Mary and her role? (Multi-Merged)

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AmosTown said:
Rejoice O Virgin Mary thou alone hast destroyed all heresies. Who didst believe the words of the Archangel Gabriel. Whilst a Virgin thou didst bring forth God and man and after His birth a Virgin entire thou didst remain. O Mother of God intercede for us.

“By Thy gracious mercy O Lord and the intercession of the blessed Mary ever Virgin may this offering be of avail to us for welfare and peace now and evermore. Through Our Lord”

May this communion O Lord cleanse us from guilt and through the intercession of blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God make us sharers of the heavenly remedy"

The above quote is from one of the mass. Don’t Catholics have to pray the mass prayers to be Catholic.
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I haven’t heard this one either.
 
AmosTown said:
Rejoice O Virgin Mary thou alone hast destroyed all heresies. Who didst believe the words of the Archangel Gabriel. Whilst a Virgin thou didst bring forth God and man and after His birth a Virgin entire thou didst remain. O Mother of God intercede for us.

“By Thy gracious mercy O Lord and the intercession of the blessed Mary ever Virgin may this offering be of avail to us for welfare and peace now and evermore. Through Our Lord”

May this communion O Lord cleanse us from guilt and through the intercession of blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God make us sharers of the heavenly remedy"

The above quote is from one of the mass. Don’t Catholics have to pray the mass prayers to be Catholic.
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Note above: Intercession, the same as you or I do for our brothers and sisters. What is your point? You seem (may not be the case) confounded by the concept that some souls are in heaven and might be able to either hear our prayers or carry our prayers to the Father.

Are you willing to divulge your faith tradition, so that we may know your point of view?
 
AmosTown said:
Yes you do:

**
Rejoice O Virgin Mary thou alone hast destroyed all heresies. Who didst believe the words of the Archangel Gabriel. Whilst a Virgin thou didst bring forth God and man and after His birth a Virgin entire thou didst remain. O Mother of God intercede for us.**

*“By Thy gracious mercy O Lord and the intercession of the blessed Mary ever Virgin may this offering be of avail to us for welfare and peace now and evermore. Through Our Lord” *

May this communion O Lord cleanse us from guilt and through the intercession of blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God make us sharers of the heavenly remedy"

The above quote is from one of the mass. Don’t Catholics have to pray the mass prayers to be Catholic.
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I think what you are quoting is from the old Eucharistic prayers after the consecration. These seem like old prayers from the Missal.

There are also different Eucharistic prayers for different occasions. As you posted, this could be one offered to the Virgin Mary, there are also prayers for funerals, and the like.

Beside, the question I asked is…do you see anything wrong with praying the prayers of intercession during the Mass?

As a Christian, if someone asked for your prayers to help in someway…would you refuse someone’s request to pray for them?

There
 
maltmom said:
That’s what I thought. I’d like to know what year it’s from.
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The prayers in it are still correct, although it seems like his trigger point is the “praying to Saints”

:confused: It says “Catholic”, but if all he has is a 1962 missal, how can that be? :confused:
 
maria83 said:
Why do Catholics pray to Mary? This sounds like it is totally unnecessary. I can pray to God without praying to Mary because I know He’ll hear me.
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You take it on faith that God hears you, since He is invisible and you cannot hear Him. Catholics and all Orthodox Christians (and some protestants) take it on faith that the Saints intercede for us, just like asking a brother or sister on earth to pray for us. However (and this is a huge however, in light of James 5:16), the Saints are in heaven and are now perfect. How much more efficacious is their prayer than that of even the most saintly person on earth? Since we on earth are parts of the Body of Christ, and since those in heaven are also parts - but perfected parts - how can there be no communication between them and us? It does not matter if we understand how that communication occurs, only that it does occur. We have plenty of evidence of that.
 
