Mary and Original Sin

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If Mary, who was born without original sin, was a huge success as a human being, so great in fact that she qualified to give birth to God the Son, and is now a queen of heaven, then:

Why wouldn’t God have all of us born without the original sin, thereby making every man a king of heaven, equal to Mary, if absence of that pesky OS is the only condition for such glory?

If more than that is needed, then how was Mary different from Eve who, while also in the state of original natural happiness, still sinned? Was Mary herself essentially a demi-god in nature? Was Mary perhaps given a massive amount of grace, including fear of hell, in addition to keep her on the straight and narrow? Did she exist in the state of glory from the beginning?

Thanks.
 
please STUDY the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception

you can can google it
 
You have it backwards. Mary was granted the privilege of the Immaculate Conception because she was going to be the Theotokos. None of that (including her present title of Queen of Heaven that results from being the King’s mother) is something she earned by “being so great.” From beginning to end, it was all God’s free gift.

Could God do the same for the rest of us? Presumably, and ultimately He will perfect us and bring us body and soul into His Presence if we don’t finally reject Him. He goes about that differently with us, though.

Mary is in no way a goddess. She is a human woman, but an example of the best of what a human can be unencumbered by sin. She does indeed serve as sort of a counterpart to Eve. It was Adam, as progenitor of all humanity, whose disobedience alone could alienate all his descendants from God – but Eve, the woman made from Adam’s body, disobeyed first and paved the way for Adam’s sin. Jesus, the Second Adam and God incarnate, was the only one whose obedience unto death could undo the results of Adam’s failure. God could have stopped there, but He graciously arranged that there should also be an innocent human woman, who would be permitted to symbolically counter Eve’s error with an act of obedience that would pave the way for the Incarnation, with the new Adam this time taking flesh from the body of the new Eve.
 
dchernik said:
If Mary, who was born without original sin, was a huge success as a human being, so great in fact that she qualified to give birth to God the Son, and is now a queen of heaven, then:

Why wouldn’t God have all of us born without the original sin, thereby making every man a king of heaven, equal to Mary, if absence of that pesky OS is the only condition for such glory?

If more than that is needed, then how was Mary different from Eve who, while also in the state of original natural happiness, still sinned? Was Mary herself essentially a demi-god in nature? Was Mary perhaps given a massive amount of grace, including fear of hell, in addition to keep her on the straight and narrow? Did she exist in the state of glory from the beginning?

Thanks.
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A thread very close in proximity to this topic was done here at CAF in November of 2010. Here is the link : Mary a Saint or a demi-god ? There are several good links provided on that thread. There was a notable quote from post # 11 by Joe Kelly -
She is Mary, the Mother of God and Our Mother, preserved from sin and entrusted to all who would seek to be beloved Disciples, ever Immaculate and ever Virgin, mother and maiden, wiser than Solomon yet simple in her humility. Mary.
Mary, meek and humble, pray for us.
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To clarify, there is no such thing as a demi-god.

There is the Godhead- the Holy Trinity, and then there are created beings - both rational and not. But even if we were for an instant and for the sake of argument, to entertain the erroneous notion that there were such a thing as a demi-god and that our Blessed Mother was one, how is it that Mary calls God, “my Savior” ?

I agree with Usagi that the reasoning leans backwards :
dchernik said:
. . . Why wouldn’t God have all of us born without the original sin, thereby making every man a king of heaven, equal to Mary, if absence of that pesky OS is the only condition for such glory? . . .
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If He did, then He would have had to start with Eve and Adam , in which case, our Blessed Mother would not have needed to be born, and Jesus would not need to have taken on our human nature.

As things are, because of Christ’s life death and Resurrection, man is now called to a much higher state than he enjoyed prior to the fall.

Though it might not initially appear to be worded that way, the OP is essentially asking whether man should be deprived of free will.
 
dchernik said:
If Mary, who was born without original sin, was a huge success as a human being, so great in fact that she qualified to give birth to God the Son, and is now a queen of heaven, then:

Why wouldn’t God have all of us born without the original sin, thereby making every man a king of heaven, equal to Mary, if absence of that pesky OS is the only condition for such glory?

If more than that is needed, then how was Mary different from Eve who, while also in the state of original natural happiness, still sinned? Was Mary herself essentially a demi-god in nature? Was Mary perhaps given a massive amount of grace, including fear of hell, in addition to keep her on the straight and narrow? Did she exist in the state of glory from the beginning?

Thanks.
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God’s essence is to exist. The greater a creature exists, the more the creature becomes like His Creator.

Without sinning, Adam and Eve would never die but live contented lives only partially knowing their Creator.

Felix culpa.

Through death and resurrection made possible by Christ’s life, death and resurrection, the creature may now participate in the very existence of His Creator.

Which existence; immortal life in the garden, or eternal life in the Trinity is the greater?
 
Consider angels. They were created in the state of considerable natural happiness. At that first moment, they were all good and remarkable creatures.

