Mary and her children

[Philthy]

"philthy:

James 2:24 " You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. " Why (if you dont believe a man is justified by works) did God say such a thing if he didnt mean it? Why was he ambiguous in such a critical, salvation-related statement?

And yet, Ephesians 2:8-9 says:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast
So, one must ask - is this a contradiction or are we missing something?
What does Jesus say? In response to someone doing something (ie works), we sees:
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Clearly, if it were by works, Jesus would have said “Your work has saved you”, but He did not.

Unless, of course, faith and works are actually united. The only thing that has become clear is that your original implication - that God would never introduce ambiguous Scripture to convey a clear truth - is flatly false. You immediately run from James to Luke to prove your interpretation of James. Why?
hvg3:

Hebrews 11 is all about faith, not the works. The works show the faith, but they do not save. Faith alone saves.

“Faith of itself (ie, faith alone), if it is not accompanied by works, is dead.” That’s what Scripture says. Notice how I dont need to run off to another book of the bible to continue my point? Notice how Scripture is speaking for itself in my argument and I dont need to interpret it in order to convey the clear message? You cant do that and prove your point because Scripture, unlike your claim to the contrary, contains ambiguous language. Get over it. It never says “faith alone saves” not even once - you would think that would be important. The only time the term “faith alone” is EVER USED it is to point out that it is A USELESS, DEAD FAITH THAT DOES NOT JUSTIFY and WONT SAVE.
You will not make the slightest bit of progress in arguing that God would never inspire ambiguous language in Scripture - but you will try because you need it to be true to “prove” your theology.
hgv3:

James is stressing this point - that faith without an outward action, without a response, is no faith at all. Just as faith without love is not faith, neither is faith without acting. But it is not the faith, nor the love that saves.

No kidding? Gosh, I wonder where anyone ever got the idea that faith alone, without an outward response (ie a WORK), saved you. Oh wait - it was you at the beginning of the post! Here it is…
hvg3:
Hebrews 11 is all about faith, not the works. The works show the faith, but they do not save. Faith alone saves.

So, to sum up what you have presented:
hvg3:

It is not the faith, nor the love that saves…faith alone saves.

Maybe you wanna try again to explain the clear meaning of Scripture to us?
hvg3:

Do you believe them literally? Do you believe that they had to become cannibals to live? And that now Jesus’ body is no longer here, no one can be raised up?

Weak, weak and weaker. If you have something to say, say it.
hvg3:

Or have you missed the rest of the situation:

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life.

No doubt you meant to make a point here, but you havent. If you have something to say, say it and dont assume I twist verses to mean what you twist them to mean.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Literally the scriptures are unclear as to whom the blood parents are concerning any reference to brothers or sisters of Jesus.

1. Not one verse declares them to be sons and daughters of Mary
2. Not one verse declares them to be sons or daughters of Joseph.
3. Those two alone could make it stalemate. All they do is declare them to be some type of Brother or sister. An understanding of Ancient Judaic Culture and History will provide the proper context and intent of scripture.
4. We know that some people made the comment that Jesus was the Carpenters son. We know this to be false, since Jesus father is God. The writer was just reporting what the people had said instead of stating fact. Context and intent gets lost on most Protestants.
5. My dad had 3 children with his first wife. My dad and mom divorced. Dad remarried and had one son with his second wife. Now you can call me James and you can call the son that my dad had with his second wife Jesus. I am a brother of Jesus but I don’t have the same mother as Jesus. My other brother and sister are also a brother and sister of Jesus, but they don’t share the same mother.

6 Protestants read scripture with a modern understanding and mentality. I suggest you take a few courses in “Ancient Judaic Culture” and “Ancient Judaic History” You will discover a wealth of knowledge and understanding.

 

[JoeyWarren]

**

**John 6:63
**

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life.
Again context and intent. Here Jesus is chastising them for limited ability to understand because of the limitations of the flesh. Jesus is speaking with the spirit but the disciples cannot comprehend because they are thinking with carnal minds and not with the holy spirit.**

 

[ccfbob]

According to Mosaic law, the penalty for a woman to have sex with a man who was not the father of her legitimate child is death by stoning.

