Mary and her role? (Multi-Merged)

[EricFilmer]

Why do Catholics pray to Mary? This sounds like it is totally unnecessary. I can pray to God without praying to Mary because I know He’ll hear me.

It’s really not a question as to what is and is not necessary. After all, we were created to love God and neighbor (the greatest of the commandments) and therefore the Christian Faith is about loving relationships. Naturally, love is not concerned with what is and is not “necessary”, but rather what is beautiful, fitting and proper for the sake of love.

For example, how many times is it necessary for a married couple to say “I love you” to one another? How many hours a year is it necessary for parents to spend quality time with their children? I’m sure you’ll agree that such questions sound odd and not in keeping with what love is supposed to be about.

The directive to love our neighbor includes loving Mary and the saints in heaven. After all, they are part of the body of the Church just as we are. All Christians believe in the importance of fellowship, and we readily ask fellow Christians on earth to pray for us. Catholics are simply including Mary and the saints in this aspect of fellowship. If the Church includes Christians on earth as well as Christians in heaven, then there is no reason to only have fellowship with Christians on earth.

As a related side note, Catholics do not believe that God won’t hear us unless we ask Mary to pray for us. God is omniscient. Catholics often pray directly to God (for example, the “Our Father”) and we also ask Mary and the saints to pray to God for us (once again, as an aspect of Christian fellowship).

 

[po18guy]

First, to consider reverting to the Catholic faith, you should be convinced that the faith you practice now is incomplete, or just wrong in certain aspects. Here is a thread that discusses the book by Devin Rose entitled: “If Protestantism is True” It is good to begin questioning any lack of fulfillment you sense in your current faith tradition before looking outside of it.

Get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies. I can recommend it without reservation as a fine introduction to the faith and a refresher on the faith. It will serve you for years to come. I learn from my copy each time I open it.

As to the Saints, they are our brothers and sisters in heaven. They are perfected and look upon the Face of God. To have a Church without Saints is like a Church with only one third the membership. There are three parts to the Catholic Church: the Church Militant (us fighting the good fight), the Church Suffering (in purification on their way to heaven) and the Church Triumphant (those in heaven). Remember that we are all parts of Christ’s Body, according to Paul - whether living on earth, on the way to God, or in God’s Presence. Christ’s Body cannot be torn asunder - neither can part of it be dead.

 

[AmosTown]

I believe that was regarding personal devotions. Every parish is required to celebrate some devotions to Mary, including the feast days of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception and Assumption.

That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a parish somewhere without a statue of Mary but it would be very unusual.

Personal devotions? Isn’t participation in parish mass personal devotion? I read somewhere that that mass is the highest form of personal prayer.

 

[pablope]

Personal devotions? Isn’t participation in parish mass personal devotion? I read somewhere that that mass is the highest form of personal prayer.

I am not sure where you heard about the mass as a personal prayer.

Worship in the CC is as a community…the mass is a re-presentation of the Last Supper…it is a community meal…and we do partake of the Eucharist as a community.

It is indeed the highest form of prayer.

 

[AmosTown]

You are not required to ask for intercessions from the Saints or from Mary…nor are you required to say the Rosary. Keep in mind, however, that Mary is the Mother of God…hand picked by God to be His literal mother…and His Sacred Word (Scriptures) reveal to us that ALL generations shall call her “blessed”. But no, you are not required to have any particular personal devotion to her.

So I can be a Catholic if I blank out all references to prayers to saints and Mary while praying with the mass?

 

[guanophore]

Why do Catholics pray to Mary? This sounds like it is totally unnecessary. I can pray to God without praying to Mary because I know He’ll hear me.

Why did the people in the wedding at Cana complain to Mary that the wine had run out?

 

[brb3]

He was a Cardinal, in days of Reformation, who took on Luther for teaching / preaching that Mary was as ordinary as we. And, he develop the Mediatrix title for Mary…saying Jesus is the HEAD of the Church, Mary is the NECK, and the Apostles & we the BODY. Thus, he claimed we only get to Christ by going thru Mary.

