Mary and her Virginity

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That’s absolutely right, but what does that have to do with what Scripture DOES explicitly say regarding the fact that Joseph abstained from having union with Mary UNTIL Jesus was born? You can’t declare something to be true when it is contrary to Scripture. You can’t make it up as you go just to fit with you’re already unbiblical doctrines and dogmas.
That’s not completely fair of you to say, now is it? 😛 You were called out on something and then resort to attack the guy’s faith. Again, the Reformers held this belief that the Theotokos was virgin her whole life, why don’t you?

When I ask God to protect my family until I return from somewhere, does that mean I want Him to stop protecting them when I return? Heavens, no! That is essentially what the word has in the context of the Koine Greek in the NT. Context is everything, my friend. 😃

In Christ,
Andrew
 
That’s not completely fair of you to say, now is it? 😛 You were called out on something and then resort to attack the guy’s faith. Again, the Reformers held this belief that the Theotokos was virgin her whole life, why don’t you?

When I ask God to protect my family until I return from somewhere, does that mean I want Him to stop protecting them when I return? Heavens, no! That is essentially what the word has in the context of the Koine Greek in the NT. Context is everything, my friend. 😃

In Christ,
Andrew
I have to disagree with you my friend. I’m not attacking, I’m merely holding fast to what the Scriptures say. The word in Greek used for UNTIL does not lend itself to mean never. I do agree with you one one thing though, context is everything.🙂
 
So then, why wouldn’t we conclude that Mary had a natural normal marriage?
“until”. The Greek “heos” does not imply that Joseph and Mary had marital relations following Jesus’ birth. This conjunction is often used (translated “to” or “till”) to indicate a select period of time, without implying change in the future. Read 2 Sam. 6:23 “And Mi’chal the daughter of Saul had no child to (heos) the day of her death”. So what happened after she died? Did she start shooting out little baby boys and girls all over the place? In 1 Tim. 4:13 Paul says “Till (heos) I come , attend unto reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine”. And then what? Forget about reading, exhortation, and doctrine?
 
“until”. The Greek “heos” does not imply that Joseph and Mary had marital relations following Jesus’ birth. This conjunction is often used (translated “to” or “till”) to indicate a select period of time, without implying change in the future. Read 2 Sam. 6:23 “And Mi’chal the daughter of Saul had no child to (heos) the day of her death”. So what happened after she died? Did she start shooting out little baby boys and girls all over the place? In 1 Tim. 4:13 Paul says “Till (heos) I come , attend unto reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine”. And then what? Forget about reading, exhortation, and doctrine?
Your argument is weak. Sorry.
 
So then, why wouldn’t we conclude that Mary had a natural normal marriage?
Because she gave birth to GOD, The Creator of all things, including her. How many normal married people have done that? That’s why.
 
Because she gave birth to GOD, The Creator of all things, including her. How many normal married people have done that? That’s why.
So then you and your church are the authority on this over anything that the Scriptures say or don’t say about it?
 
So then you and your church are the authority on this over anything that the Scriptures say or don’t say about it?
People have been giving you reason to consider the fact that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus Christ using Scripture, yet all you have to say is:
Your argument is weak. Sorry.
I’m fairly certain that a reason for making that accusation would be more than appreciated. Just a thought.

You have also, to my knowledge, declined to answer why you choose not to believe that Mary was a virgin when the even the Reformers believed that she was. It is only modern interpretation of the Bible, according to these sources, that suggests that she wasn’t a virgin. Why should modern interpretation be “more accurate” than traditional interpretation? Weren’t there people back then more likely to know Mary personally and know for themselves that she was a perpetual virgin?
 
The questions are…
Where in the scripture does it imply that she remained a virgin throughout her life?
Why is it so important that she have remained so?
Gabriel of 12;

Before one can get into the scriptural foundation of this doctrine of Perpetual Virginity of Mary from an R.C.I.A class. It would be helpful to understand a little about “typology”. Understanding through scriptural typology, by the way Jesus reveals this interpretation from Luke 24:27… That Mary’s virginity is essential to the first Christians. For one the Prophets spoke of the Virginity, God has always referenced his people in the female context, and the bride of Jesus is a Virgin bride. By typology Mary represents the Whole of Christianity to the Bride of Jesus Christ. She must be holy, Virgin, spotless, without stain or wrinkle. In short what I have introduced to you the importance of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity.

Following are some scriptures that may help you reflect with the help of the Holy Spirit God has promised you. God bless you on your journey

Mary Perpetual Virgin;
Code:
  Luke 1: 34 **But Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?" **12 35 and the angel said to her in reply, **"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. **Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

  (vs.34, how can this be, since I have no relations with a man?) The Nazarene Vow between the husband and Maiden or Father and Maiden. Zechariah got cursed for doubting the angel Gabriel, Mary did not get cursed because she stated she knew no man, and made a Nazarene vow to remain a virgin. Samson and John the Baptist also took a Nazarene vow. (other Nazarene vow takers Samson, John the Baptist etc.)