I had another thread regarding excess devotion to Mary. In the end, I learned something about the term “worship”. It is a larger term than just adoration and specific worship to God alone.
But still , worship regarding Mary is not centered on her.In our “sphere of worship” we extend our reverence, honor, thanks, requests, admiration to Mary and then all those involved with the Lord becoming real in our life. The first commandment is we must worship the Lord our God and Him alone we must serve.
When, in our worship of the Lord, we contemplate His works, Mary exists in connection with many points of His life. Catholics aknowledge her connection is not just in proximity of body, like even Judas of Pilate for example, but in her heart she was great in faith and her will cooperated with Him to a highest degree. But it is still His will. He in Himself is the source of His will. Mary worships Him! And we are led by the same Spirit to worship with her our Lord. It becomes difficult for some because her part in the mystical body is motherhood. So I try to understand what her motherhood is. But the Point is she is only a mother to those who keep her son’s commandments!
I know many Catholics who don’t know how to pray from the heart. Just a prayer in their own words. Its ok, and good, to know written prayers. They help us in our anxiety at times to focus on Him. And when we are in groups to pray together too. I think those prayers can be from our heart too. But Prayer, as in conversation needs to exist and with God alone more than our requests of others. To overwhelmingly pray to her for intercession, without having the result of a relationship prayer life with Him directly is not “getting” it.
The Who, rock band, has a song " The Quiet One" with a line, “Still waters run deep, so be carefull, I don’t drown you.” This is like a relationship with Mary. Not that her desire is to drown us, but ours. She is still, and many think they can leap into her without discression. Her voice is quiet, Her doctrines are deep. They are for the strong in faith. She is humble and serves the Lord. She is the creation that reflects the creator. Let us be as well.
Some Protestants don’t see her motherhood to them. That is from disfunctional views of Church brotherhood. Their is pride keeping them from her hidden wisdom. Some Catholics don’t receive her motherhood because they are looking to her but don’t follow the Lord.
I don’t ever judge personal devotion and peoples hearts. But we are commanded to test the spirit in others and I see this. I use good judgement in order to obey Him and receive Mary as my mother. (Nossa Senora) 😉

Michael
 
By talking to you, I am extending you acknowledgement of your existence, respect for your mind and heart as images of God, and the belief that you are in some sense my brother in Christ.

However, you seem to believe that by giving you love in Christ, and love for Christ in you, I am somehow taking my love and attention away from Christ.

This is like saying that breathing in and out is disrespecting the importance of air.

The communion of saints is one, in heaven and on earth, because Christ is one in us.

Or let’s think about it another way.

Christ shows His love for humanity by making us holy; Mary is one of His masterpieces. He loves her. He urges us to honor her and call her blessed. If we don’t admire her, we are either blind to God’s work or stubbornly determined not to appreciate His plan of salvation.

Or look at it another way.

She is certainly a friend of the King! And as St. John Damascene notes, the King’s friends are identified with the King. If you don’t honor the King’s friends and at least give them feasts and welcome to your town, ask their counsel, and bow politely to them, you are disrespecting the King. You’re saying that you don’t love or fear the King, and don’t want his favor or aid or counsel. You’re saying that you don’t care whom he chooses to honor and favor; you’re greater than them and greater than him. You’re in rebellion.

And if that’s the principle with earthly, sinful friends of earthly kings, how much more with friends of Christ perfected by Him in Heaven?

Shrug. I guess nothing will convince you… but remember not to talk to anybody, because that’s taking your attention away from Christ also, isn’t it? Makes evangelization hard, but anything’s better than idolatrous communications with someone who’s not God.

Except you know that’s silly, and you know there are different levels of respect and communication that aren’t the same as the respect we pay to God.
 
maltmom said:
Thank you. I found it very visually appealing. For some reason I found the audio unnerving. I guess I’m so used to the version of Salve Regina that I had to turn off the audio. It was too deep and “dark.”
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Once while traveling in Europe I had two wonderful experiences. The first was being in a massive Catholic Cathedral while Gregorian Chant music was being sung, it was incredible experience.
The second, was being in massive Anglican Church in London area, while the children’s boy’s choir was practicing their hymns. That music was angelic, and people hearing were caught up into 7th heaven.
 
Another here @ CAF, recently caused me to think on these 2 NT Songs. How did Luke know these … 40-50 years after they were sung ? Yes, he interviewed Mary and others in his research, but it strikes me they look very similar in structure to the Psalms of David, that the Hebrews sang at Temple worship.
Could it be that Zechariah & Mary wrote these songs FOR THE CHURCH, and they were being sung in Christian worship by both Hebrew & Gentles followers of Christ ?

If so, this would be overpowering scriptural evidence for the earliest origins of honorific devotions being shown ( sung to ) these two great patriarchs.

What does our Church tradition say on their origins ?
 