Then, at the second moment, they were given grace. Some accepted the grace and were confirmed in goodness and glorified thereupon; others rejected the grace and permanently became demons.

Thus, Lucifer, was example, was created already messed up in the head at moment 1, but this defect did not manifest itself until moment 2. We might ask, “Why did God created thus?” Well, “The Lord said to him: Who gives one person speech? Who makes another mute or deaf, seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?” (Ex 4:11) The fall of the angels served God’s purpose and was fully part of the divine plan and providence.

Can we say similarly, that where Eve failed, a bit like Lucifer, Mary succeeded, rather like the good angels? But that again means that Eve was created easily given or “succumbable” to temptation, while Mary was created much more steadfast. Eve then had a major character flaw. It is Mary’s greater natural righteousness through which she persevered. So, Mary is marked by 2 attributes: 1) her nature is not wounded like that of the rest of up; 2) she is truly a saint. Eve had (1); many humans have (2); only she had both. She is unique and can be called a demigod for this reason.

This issue has nothing to do with free will, because Mary did not lack free will, but chose to stay loyal to God where Eve disobeyed.

The conclusion is obvious: Eve was created weak, unlike Mary, because the fall of humans somehow served God’s purposes. A world in which there is original sin must then be ultimately superior to a world in which it never occurs.
 
No, the Mother of God was not conceived miraculously. Her parents were St. Joachim and St. Anna.
 
dchernik said:
Consider angels. They were created in the state of considerable natural happiness. At that first moment, they were all good and remarkable creatures.

Then, at the second moment, they were given grace. Some accepted the grace and were confirmed in goodness and glorified thereupon; others rejected the grace and permanently became demons.

Thus, Lucifer, was example, was created already messed up in the head at moment 1, but this defect did not manifest itself until moment 2. We might ask, “Why did God created thus?” Well, “The Lord said to him: Who gives one person speech? Who makes another mute or deaf, seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?” (Ex 4:11) The fall of the angels served God’s purpose and was fully part of the divine plan and providence.

Can we say similarly, that where Eve failed, a bit like Lucifer, Mary succeeded, rather like the good angels? But that again means that Eve was created easily given or “succumbable” to temptation, while Mary was created much more steadfast. Eve then had a major character flaw. It is Mary’s greater natural righteousness through which she persevered. So, Mary is marked by 2 attributes: 1) her nature is not wounded like that of the rest of up; 2) she is truly a saint. Eve had (1); many humans have (2); only she had both. She is unique and can be called a demigod for this reason.

This issue has nothing to do with free will, because Mary did not lack free will, but chose to stay loyal to God where Eve disobeyed.

The conclusion is obvious: Eve was created weak, unlike Mary, because the fall of humans somehow served God’s purposes. A world in which there is original sin must then be ultimately superior to a world in which it never occurs.
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We have to realize that its all about the human will. God creates* no one* to sin. The reason we venerate Mary as we do to begin with is simply because she chose rightly. She said ‘yes’; Eve said ‘no’. Eve was blest with greater gifts than Mary. Otherwise, they both started without OS. We, too, receive that privilege at Baptism, but there’s no guarantee that we’ll continue to appreciate that fact, and remain turned away from sin, and towards God. Mary, however, did just that, because she chose to. And in any case her choices and the grace given her benefit us all.
 
Usagi said:
You have it backwards. Mary was granted the privilege of the Immaculate Conception because she was going to be the Theotokos. None of that (including her present title of Queen of Heaven that results from being the King’s mother) is something she earned by “being so great.” From beginning to end, it was all God’s free gift.

Could God do the same for the rest of us? Presumably, and ultimately He will perfect us and bring us body and soul into His Presence if we don’t finally reject Him. He goes about that differently with us, though.

Mary is in no way a goddess. She is a human woman, but an example of the best of what a human can be unencumbered by sin. She does indeed serve as sort of a counterpart to Eve. It was Adam, as progenitor of all humanity, whose disobedience alone could alienate all his descendants from God – but Eve, the woman made from Adam’s body, disobeyed first and paved the way for Adam’s sin. Jesus, the Second Adam and God incarnate, was the only one whose obedience unto death could undo the results of Adam’s failure. God could have stopped there, but He graciously arranged that there should also be an innocent human woman, who would be permitted to symbolically counter Eve’s error with an act of obedience that would pave the way for the Incarnation, with the new Adam this time taking flesh from the body of the new Eve.
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She is the New Eve, and her active participation continues.

