Mary and her role? (Multi-Merged)

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AmosTown said:
In fact that comments seems to be against from everything I study and read. I looked in grandpas missal and here is just one example “Accept most Holy Trinity this offering which we are making to Thee in remembrance of the passion resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ Our Lord and in honor of blessed Mary ever virgin blessed John the baptist, the holy apostles Peter and Paul and of these and of all the saints that it may add to their honor and aid our salvation and may they deign to intercede in heaven for us who cherish their memory on earth. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen”
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Granted I’ve only been Catholic nine months, but I’ve never heard a prayer worded this way during Mass.
 
AmosTown said:
I’m reading my grandpas missal and Mary and the saints are prayed to in the mass all over the place. Your comment and po18guy don’t make sense to me.’’
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In all of these posts, it has probably been lost, but my response pertains to private devotion, and not public prayer. Huge difference.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? It will help you greatly in your inquiry.

Your grandfather’s missal sounds like it is a pre-Vatican II missal. As such, it is generally no longer used. There is a new missal that is used in almost all of the masses, except for the “extraordinary form” of the mass, which uses a missal from 1962 - for the masses in Latin. What occurs at both forms of the mass is exactly the same, but there are two different ways of celebrating it.
 
JM3 said:
Did he make you an offer you couldn’t refuse? 😃

Seriously, though, you should get ahold of Luigi Gambero’s books, Mary and the Fathers of the Church and Mary in the Middle Ages and you will see how Mariology developed.
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Ha !

He referenced SALVE REGINA …which preceded Bellarmine. So I looked it up, very interesting, uses word Advocate for Mary. Listened to the lyrics in Latin on Utube…very nice !! Almost GRACEFUL !
 
po18guy said:
In all of these posts, it has probably been lost, but my response pertains to private devotion, and not public prayer. Huge difference.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? It will help you greatly in your inquiry.
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Isn’t public prayer personal prayer said in common publicly? I found a quote about how to pray the mass and it is suppose to be prayed from your heart which is a personal private prayer that so happens to be also a prayer said in common publicly
 
dmar198 said:
Well, I’m sure he was influential in the development of mariology, and therefore deserves the title, but mariology goes all the way back to the New Testament and appears in Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Ambrose, and especially the Eastern Fathers. The Gospel of Luke contains some unique material in its opening chapters including poetic portions that appear to be hymns, one on St. John the Baptist (Luke 1:67-79), one on Mary (Luke 1:46-55) and one on Jesus and Mary (Luke 2:29-35). Now these hymns did not just pop up just because Luke liked poetry. That style of writing doesn’t appear anywhere else in his gospel, and it appears that he put them in the opening chapters because he thought they were important to keep a record of. Mary and the other early figures in Christianity were apparently the subject of reflection and liturgical hymns in the New Testament Church. So Mariology goes all the way back to the first century A.D.
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So, you are suggesting the early Church was ALREADY singing these Songs in Luke’s Gospel in 1st Century ? If true, that would be almost proof-text support !
 
AmosTown said:
Wait a second.

I’m reading my grandpas missal and Mary and the saints are prayed to in the mass all over the place. Your comment and po18guy don’t make sense to me.’’

In fact that comments seems to be against from everything I study and read.

I looked in grandpas missal and here is just one example

“Accept most Holy Trinity this offering which we are making to Thee in remembrance of the passion resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ Our Lord and in honor of blessed Mary ever virgin blessed John the baptist, the holy apostles Peter and Paul and of these and of all the saints that it may add to their honor and aid our salvation and may they deign to intercede in heaven for us who cherish their memory on earth. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen”

Therefore, I don’t have to cherish their memory because that would be devotion to them. And I don’t have to be believe it will aid our salvation because I don’t have to pray to them for interceding in heaving for us.

That seems to conflict with the saying I don’t have to have devotion or prayers to Mary and the saints. Since these kinds of prayers are said in every mass, which is suppose to be prayed by me in common with the church, is it correct that if I omit participation in parts of mass prayers, I can still be Catholic?
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What year and what is the name of your grandpa’s missal?

And this prayer you quoted…is it part of the mass? Or just an ordinary prayer one said before the mass, or a private prayer one says after communion.

In the prayer, the intercession of saints is invoked…to “aid our salvation”…do you see anything wrong with this…asking them to pray for our salvation?

And also, look at the end of the prayer…“Through the same Christ our Lord”…it is asked through Christ.

Hopefully, read this article to help you grow in your understanding…calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/
 
AmosTown said:
Then is it true that Catholics have to pray to saints and Mary to be a Catholic?
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No…but as our lives grow…many choose to, their heavenly intercession is welcome and valuable…once you get to know and understand it more.

In the mass, after the homily, prior to the offertory…there is this prayers of the faithful part…where prayers, petitions, are read publicly…it is part of every mass…those in the mass are saying these prayers…asking for the granting of these in accordance with God’s will. So, in essence, you yourself are praying intercessory prayers…so what could be wrong with asking those in heaven too?
 
