Given that an Ecumenical Council of the Church disagrees, I would exhort you to humble yourself before the Church’s God-given teaching authority and find out first WHY the Church gives her those titles before declaring her Wrong.
- Status
Further, it’s the OP who is wrong because of the claim that she assumes the Advocate role of the Holy Spirit. The Church has clarified that this is NOT the case and her Advocate-ness and Mediatrix-ness are truly distinct from the roles assumed by the Godhead.
Unfortunately, the OP, with his assumptions has not had the humility to understand first what the Church teaches before attacking, and is therefore the one who is Wrong, not the Church.
Unfortunately, the OP, with his assumptions has not had the humility to understand first what the Church teaches before attacking, and is therefore the one who is Wrong, not the Church.
B
brb3
Guest
Then, would that make her a Co-Advocate or Advocatrix…since the HS was first given ADVOCATE TITLE in scripture.
B
brb3
Guest
Glad to hear the Church sees her role as distinct from the Godhead HS …and, is aware that the Titles given / offered for her must be further defined/clarified… to make this distinction from the Godhead self-evident, and to better describe her unique role…as best we can know it.
B
brb3
Guest
And, what was the decision from that 2010 Day of Dialog on Mary ?
J
JM3
Guest
Another book you should consider reading.
amazon.com/Mystery-Mary-Paul-Haffner/dp/1595250085/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358793511&sr=8-3&keywords=mystery+of+mary#_
amazon.com/Mystery-Mary-Paul-Haffner/dp/1595250085/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358793511&sr=8-3&keywords=mystery+of+mary#_
J
JM3
Guest
From the link:
Book Description
“In this book, Rev. Dr. Paul Haffner offers a clear and structured overview of theology and doctrine concerning Mary set in a historical perspective. He outlines the basic scheme of what constitutes Mariology set in the context of other forms of theological enquiry. Working through the contribution of Holy Scripture he proceeds to examine each of the fundamental doctrines that the Church teaches about Our Lady.”
Most Helpful Customer Reviews
5 of 5 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Thorough, clear, and engaging April 25, 2009
By CDS
Format
aperbackThe Blessed Virgin Mary has an important place in the Church, and should have an important place in the life of every Christian. In this book Fr. Haffner, eloquently and thoroughly presents the person and role of Mary in salvation history. Each chapter has a different focus: prefigurements of Mary in the Old Testament, the Marian dogmas, Mary as a model of the Church, etc. In each chapter, Fr. Haffner explains a topic, and then gives a thorough presentation of where the teaching on that topic comes from, in scripture, and in the writings of theologians from the earliest Christian times right to the present. He presents both a solid foundation of teaching on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and gives the reader the necessary resources to continue entering deeper. Among a wide array of books on Mariology, this one stands out as one of the best!
A
AspiringServant
Guest
You are wrong. Mary is spouse of God the Holy Spirit. You cannot find Him apart from her. You cannot find her apart from Him.
Your knowledge is based on the mental speculation of your limited human mind and you cannot understand the transcendental affairs of the Theotokus. Therefore you cannot catch the spiritual flavor and knowledge of true love of God which is only known by Mary.
You may find these comments critical, but it is a fact just as our saints have spoken for centuries.
Unless you enter into the mysteries of Mary’s love of God, you can never see God because you can never love as she loves. Again, this is why only she, and her companions (the other Marys and the little disciple (John) ) were able to be at the foot of the cross. You are not permitted to be at His Sacrifice and witness His eternal compassion without her company.
You cannot receive the Holy Spirit apart from her which is why the disciples gathered with her in the upper room.
Where He goes she goes.
B
brb3
Guest
A lot you claim here for her is speculative. And, to say we cannot receive the HS apart from Mary is hyperbole.
It is Christ who baptizes us, with his HS. Mary is not essential in the Plan of Salvation, but if Christ desires her (or other of the Saints) to assist Him, that is his choice, and no one would reject grace dispensed via Christ, thru a Saint. Christ is Lord & King, and and Mary taught us " we should do whatever he tells us" !!
A
AspiringServant
Guest
You are a heretic.
*All the true children, the chosen ones of heaven,
have God for their Father, and Mary for their mother.
Whoever does not have Mary for his mother does not
have God for his Father.This is why the wicked,and the
heretics and others who hate or despise or are indiffer-
ent toward Our Lady, do not have God for their Father.
If they had Mary for their mother they would love and
honor her, as good and true children naturally love and
honor the mothers who gave them life.