POPE PIUS thought Robert was extraordinary, the Thomas Aquinas of his era, and elevated Bellarmine’s ideas to their preeminent status, establishing Bellarmine as the Godfather of Mariology. …So it would seem.

 

[maltmom]

So I can be a Catholic if I blank out all references to prayers to saints and Mary while praying with the mass?

The Mass is Christ centered. Mary and the Saints are mentioned a couple of times. My church is the only one where we sing a Marion hymn in Latin before the closing hymn.

Have you attended Mass? If you haven’t I’d suggest you do. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised how Christ centered it is.

 

[AmosTown]

I am not sure where you heard about the mass as a personal prayer.

Worship in the CC is as a community…the mass is a re-presentation of the Last Supper…it is a community meal…and we do partake of the Eucharist as a community.

It is indeed the highest form of prayer.

Yes. I’ve been studying up on it and have my grandfathers prayer books. In one of his books I am reading it says:

““The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart and mouth all that happens at the altar. Further, you must pray with the priest the holy words said by him in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens at the altar. When acting in this way, you have prayed Holy Mass.””

It says though that the mass is the same sacrifice as Christ on the Cross.

 

[AmosTown]

The Mass is Christ centered. Mary and the Saints are mentioned a couple of times. My church is the only one where we sing a Marion hymn in Latin before the closing hymn.

Have you attended Mass? If you haven’t I’d suggest you do. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised how Christ centered it is.

Really? Whats the name of that church?

 

[JM3]

Did he make you an offer you couldn’t refuse?

Seriously, though, you should get ahold of Luigi Gambero’s books, Mary and the Fathers of the Church and Mary in the Middle Ages and you will see how Mariology developed.

 

[AmosTown]

Why do Catholics pray to Mary? This sounds like it is totally unnecessary. I can pray to God without praying to Mary because I know He’ll hear me.

I just found out that they don’t have to pray to Mary or the saints to be Catholic

 

[dmar198]

He was a Cardinal, in days of Reformation, who took on Luther for teaching / preaching that Mary was as ordinary as we. And, he develop the Mediatrix title for Mary…saying Jesus is the HEAD of the Church, Mary is the NECK, and the Apostles & we the BODY. Thus, he claimed we only get to Christ by going thru Mary.

POPE PIUS thought Robert was extraordinary, the Thomas Aquinas of his era, and elevated Bellarmine’s ideas to their preeminent status, establishing Bellarmine as the Godfather of Mariology. …So it would seem.

Well, I’m sure he was influential in the development of mariology, and therefore deserves the title, but mariology goes all the way back to the New Testament and appears in Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Ambrose, and especially the Eastern Fathers. The Gospel of Luke contains some unique material in its opening chapters including poetic portions that appear to be hymns, one on St. John the Baptist (Luke 1:67-79), one on Mary (Luke 1:46-55) and one on Jesus and Mary (Luke 2:29-35). Now these hymns did not just pop up just because Luke liked poetry. That style of writing doesn’t appear anywhere else in his gospel, and it appears that he put them in the opening chapters because he thought they were important to keep a record of. Mary and the other early figures in Christianity were apparently the subject of reflection and liturgical hymns in the New Testament Church. So Mariology goes all the way back to the first century A.D.

 

[pablope]

Yes. I’ve been studying up on it and have my grandfathers prayer books. In one of his books I am reading it says:

““The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart and mouth all that happens at the altar. Further, you must pray with the priest the holy words said by him in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens at the altar. When acting in this way, you have prayed Holy Mass.””

It says though that the mass is the same sacrifice as Christ on the Cross.

A short journal is you want to read more…on the Eucharist and the Mass…chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/eucharist.pdf

 

[Corki]

Personal devotions? Isn’t participation in parish mass personal devotion? I read somewhere that that mass is the highest form of personal prayer.

No, Mass is one of the public prayers of the Church and her faithful. The Liturgy of the hours is another public prayer.