To argue that Mary had other biological children outside of the sacred covenant God himself established with Mary demands that

1. Mary be in violation of the law, or
2. that her relationship with God is the same as with any human ‘husband’, making her a polygamist.

Both options are unbiblical, and incomprehensible. People who believe such man-made nonsense are in anti-church cults who are in rebellion even with the reformers. They are incapable of identifying their love for their own mothers as a parallel to the love Christ had for his mother. Their faith is dead, or dying.

Jesus said, For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.’ Matthew 15:4

Rev 12:15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth.
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war ON THE REST OF HER OFFSPRING, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea…

Who could these OFFSPRING be? Ever commentator worth his salt will tell you that these offspring are the Church. How did Our Blessed Mom become the Mother of the Church?

John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

God said “woman” in Genesis 3:15, and He said “woman” in Rev. 12: >> The only two places in scripture where you have a woman and a serpent. Genesis and Revelation, the beginning and the end of the Bible.

God said “woman” at the Wedding of Cana, and He said “woman” while dying on the cross. The beginning and the end of his of His earthly ministry.

The experiences of the “Beloved Disciple” (BD) were the focus of John’s Gospel. He is an ‘everyman’ character. St. John’s Gospel is told in such a way that the reader can identify himself with the BD and is meant to see the story of Jesus from the BD’s perspective. Whatever is addressed to the BD is addressed to the reader. It makes John’s gospel unique to the other gospels.

So we have established that:

1. Mary is the Mother of Jesus
2. Whose children are the Church that keeps the commandments AND honors her Son
3. Who himself explicitly designated her as the Mother of his disciples.

Mary having other biological children speaks evil of Our Blessed Mom, will eventually kill your faith, and is a doctrine of demons.

:dancing: :tiphat: :bowdown2: :knight2:

epostle, may I use some or all of this for an apologetics paper I am writing?

Thanks,
Bob

 

[Randy_Carson]

Does the scripture ever call any of these alleged brothers and sisters “sons and daughters of Mary”?

“Brothers and sisters”…sure. No word for “cousins”, etc., etc.

But never sons and daughters of Mary…why is this?

 

[larryhc]

If Jesus have brothers and sisters, and is not the only child of God ( born of the Blessed Virgin Mary), then how can you believe in the Holy Trinity…God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ? There is no place in His family for His brothers and sisters?

 

[epostle]

There is no vacancies in the Trinity, but Jesus uses His mother as an example when He says “he who does the will of my Father is my mother and brothers…” That means Mary is a model of faith, because if she didn’t do the will of the Father, He would not have been born.

Jesus is making a unity, where cultists make a distinction.

Yes, Bob. Help yourself.

 

[epostle]

It appears the trolls are overstuffed!!!

IF Jesus put down His mother in any way by saying "“he who does the will of my Father is my mother and brothers…”, Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21, or anykind of so-called rebuke, then Jesus would be violating the Fourth Commandment by dishonoring His mother. To interpret scripture in this manner diminishes the divinity of Christ and therefore is related to the Arian heresy. (IMHO)

“Your mother and your brothers want to speak with you.”
They thought the same way we do. Importance was measured by who you knew.

Why would a non-relative, with no clout whatsoever, speak directly to Jesus on behalf of His mother and brothers?? The verse doesn’t say, “We are your mother and brothers, we want to speak with you.” SOMEBODY had to tell Jesus directly, and that somebody must have been obedient. I wonder to whom.

What reasons might there be for them (the original mother and brothers) to want to speak with Him in the first place???

 

[ccfbob]

Great Show on C/A today re: Mary in the OT. It was interesting and informative. Check out the archives and listen if you missed it. It was right spot on for this discussion/forum.

hvg3akaek, my Brother, please check this out. It may not be posted for a day or 2, so I will paste a link for you if it would be easire.

God’s Love to All

 

[JoeyWarren]

Please post a link!