There is a sure way to find out whether a man is a
heretic, the preacher of a false doctrine, an enemy of
God,or a chosen soul.The heretic and the enemy of God
will show his scorn of the Blessed Virgin,or his indiffer-
ence to her; or he will try, by word and deed, openly or
secretly, to belittle devotion to her. Sometimes he will
mask his hatred with arguments that seem very good.
God the Father did not tell Mary to dwell in these,
because,alas!,they are Esaus. * - St. Louis de Monteforte
A
AspiringServant
Guest
Pius VII called her “Dispensatrix of all graces.”[15] Pius IX tells us “God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation.”[16] Does everyone know? Obviously not yet. Leo XIII writes “nothing at all of that great grace which the Lord brought us…is imparted to us except through Mary.” The same pontiff quotes St Bernadine of Siena who teaches “Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.” St. Pius X, in his encyclical Ad Diem Illium which he wrote after study of the writings of St Louis de Montfort taught Mary is the “Dispensatrix of all the gifts which Jesus gained for us by His death. Several years later this Saint Pope called Mary the “treasurer of all graces”[17].
Benedict XV says “together with Christ she has redeemed the human race . . . for this reason every kind of grace that we receive from the treasury of the Redemption is ministered as it were through the hands of the same sorrowful Virgin.”[18] In one of the miracles for St. Joan of Arc’s canonization, objection was that since the miracle took place at Lourdes it was Mary’s intercession and not Joan’s. Benedict XV declared “in every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God’s will, every grace and blessing comes to us . . . Mary must never be excluded.”[19]
Pius XI also called Mary “treasurer of all graces” at least three times in his pontificate[20]. Pius XII taught “nothing is excluded from her dominion”[21] and “it is the will of God that we obtain all favors from Mary.”[22] John XXIII rhetorically asks “Did not the Lord will that we have everything through Mary” and more directly instructs us that “from her hands hope for all graces.”[23] In a letter to the Legion of Mary this pope said that “the Legion of Mary present the true face of the Catholic Church”[24]. The Legion, founded by Frank Duff, takes it entire spirituality from St. Louis de Montfort. So, in effect, Pope John XXIII is telling us that St. Louis de Montfort’s work presents the true face of the Catholic Church. How can anyone who embraces the Catholic Church, upon hearing this, be a critical and/or scrupulous devotee (which will be discussed later)?
Pope Paul VI, regarding the connection between the Rosary and Marian Mediation quotes Lumen Gentium when he writes “Let them value highly the pious practices and exercises directed to the Blessed Virgin and approved over the centuries by the magisterium”[25]. And this pope, who as Cardinal during Vatican II was influential in minimizing the Marian title wording of Lumen Gentium Chapter 8 for fear of hurting ecumenism, as pope is unable to continue the same minimizing. He references Mary as Dispenser of Grace and cites St Bernard who all know champions Mediatrix of All Graces and tells us to “take refuge” in Mary in “all our affairs” as everything is more pleasing to God when it goes through Mary. And he tells us that it is from Mary’s throne that graces flow to us and that “Mary most holy is His appointed steward and the generous bestower of the treasures of His mercy.” He approved the Capuchin Mass which prays the prayer to Jesus which the Legion of Mary prays everyday: “Lord Jesus Christ, our Mediator with the Father, Thou has deigned to constitute the Blessed Virgin, Thy Mother, to be our Mother and Mediatrix with Thee; grant that all who turn to Thee to ask favors may be pleased to have obtained them through Her.” Finally he states that “the Divine Savior left . . . His Mother, with all the treasures of grace and virtues with which he had endowed her, that she may pour them over us.” [26]
Pope John Paul II used the specific term “Mediatrix of All Graces” at least nine times and taught the doctrine indirectly in many other ways[27]. In Redemptoris Mater he teaches us that the teachings of St Louis de Montfort are an excellent example of Marian devotion matching the intentions of Vatican II. St Louis de Montfort’s entire Mariology is based on Mary being Mediatrix of All Graces. Pope Benedict XVI speaks of Pope John Paul II in such high regard that he considers it an important part of his mission to ensure his predecessor’s teachings are assimilated by the Church[28]. He goes on to say that Vatican II in no way revoked any prior teachings[29].