 Numbers 30: 4-17 "When a woman, while still a maiden in her father's house, makes a vow to the LORD, or binds herself to a pledge, 5 if her father learns of her vow or the pledge to which she bound herself and says nothing to her about it, then any vow or any pledge she has made remains valid. 7 "If she marries while under a vow or under a rash pledge to which she bound herself, 8 and her husband learns of it, yet says nothing to her that day about it, then the vow or pledge she had made remains valid.14 "Any vow or any pledge that she makes under oath to mortify herself, her husband can either allow to remain valid or render null and void. 17 These are the statutes which the LORD prescribed through Moses concerning the relationship between a husband and his wife, as well as between a father and his daughter while she is still a maiden in her father's house.
Mary Perpetual Virgin prophecised

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." 16 To the woman he said: “I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master.”

Isaiah 66: 7 Before she comes to labor, she gives birth; Before the pains come upon her, she safely delivers a male child. 8a. Who ever heard of such a thing, or saw the like? Can a country be brought forth in one day, or a nation be born in a single moment? 9 Shall I bring a mother to the point of birth, and yet not let her child be born? says the LORD; Or shall I who allow her to conceive, yet close her womb? says your God. 10 Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad because of her, all you who love her; Exult, exult with her, all you who were mourning over her! 14 When you see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bodies flourish like the grass; The LORD’S power shall be known to his servants, but to his enemies, his wrath.

Galatians 4: 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to ransom those under the law, so that we might receive adoption. 6 As proof that you are children, 4 God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave but a child, and if a child then also an heir, through God.

Psalms 45: 10 Daughters of kings are your lovely wives; a princess arrayed in Ophir’s gold comes to stand at your right hand. 14 All glorious is the king’s daughter as she enters, her raiment threaded with gold; 15 In embroidered apparel she is led to the king. .
18 I will make your name renowned through all generations; thus nations shall praise you forever

Isaiah 62: 3 You shall be a glorious crown in the hand of the LORD, a royal diadem held by your God. 4 No more shall men call you “Forsaken,” or your land “Desolate,” But you shall be called “My Delight,” and your land “Espoused.” For the LORD delights in you,
and makes your land his spouse. 5 As a young man marries a virgin, your Builder shall marry you; And as a bridegroom rejoices in his bride so shall your God rejoice in you.

Isaiah 49: 1 Hear me, O coastlands, listen, O distant peoples. The LORD called me from birth, from my mother’s womb he gave me my name.

Isaiah 7: 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.

Revelation 12: 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, 11 so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half-year. 15 The serpent, 12 however, spewed a torrent of water out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with the current. 16 But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed out of its mouth. 17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

cont.
 
cont.

Isaiah 54: 5 For he who has become your husband is your Maker; his name is the LORD of hosts; Your redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, called God of all the earth.
Isaiah 62: 5 As a young man marries a virgin, your Builder shall marry you; And as a bridegroom rejoices in his bride so shall your God rejoice in you.

Hosea 2: 21 I will espouse you to me forever: I will espouse you in right and in justice, in love and in mercy; 22 I will espouse you in fidelity, and you shall know the LORD.

Song of Songs 2: 1 I am a flower of Sharon, a lily of the valley. 2 As a lily among thorns, so is my beloved among women. 3 As an apple tree among the trees of the woods, so is my lover among men. I delight to rest in his shadow, and his fruit is sweet to my mouth. 4 He brings me into the banquet hall and his emblem over me is love.

Psalm 45: 18 I will make your name renowned through all generations; thus nations shall praise you forever

Luke 1: 48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
 
That’s not entirely correct. There has always been the debate on this, especially when the Scriptures tell us otherwise.
Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and even Wesley all believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.

An example:

Luther: “Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb… This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a rigin after that” (Luther’s Works)

Calvin: “Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned,” (Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke from Calvin’s Commentaries)

Zwingli: - “I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the Gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.” (Zwingli Opera)

John Wesley: “I believe…He was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.” (Letter to a Roman Catholic)

So it must have been some later genius of Protestantism that decided Mary was no longer a virgin after marriage.

Scripture does give us the Marian dogmas, however, like the Trinity, they are not explicitly stated.

I recommend you get a hold of Mark Shea’s 3 volume set on Mary, Mother of the Son or Tim Staples CD sets on the Marian Dogmas. These two works expel all the myths associated with Mary as well give a thorough look at what scripture really says about Mary. The early church evidence for the Marian beliefs are overwhelmingly in favor of the Catholic teaching. Don’t let your instruction into the faith be limited to the RCIA program. Here in Australia, it has been found to be wanting in thorough teaching.
 
So then you and your church are the authority on this over anything that the Scriptures say or don’t say about it?
You asked why can’t we assume Our Mother had a natural normal marriage, I responded with an answer that she was raising God. Wait. You do believe Jesus IS God, right? You’re of that belief, not that He was one of multiple gods or we’re all gods or He was created or anything, right?
 