AmosTown said:
Wait a second. I understand its public prayer, but you pray from your heart correct? That makes it personal prayer from the heart in common with other people praying the same prayer.
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Yes this is true. But that is giving your personal and full participation to the public prayer.
AmosTown said:
Code: 
I'm reading my grandpas missal and Mary and the saints are prayed to in the mass all over the place.
In fact that comments seems to be against from everything I study and read. I looked in grandpas missal and here is just one example “Accept most Holy Trinity this offering which we are making to Thee in remembrance of the passion resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ Our Lord and in honor of blessed Mary ever virgin blessed John the baptist, the holy apostles Peter and Paul and of these and of all the saints that it may add to their honor and aid our salvation and may they deign to intercede in heaven for us who cherish their memory on earth. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen”
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Yes this is a reflection of the missal you are using. In your Granmpa’s day, there was another missal and such prayers were more common in his generation. The new ordinary does not have these prayers in it anymore. It is not required that they be a part of Mass.
AmosTown said:
Therefore, I don’t have to cherish their memory because that would be devotion to them. And I don’t have to be believe it will aid our salvation because I don’t have to pray to them for interceding in heaving for us.
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I think the problem with this is that it seems to deny the Communion of saints, which is an essential Catholic doctrine. It is mentioned in the Creed because it is part of the Apostolic faith to cherish the saints, those still here on earth, and those who have gone forward to their heavenly reward. There is a difference between refusing to ask your faithful friends to pray for you, because you are prideful and don’t think you need it, and refusing to ask them because you don’t really believe they are members of the Body of Christ. Does that make sense?

This “just me and Jesus -nobody else” mentality is problematic, because it denies the nature of the Body of Christ. We are members one of another, and those who have gone on before us are still members of us. One can take the attitude that Paul speaks of in his letter :

1 Cor 12:20-22
"As it is, there are many members, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

But I think the Apostle is clear this is a problematic attitude. Jettisoning those who have gone before us in faith is no different. And with Mary, it is saying “I have no need for the uterus” that was the Ark of the covenant in which Jesus was formed. All rejection of the Church’s position on Mary and the saints goes back to the doctrines about Christ. When you start to unravel it, you end up unravelling part of the Gospel of Christ.
AmosTown said:
That seems to conflict with the saying I don’t have to have devotion or prayers to Mary and the saints. Since these kinds of prayers are said in every mass, which is suppose to be prayed by me in common with the church, is it correct that if I omit participation in parts of mass prayers, I can still be Catholic?
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I think when you attend Mass, you will find that it is quite different from your Grandpa’s missal. I also think it will be helpful for you to pray “Lord, help my unbelief!” with regard to these things. Ask Jesus to give you His Heart and HIs attitude toward His mother. You are joined to the Son, and His mother is now your mother.
 
Well, of course they resemble the Psalms and other pieces of Biblical poetry/song. If they didn’t, they’d not only be weird for Hebrew poetry, but they’d also be losing their rhetorical/prophetic power of making references to other Scripture.

We don’t know much about how prophetic utterances worked, but we do know that the Jewish people and the Jewish prophets took pains to remember the words God gave them.
 
Mintaka said:
Well, of course they resemble the Psalms and other pieces of Biblical poetry/song. If they didn’t, they’d not only be weird for Hebrew poetry, but they’d also be losing their rhetorical/prophetic power of making references to other Scripture.

We don’t know much about how prophetic utterances worked, but we do know that the Jewish people and the Jewish prophets took pains to remember the words God gave them.
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Yes, David probably (certainly) would record his inspirations at once … while they were fresh on his mind.

Both Zechariah & Mary would of done likewise…as they ‘pondered’ things in their heart. Memorization was very strong in that age too ! People knew there Psalms / Songs by heart, since they probably didn’t have pew hymnals.
 
guanophore said:
I think when you attend Mass, you will find that it is quite different from your Grandpa’s missal. I also think it will be helpful for you to pray “Lord, help my unbelief!” with regard to these things. Ask Jesus to give you His Heart and HIs attitude toward His mother. You are joined to the Son, and His mother is now your mother.
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Now I am really confused. The reason I started thinking about Catholicism is because I knew I was baptized Catholic and after grandpa past it seemed like I should think a little more about my family roots.

He left all his holy books to me and I feel the need to look into them. I thought he must now be a saint and Catholics pray to saints so maybe Christians are supposed to pray to saints.

But now all these answers here are confusing me worse. The latest responses I’m reading here kind of say that the books I’m reading are wrong?

Are they wrong? I don’t get it ? How am I supposed to understand Catholics if I am getting different answers from different people and Catholic books.

Is this quote a misprint to something? Its printed in the Catholic mass book. Are there different Catholic churches?

“The Holy Mass [The Divine Liturgy] is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart, and mouth all that happens at the Altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him, in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way you have prayed Holy Mass.”

– His Holiness, Pope Saint Pius X
 
=porthos11;10265987]Advocate can also be used for any defense attorney, so I don’t find that problematic.
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As for Pope Benedict finding
problematic, do you have a link to the document?
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He CAN"T; its in the Catechism:😃

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
 
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