SEE
blog.adorationservants.org/2012/12/03/all-graces-a-study-of-the-title-mary-mediatrix-of-all-graces/
Benedict XV says “together with Christ she has redeemed the human race . . . for this reason every kind of grace that we receive from the treasury of the Redemption is ministered as it were through the hands of the same sorrowful Virgin.”[18] In one of the miracles for St. Joan of Arc’s canonization, objection was that since the miracle took place at Lourdes it was Mary’s intercession and not Joan’s. Benedict XV declared “in every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God’s will, every grace and blessing comes to us . . . Mary must never be excluded.”[19]
Pius XI also called Mary “treasurer of all graces” at least three times in his pontificate[20]. Pius XII taught “nothing is excluded from her dominion”[21] and “it is the will of God that we obtain all favors from Mary.”[22] John XXIII rhetorically asks “Did not the Lord will that we have everything through Mary” and more directly instructs us that “from her hands hope for all graces.”[23] In a letter to the Legion of Mary this pope said that “the Legion of Mary present the true face of the Catholic Church”[24]. The Legion, founded by Frank Duff, takes it entire spirituality from St. Louis de Montfort. So, in effect, Pope John XXIII is telling us that St. Louis de Montfort’s work presents the true face of the Catholic Church. How can anyone who embraces the Catholic Church, upon hearing this, be a critical and/or scrupulous devotee (which will be discussed later)?
Pope Paul VI, regarding the connection between the Rosary and Marian Mediation quotes Lumen Gentium when he writes “Let them value highly the pious practices and exercises directed to the Blessed Virgin and approved over the centuries by the magisterium”[25]. And this pope, who as Cardinal during Vatican II was influential in minimizing the Marian title wording of Lumen Gentium Chapter 8 for fear of hurting ecumenism, as pope is unable to continue the same minimizing. He references Mary as Dispenser of Grace and cites St Bernard who all know champions Mediatrix of All Graces and tells us to “take refuge” in Mary in “all our affairs” as everything is more pleasing to God when it goes through Mary. And he tells us that it is from Mary’s throne that graces flow to us and that “Mary most holy is His appointed steward and the generous bestower of the treasures of His mercy.” He approved the Capuchin Mass which prays the prayer to Jesus which the Legion of Mary prays everyday: “Lord Jesus Christ, our Mediator with the Father, Thou has deigned to constitute the Blessed Virgin, Thy Mother, to be our Mother and Mediatrix with Thee; grant that all who turn to Thee to ask favors may be pleased to have obtained them through Her.” Finally he states that “the Divine Savior left . . . His Mother, with all the treasures of grace and virtues with which he had endowed her, that she may pour them over us.” [26]
Pope John Paul II used the specific term “Mediatrix of All Graces” at least nine times and taught the doctrine indirectly in many other ways[27]. In Redemptoris Mater he teaches us that the teachings of St Louis de Montfort are an excellent example of Marian devotion matching the intentions of Vatican II. St Louis de Montfort’s entire Mariology is based on Mary being Mediatrix of All Graces. Pope Benedict XVI speaks of Pope John Paul II in such high regard that he considers it an important part of his mission to ensure his predecessor’s teachings are assimilated by the Church[28]. He goes on to say that Vatican II in no way revoked any prior teachings[29].
SEE
blog.adorationservants.org/2012/12/03/all-graces-a-study-of-the-title-mary-mediatrix-of-all-graces/
J
JM3
Guest
The Blessed Virgin is key to God’s redemptive plan. Without her, the Word does not become flesh and you have no salvation. God has placed the Blessed Virgin Mary above all but Himself. This fact, alone, demands your respect.
Your words show that you have an extreme misunderstanding of the Body of Christ and catholic teaching.
V
Vico
Guest
Catholic Encycolpedia:
“…certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent. The relic of the saint is venerated because of the link which unites it with the person who is adored or venerated; while the statue or picture is regarded as having a conventional relation to a person who has a right to our homage — as being a symbol which reminds us of that person …”
Cabrol, Fernand. “Christian Worship.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 15. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1912. 21 Jan. 2013
newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm
“…certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent. The relic of the saint is venerated because of the link which unites it with the person who is adored or venerated; while the statue or picture is regarded as having a conventional relation to a person who has a right to our homage — as being a symbol which reminds us of that person …”
Cabrol, Fernand. “Christian Worship.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 15. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1912. 21 Jan. 2013
newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm
J
jpink1019
Guest
Well as ONE of the OP’s
Allow me to correct that.
Mary’s role is to be viewed from 3 perspectives"
Mother of our God [one of many BILLIONS chosen to be Lk. 1:26-35
Our Mother Given to us by Jesus Jn.19: 26-30
And Mary’s Role in salvation Rom. 5:12 “Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.”