AmosTown said:
Isn’t public prayer personal prayer said in common publicly? I found a quote about how to pray the mass and it is suppose to be prayed from your heart which is a personal private prayer that so happens to be also a prayer said in common publicly
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Please set the missal aside for a moment. Let us focus on the Apostle’s creed:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
Amen.

Can you agree with the ancient Apostle’s creed?
 
pablope said:
What year and what is the name of your grandpa’s missal?

And this prayer you quoted…is it part of the mass? Or just an ordinary prayer one said before the mass, or a private prayer one says after communion.
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The Catholic Missal by Catholic Press. I don’t see a date, but that wouldn’t matter since its the Catholic religion can’t change as I understand. What’s that saying? Same today as yesterday or something my grandparents say.
pablope said:
In the prayer, the intercession of saints is invoked…to “aid our salvation”…do you see anything wrong with this…asking them to pray for our salvation?
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Its praying to the saints and someone said you don’t have to pray to Mary or the saints. Someone speak with forked tongue?
pablope said:
And also, look at the end of the prayer…“Through the same Christ our Lord”…it is asked through Christ.
Hopefully, read this article to help you grow in your understanding…
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The prayer below is said in masses of the Blessed Virgin.
*
Rejoice O Virgin Mary thou alone hast destroyed all heresies. Who didst believe the words of the Archangel Gabriel. Whilst a Virgin thou didst bring forth God and man and after His birth a Virgin entire thou didst remain. O Mother of God intercede for us.*
 
po18guy said:
Please set the missal aside for a moment. Let us focus on the Apostle’s creed:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
Amen.

Can you agree with the ancient Apostle’s creed?
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Yes if Catholic is to mean universal. But I just want a simple answer to my question. Do I or do I not have to pray to Mary and the saints. You have said I do not and I say that that goes against what the mass prays. Here’s another prayer from the mass:

"*
Rejoice O Virgin Mary thou alone hast destroyed all heresies. Who didst believe the words of the Archangel Gabriel. Whilst a Virgin thou didst bring forth God and man and after His birth a Virgin entire thou didst remain. O Mother of God intercede for us.*

You have said you can be Catholic and not have to say this prayer or other prayers like it, yet it is said in the masses.

Please answer the question then do Catholics have to pray all prayers said in the masses or can they reject these kinds of prayers from the mass and still be a Catholic
 
brb3 said:
Very nice !

Google …MEDIEVAL CHANT (Gregorian) OF THE TEMPLARS, SALVE REGINA … a 10 minute YouTube audio-visual treat !!
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Thank you. I found it very visually appealing. For some reason I found the audio unnerving. I guess I’m so used to the version of Salve Regina that I had to turn off the audio. It was too deep and “dark.”
 
AmosTown said:
The Catholic Missal by Catholic Press. I don’t see a date, but that wouldn’t matter since its the Catholic religion can’t change as I understand. What’s that saying? Same today as yesterday or something my grandparents say.
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Here, you must separate the what from the how. What the Church celebrates is the timeless sacrifice of Christ. How she celebrates it has changed through the millennia. It is one type of birthday party versus another, but the birthday remains the same.
 
pablope said:
No…but as our lives grow…many choose to, their heavenly intercession is welcome and valuable…once you get to know and understand it more.
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Yes you do:

**
Rejoice O Virgin Mary thou alone hast destroyed all heresies. Who didst believe the words of the Archangel Gabriel. Whilst a Virgin thou didst bring forth God and man and after His birth a Virgin entire thou didst remain. O Mother of God intercede for us.* *

*“By Thy gracious mercy O Lord and the intercession of the blessed Mary ever Virgin may this offering be of avail to us for welfare and peace now and evermore. Through Our Lord” *

May this communion O Lord cleanse us from guilt and through the intercession of blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God make us sharers of the heavenly remedy"

The above quote is from one of the mass. Don’t Catholics have to pray the mass prayers to be Catholic.
 
po18guy said:
Here, you must separate the what from the how. What the Church celebrates is the timeless sacrifice of Christ. How she celebrates it has changed through the millennia. It is one type of birthday party versus another, but the birthday remains the same.
Click to expand...
Rejoice O Virgin Mary thou alone hast destroyed all heresies. Who didst believe the words of the Archangel Gabriel. Whilst a Virgin thou didst bring forth God and man and after His birth a Virgin entire thou didst remain. O Mother of God intercede for us.

“By Thy gracious mercy O Lord and the intercession of the blessed Mary ever Virgin may this offering be of avail to us for welfare and peace now and evermore. Through Our Lord”

May this communion O Lord cleanse us from guilt and through the intercession of blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God make us sharers of the heavenly remedy"

The above quote is from one of the mass. Don’t Catholics have to pray the mass prayers to be Catholic.
 
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