So then you and your church are the authority on this over anything that the Scriptures say or don’t say about it?
A common misconception. The Church is never over the scriptures but a servant to them. The scriptures themselves tell us that the oral tradition is to be held as well as the written tradition. The Church never invents dogma. The Church gave you the bible. The Church decided what books would be included in the canon of scripture. In Acts 15 we see that Paul and Barnabas could not settle the dispute over circumcision. They then take the matter to Peter who settles the matter - and all agreed with him. Did they debate the issues over the pages of scripture. No - they took the matter to the Church who declared the matter solved. So for 2000 years the Church continues to honor Mary because as she prophesied “all generations shall call me blessed”.
 
When I ask God to protect my family until I return from somewhere, does that mean I want Him to stop protecting them when I return? Heavens, no! That is essentially what the word has in the context of the Koine Greek in the NT. Context is everything, my friend. 😃
Very good! 👍
 
A common misconception.
Oh really?
The scriptures themselves tell us that the oral tradition is to be held as well as the written tradition. The Church never invents dogma.
Then who did?
The Church gave you the bible.
The Early Church gave us the Bible
The Church decided what books would be included in the canon of scripture. In Acts 15 we see that Paul and Barnabas could not settle the dispute over circumcision. They then take the matter to Peter who settles the matter - and all agreed with him. Did they debate the issues over the pages of scripture. No - they took the matter to the Church who declared the matter solved.
That’s not correct
So for 2000 years the Church continues to honor Mary because as she prophesied “all generations shall call me blessed”.
So what does that have to do with anything?/
QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
 
You asked why can’t we assume Our Mother had a natural normal marriage, I responded with an answer that she was raising God. Wait. You do believe Jesus IS God, right? You’re of that belief, not that He was one of multiple gods or we’re all gods or He was created or anything, right?
That’s a ridiculous thing to say and you know it. The issue at hand never suggests that Jesus is anything other than God. The Scriptures prove that.
 
That’s absolutely right, but what does that have to do with what Scripture DOES explicitly say regarding the fact that Joseph abstained from having union with Mary UNTIL Jesus was born? You can’t declare something to be true when it is contrary to Scripture. You can’t make it up as you go just to fit with you’re already unbiblical doctrines and dogmas.
It’s very simple. Until, is in the future, hasn’t happened yet. Have you ever heard the terms “Until hell freezes over”? , “Until the end of time”?

Obviously neither of these have happened even though they have been stated over and over again. The same can be applied in this case.

You can’t declare something to be false based on scripture, and you can’t make it up as you go to fit your unbiblical doctrines and dogmas.

You are simply trying to have it both ways, and sorry, it’s just not working.
 
It’s very simple. Until, is in the future, hasn’t happened yet. Have you ever heard the terms “Until hell freezes over”? , “Until the end of time”?

Obviously neither of these have happened even though they have been stated over and over again. The same can be applied in this case.

You can’t declare something to be false based on scripture, and you can’t make it up as you go to fit your unbiblical doctrines and dogmas.

You are simply trying to have it both ways, and sorry, it’s just not working.
Nice attempt at ignoring Scripture to satisy your own manmade beliefs but it’s not working for you. Try reading the whole context of Scripture sometime and then truly reflect upon what you read and then ask yourself if the Mary of the Bible and the Mary of Catholic theology are anything alike. I did this after being a practicing Catholic all my life and I had to say tht they are nothing alike.
 
Nice attempt at ignoring Scripture to satisy your own manmade beliefs but it’s not working for you. Try reading the whole context of Scripture sometime and then truly reflect upon what you read and then ask yourself if the Mary of the Bible and the Mary of Catholic theology are anything alike. I did this after being a practicing Catholic all my life and I had to say tht they are nothing alike.
I have my friend, more than you know, and I hold very strongly to my belief. As do many others.

It has been shown to you over and over, yet you are the one who refuses to see

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I come from a very strong protestant background. In fact, my grandfather was a Presbyterian minister for many many years. Needless to say, I attended his church(s), as well as Southern Baptist, Nazarene, AoG, Methodist, and the list goes on and on.

Unfortuantely, some of those denominations, (or at least the pastors) were the ones I saw seeing twist scripture to their liking. I don’t know if it was intentional on their part or not, but I saw it, and lived it my brother.

All I can say is, I’m praying for you.
 
Nice attempt at ignoring Scripture to satisy your own manmade beliefs but it’s not working for you. Try reading the whole context of Scripture sometime and then truly reflect upon what you read and then ask yourself if the Mary of the Bible and the Mary of Catholic theology are anything alike. I did this after being a practicing Catholic all my life and I had to say tht they are nothing alike.
How have I, or anyone ignored scripture? I believe all of your arguements have been sufficiently answered.
 
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