 

[Angela_Tate]

Click on the link within the Calendar for May 21: Mary in the Old Testament with Jim Burnham

catholic.com/radio/calendar.php

 

[ccfbob]

Thank you Angela Tate, you beat me to it, that was great.

I wasn’t thinking of posting it in that fashon, duh…

This computer stuff is starting to make me feel real old, and I am only 45, ah 6! Think I’ll just go back to driving my Studebakers and live the simpler life again…

 

[onenow1]

Hi, All
An interesting parallel, in Luke and Exodus.

Exodus. 40: 34-36, The cloud covered the tent of the meeting and the glory of Yahew filled the Dwelling. Moses could not enter the tent of the meeting since the cloud stayed over it, and the glory of Yehew filled the Dwelling.

Luke.1: 35, The angel answered, the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and called the Son of God.

Comment: The cloud covered the tent, the glory of God filled the Ark. IN the new Ark of the covenant the Holy Spirit, came upon Mary, and the Most High God covered her with His shadow. You just might suspect a connection here.

Just passing through.
Peace, OneNow1

 

[Ilroy]

But, after all, the gospels were not written in Hebrew or Aramaic, they were written in Greek, as was:
Actually, Matthew was written in Aramaic. His audience were the Jewish Christians so he used their language.

Ah…do you not recall what Jesus’ response was to people telling his mother and (blood) brothers were outside?

Matthew 12:49
Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.

**don’t forget Vs. 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Here he is pointing out that all believers are his mother and brother and sister…your view is based on incomplete context. **

-hvg3

 

[Cardinalsong]

Brothers of Jesus, Not Sons of Mary

Many non-Catholics deny the Perpetual Virginity of Mary by referring to passages of scripture that mention the “brothers” of Jesus. A rigorous analysis of scripture, however, proves their position is false. Consider the following:

1. Jesus had a “brother” named James.

"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?”(Matthew 13:55)

2. James, the Lord’s “brother”, is an apostle.

“Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)

3. There are two apostles named James.

“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”(Luke 6:13-16)

4. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.

“James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)

5**. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.**

“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

6. Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.

7. The man named Joseph (or Joses) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his mother is Mary and his brother is James. Therefore, this Mary is the wife of Alphaeus.

“Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

8. Judas is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is the son of James.

“When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.” (Acts 1:13)

**9. While Matthew 15:35 declares James, Joseph and Judas to be the “brothers” of Jesus, it has been demonstrated from scripture that they are NOT uterine brothers of the Lord. From this, it is apparent that scripture must be using the term “brothers” to mean relatives other than sons of Mary. **

Jesus did not leave us a book that we have to figure out on our own; He left us a Church built upon a group of men commissioned to preach the full Gospel. When the Early Church Fathers—some of whom were disciples of Peter and John—spoke of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, they knew what they were talking about!

Further, by illustrating Protestant misunderstanding on this one issue, we can begin to understand that Protestants have not been told the whole truth and that Protestantism is incomplete, insufficient and incoherent.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Randy, your answers are always helpful. I hope you don’t mind I copied it down for future reference. It isn’t the first time. I should start a “Randy’s answers” file for my own (and others) use:tiphat:

 

[hvg3akaek]

Why is it that people do not wish to read responces?

If someone says “A”, and another tries to refute it with “B”, but the first shows “B” to be incorrect with “C”, why do people keep bringing up “B”?

Does the scripture ever call any of these alleged brothers and sisters “sons and daughters of Mary”?

Why should they? Jesus is the focal point, he is the one who is the subject of the narrative. It is to Him that they are related. His siblings, thus children of His mother. Who is His mother? Mary, so therefore, children of mary.

“Brothers and sisters”…sure. No word for “cousins”, etc., etc.

Again, you fail to read the many many times i have said that Greek DOES have a word for cousins. And yet, you sit in your little quiet sheltered place and continue to make the same false arguments…

But never sons and daughters of Mary…why is this?

Because…and this is a shocking thing for most roman catholics…because:

Mary just isn’t that important.