Jesus is the “New Adam” Rom. 5:19
For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just
Mary is the “New Eve” Gen. 3:15 “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel” DR bible”
Note: Catholics Worship God Alone. Mary we reverence, adore* respect and employ as our Intercessor. *a·dore MW dict 1. “to regard with the utmost esteem, love, and respect; honor.”
Mary’s Role as Intercessor is not mandated for ones salvation, although of GREAT benefit Catholics can choose to go directly to God.
We pray through Mary and the Saints because for two reasons.
They are in the actual Presence of God in Person. There is no better; no more effective Intercessor that we can invoke than Mary.
They [Mary and the Saints] ADD there own petitions on-top of our and them personally present them to Christ on our behalf. Thus increasing there value, merit and urgency.
Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” *
From the CCC
505 By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Holy Spirit through faith. “How can this be?” Participation in the divine life arises “not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God”. The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit’s gift to man. The spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God is fulfilled perfectly in Mary’s virginal motherhood.
975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ” (Paul VI, CPG § 15).
Mary’s role in mans possible salvation is not absolutely necessary; EXCEPT by God’s Divine and Perfect Will. Salvation could take place w/o Mary were it God’s Will.
Because of the Singular honors and perfection [both imposed by God before Her Conception; and self imposed after Her Birth] Mary; the one chosen from BILLIONS of options is the most and only perfect human being in the history of Creation except for Adam and Eve. Like Adam and Eve She too could have chosen to sin; but never did.
Because of Who She is and What she is God has granted Mary 2 “KEY” roles in mans path to salvation.
Intercessor “par excellence” And Mediarix of all Grace.
NOT the source of; but the dispenser of:thumbsup:
From Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary*
MEDIATRIX. A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind. But it is only probable, as a legitimate opinion, that since Mary’s Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.
On the first level of mediation, Mary freely co-operated with God in consenting to the Incarnation, giving birth to her Son and thus sharing with him in spirit the labors of his passion and death. **Yet Christ alone truly offered the sacrifice of atonement on the Cross. Mary gave him moral support in this action. **She is therefore not entitled to the name “priest,” as several Roman documents legislate. As explained by the Council of Florence in 1441, Christ “conquered the enemy of the human race alone” (Denzinger, 1347). In the same way he alone acquired the grace of redemption for the whole human race, including Mary. Her part in the objective redemption, therefore, was indirect and remote, and derived from her voluntary devotion to the service of Christ. Under the Cross she suffered and sacrificed with him, but subordinate to him in such a way that all the efficacy of her oblation depended on that of her Son.
On the second stage of mediation, Mary co-operates by her maternal intercession in applying Christ’s redemptive grace to human beings, called the subjective redemption. This does not imply that the faithful must pray for all graces through Mary, nor that her intercession is inherently necessary for the distribution of divine blessing, but that, according to God’s special ordinance, the graces merited by Christ are conferred through the actual intercessory mediation of his mother. Recent popes and the Second Vatican Council have spoken in favor of this type of mediation, which finds support in patristic tradition.
ok… so it is clear that Mary’s Role in the Catholic Church can be complicated to explain.
Is it possible to simplify?
After reading this response… Do we Need Mary’s intercession for our Salvation, or not?
Suppose I decide to join the Catholic Church, the one True Church.
Will I require to bring Mary into my faith walk, or not?
A
ahs
Guest
I am not suggesting that she claims a role of the HS. I am saying that she does indeed advocate for us…just as I can advocate for you, or you for me. When we pray for one another, interceded for one another, advocate for one another, we don’t somehow diminish the role of God…we simply do what is expected of us as Christians. Mary is an advocate for us just the same as you are for me, or I for you, or the Saints in Heaven are for us, or we are for the souls in Purgatory.
po18guy
Well-known member
She will always be a part of our walk, even though we may remain unaware. We need not have a single devotion to her - ever - to be a Catholic in good standing. It is best not to allow thinking about her to keep us away from the Church, as she desires above all else that we come to her Son through the Church He founded. That is her purpose.
A
AmosTown
Guest
I was following a thread that said that devotion to Mary is not a requirement to be Catholic.
I was born a Catholic and was thinking of returning to the church but have reservations.
Is it a requirement for Catholics to have devotion to Mary?
Is it a requirement for Catholics to have devotion to the Saints?
I was born a Catholic and was thinking of returning to the church but have reservations.
Is it a requirement for Catholics to have devotion to Mary?
Is it a requirement for Catholics to have devotion to the Saints?
A
AmosTown
Guest
Is this true? I just posted another topic asking this quiestion.
Then is it also true that CAtholics don’t need to have devotion to any saints?
- Status