said “I AM”, and the Jews understood Him to be calling himself God, so they went to stone Him.

I am sorry, but you have not shown what you initially claimed:
You dont actually believe what you’ve written here. For even when the bible is explicit in what it says, you still believe otherwise. Want a few examples?
So, will you admit that it was incorrect, or will you continue on trying to show me wrong?
 
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