There is no vacancies in the Trinity, but Jesus uses His mother as an example when He says “he who does the will of my Father is my mother and brothers…” That means Mary is a model of faith, because if she didn’t do the will of the Father, He would not have been born.

Jesus is making a unity, where cultists make a distinction.

Yeah Jesus is using mary as a model of faith. And God the father, he is also a model of faith. And all of mary’s other sons, they are also models of faith.

If you want to stick mary in there, have the decency to stick her other sons in there too…

What reasons might there be for them (the original mother and brothers) to want to speak with Him in the first place???

Good question! What did Jesus’ family want to speak to him about? Well, firstly, they did not believe him:
John 7:5
For even his own brothers did not believe in him

and secondly, they thought he was out of his mind:
Mark 3:21
When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

Put the pieces together

The really sad part is that people like Randy make statements such as:

Further, by illustrating Protestant misunderstanding on this one issue, we can begin to understand that Protestants have not been told the whole truth and that Protestantism is incomplete, insufficient and incoherent.

without backing it up, without addressing the many concerns and problems with it, and thus without showing it to be anything more than an automatic answer that has no real thinking behind it…and yet people still gleefully accept it as wonderful. Despite all evidence to the contrary It is a sad state of affairs that you show yourselves to be in…

I leave you all with this:

Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Think: If Mary really was all that you make her out to be, should not have Jesus said “Yes! Indeed you are right, she is to be blessed above all other humans, for she is sinless and the mother of God and the ark of the new covenant!”. Funny, how Jesus instead shows that she is no more special than anyone else

 

[onenow1]

Hi, hvg3

Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

hvg3: Jesus response to this verse is exactly what Jesus said about Mary! She obeyed the word of God,which makes her most blessed. In scripture I don’t think there is anyone who obeyed God’s word more exactly. Doncha get it ?

Peace, OneNow1

 

[NotWorthy]

Hvg3, Randy is merely inserting this argument (Mary, mother of Jesus), not to focus on Mary. What gave you that idea?

He’s inserting the argument simply because when they state other women, they state who all they are the mother of. Nowhere does Scripture do this for Mary, mother of Jesus.

 

[Axion]

Again, you fail to read the many many times i have said that Greek DOES have a word for cousins. And yet, you sit in your little quiet sheltered place and continue to make the same false arguments…

I’m afraid you’re the one who isn’t reading responses.

The jewish people of Palestine in the 1st century DID NOT speak to one another in Greek.

The words spoken by the people quoted in scripture were in ARAMAIC. A language which does not have a separate word for cousin. The New Testament writers were not writing fiction. They were not picking out words that suited themselves. What they were doing was transcribing oral accounts of real events. These oral accounts will have originated in Aramaic, not Greek. There is early tradition that the Gospel of Matthew itself was originally written in Aramaic, then translated into Greek.

Either way, the original oral accounts were in Aramaic. Those who wrote down the Gospels translated the original accounts into Greek. As they translated, they would take the Aramaic word for “brother” <ach> and simply translate it into the usual equivalent, namely the Greek word for “Brother”, <adelphos>, which has a narrower meaning. Unless someone intervened at that point with a very good reason to use another word, the translator would naturally use the word “Brother”

This also happened in the Old Testament where we can find many people referred to as “brothers” who were other relatives. Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s “brother” (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Aran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26-28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew.

 

[Tom]

Jesus is the focal point, he is the one who is the subject of the narrative. It is to Him that they are related. His siblings, thus children of His mother. Who is His mother? Mary, so therefore, children of mary.

I agree with the first point, Jesus is the focal point. Your logic on the second is incorrect. “His siblings, thus children of His mother”, might I ask, “if” Joseph had children prior to his marriage to Mary, what would “His siblings”; children of Joseph, but not Mary, been called? The reason I asked “if” was in response to your first point, Scripture would not have recorded any prior children of Joseph, since these children weren’t the focal point either, so it is entirely possible that Jesus could have had actual “brothers and sisters” without them being children of Mary, but only children of Joseph. Again what would children of Joseph but not Mary have been called if not “brothers and sisters”?