Personal devotions are such things as praying the Rosary, reading the Bible, saying novenas, praying to particular saints or to particular aspects of Christ (such as prayers to the infant Jesus or the Sacred Heart of Jesus). There is a wide variety of personal devotions. Some are Marian and some are not. All are optional.

So I can be a Catholic if I blank out all references to prayers to saints and Mary while praying with the mass?

I believe you said elsewhere that you were Baptized Catholic. So, you will be Catholic no matter how you pray at Church.

However, the duty of a Catholic at Mass includes full and concious participation. Purposely blocking out parts of the Eucharistic prayer or refusing to pray the whole Confetior would not seem to meet that obligation.

 

[maltmom]

Really? Whats the name of that church?

Mass at any Catholic church is Christ centered. If you are friends with anyone who is Catholic and attends regularly asked to go with them. The reason I’m not saying where I attend is b/c there are forum rules against asking other members where they live, etc. Because this is an open forum I don’t feel comfortable posting my location. I hope you understand. I know you didn’t mean anything by asking.

Did he make you an offer you couldn’t refuse?

 

[JM3]

therealpresence.org/archives/Mariology/Mariology_041.htm

 

[AmosTown]

No, Mass is one of the public prayers of the Church and her faithful. The Liturgy of the hours is another public prayer.

Personal devotions are such things as praying the Rosary, reading the Bible, saying novenas, praying to particular saints or to particular aspects of Christ (such as prayers to the infant Jesus or the Sacred Heart of Jesus). There is a wide variety of personal devotions. Some are Marian and some are not. All are optional.

I believe you said elsewhere that you were Baptized Catholic. So, you will be Catholic no matter how you pray at Church.

However, the duty of a Catholic at Mass includes full and concious participation. Purposely blocking out parts of the Eucharistic prayer or refusing to pray the whole Confetior would not seem to meet that obligation.

Wait a second. I understand its public prayer, but you pray from your heart correct? That makes it personal prayer from the heart in common with other people praying the same prayer.

But I got confused by your post and others for exampel this one:

We need not have a single devotion to her - ever - to be a Catholic in good standing.

I’m reading my grandpas missal and Mary and the saints are prayed to in the mass all over the place. Your comment and po18guy don’t make sense to me.’’

In fact that comments seems to be against from everything I study and read. I looked in grandpas missal and here is just one example “Accept most Holy Trinity this offering which we are making to Thee in remembrance of the passion resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ Our Lord and in honor of blessed Mary ever virgin blessed John the baptist, the holy apostles Peter and Paul and of these and of all the saints that it may add to their honor and aid our salvation and may they deign to intercede in heaven for us who cherish their memory on earth. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen”

Therefore, I don’t have to cherish their memory because that would be devotion to them. And I don’t have to be believe it will aid our salvation because I don’t have to pray to them for interceding in heaving for us.

That seems to conflict with the saying I don’t have to have devotion or prayers to Mary and the saints. Since these kinds of prayers are said in every mass, which is suppose to be prayed by me in common with the church, is it correct that if I omit participation in parts of mass prayers, I can still be Catholic?

 

[rcwitness]

What is in a name?
Who is our Advocate but the Holy Spirit? To some Mary brings the Spirit, to others St James, and for some Martin Luther King, yet others brb3 brings the Holy Spirit, yet to all the same Spirit!
Mary is like the Moon. She reflects the Sun! She is not the source. She cannot bring life to the earth. The Son does from Himself. She is the beauty of the Son. She is hope in the darkness. Is not the moon a promise the sun is there and coming? She is greater than the moon!

I don’t know learned theology. Too many big words and names. But she is romantic, no?

Sorry, I’m being light hearted now,

Michael

 

[po18guy]

I don’t ever remember seeing the Hail Mary prayer in the bible. Are you saying , I must pray to Mary to be a Catholic since its in the bible.

Read Luke 1:28-38, Luke 1:42-45. It comes directly from scripture. It is basically Gabriel’s words to Mary at the Annunciation, as well as Elizabeth’s words, by the Holy Spirit. The “mother of God” is because Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of His human flesh. Elizabeth also called Mary “the mother of my Lord”