Please read the Catechism.
 
fhansen said:
We have to realize that its all about the human will. God creates* no one* to sin. The reason we venerate Mary as we do to begin with is simply because she chose rightly. She said ‘yes’; Eve said ‘no’. Eve was blest with greater gifts than Mary. Otherwise, they both started without OS. We, too, receive that privilege at Baptism, but there’s no guarantee that we’ll continue to appreciate that fact, and remain turned away from sin, and towards God. Mary, however, did just that, because she chose to. And in any case her choices and the grace given her benefit us all.
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Humans after Baptism have Original Sin wiped but are still left with the stain. Our Lady was conceived with no OS, and therefore, no stain either. She was preserved from sin, from conception, onward. Her faith grew in terms of Wisdom - understanding the Divine Mission of her Son and no doubt the sacrifices she would have to make.
 
friardchips said:
Humans after Baptism have Original Sin wiped but are still left with the stain. Our Lady was conceived with no OS, and therefore, no stain either. She was preserved from sin, from conception, onward. Her faith grew in terms of Wisdom - understanding the Divine Mission of her Son and no doubt the sacrifices she would have to make.
Click to expand...
We have the stain removed as well-we only battle with concupiscence. The main point is that Mary always had a* choice*, as we do. She was not guaranteed sinlessness.
 
dchernik said:
Consider angels. They were created in the state of considerable natural happiness. At that first moment, they were all good and remarkable creatures.

Then, at the second moment, they were given grace. Some accepted the grace and were confirmed in goodness and glorified thereupon; others rejected the grace and permanently became demons.

Thus, Lucifer, was example, was created already messed up in the head at moment 1, but this defect did not manifest itself until moment 2. We might ask, “Why did God created thus?” Well, “The Lord said to him: Who gives one person speech? Who makes another mute or deaf, seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?” (Ex 4:11) The fall of the angels served God’s purpose and was fully part of the divine plan and providence.

Can we say similarly, that where Eve failed, a bit like Lucifer, Mary succeeded, rather like the good angels? But that again means that Eve was created easily given or “succumbable” to temptation, while Mary was created much more steadfast. Eve then had a major character flaw. It is Mary’s greater natural righteousness through which she persevered. So, Mary is marked by 2 attributes: 1) her nature is not wounded like that of the rest of up; 2) she is truly a saint. Eve had (1); many humans have (2); only she had both. She is unique and can be called a demigod for this reason.

This issue has nothing to do with free will, because Mary did not lack free will, but chose to stay loyal to God where Eve disobeyed.

The conclusion is obvious: Eve was created weak, unlike Mary, because the fall of humans somehow served God’s purposes. A world in which there is original sin must then be ultimately superior to a world in which it never occurs.
Click to expand...
Our Lady was and is Queen of Saints, a human one, but human having been born without Original Sin, therefore without the stain of sin, and thus it can be logically deduced, she was preserved from sin her whole life (Perpetual Virgin) but this was a gift from God. Mary is more than a saint - if you check on the type of reverence we are to pay toward the saints, the honour we pay to them is different (Dulia) toward the devotion which we show to Our Lady (Hyper-Dulia), and different again, toward God (Worship).
 
fhansen said:
We have the stain removed as well-we only battle with concupiscence.
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We mean the same thing here. I think of OS as more than a stain. I tend to think of the Concupiscence left over as the stain. But we are talking about the same thing. Our Lady had no Original Sin and therefore had no Concupscience to battle with, either.
The main point is that Mary always had a* choice*, as we do. She was not guaranteed sinlessness.
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Yes, in fact, she was. Eve was given a choice whether to sin - the temptation given by Satan; Our Lady was not tempted, she was given a choice to be the Mother of God, by the Angel Gabriel.
 
fhansen said:
We have the stain removed as well-we only battle with concupiscence. The main point is that Mary always had a* choice*, as we do. She was not guaranteed sinlessness.
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Actually I’ll retract this remark. Apparently the Church* does* hold, even if it hasn’t been officially defined, that Mary was kept free from all sin throughout her life. I’m not sure how her will fits into this, however, if, for example, her free choices are still foreseen and utilized by God, as with our own according to Church teachings.
 
Look at what God did to prepare the Ark of the covenant to carry two stone tablets. Would he not do more to prepare Mary to carry and care for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
She also walked with God his entire life on earth.
 
friardchips said:
We mean the same thing here. I think of OS as more than a stain. I tend to think of the Concupiscence left over as the stain. But we are talking about the same thing. Our Lady had no Original Sin and therefore had no Concupscience to battle with, either.

Yes, in fact, she was. Eve was given a choice whether to sin - the temptation given by Satan; Our Lady was not tempted, she was given a choice to be the Mother of God, by the Angel Gabriel.
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Yes 🙂
 
fhansen said:
Mary was kept free from all sin throughout her life. I’m not sure how her will fits into this…
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Was she a robot then? How can God “keep” anyone from sin? Were there severe beatings by God of Mary involved to teach her lessons?
 
friardchips said:
Eve was given a choice whether to sin - the temptation given by Satan; Our Lady was not tempted, she was given a choice to be the Mother of God, by the Angel Gabriel.
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Being given a choice means she had permission to refuse. Unless you continue that if Mary had refused, she would immediately then have been thrown into hell. But then it wasn’t much of a choice in the first place.

Maybe the correct psychology of Mary was that she never really entertained the idea of refusing. She was a good girl. But she was still allowed to calculate the pros and cons of agreeing to become mother of God, even if that benefits outweighed the costs was self-evident to her.
 
hu324b said:
Its called Grace.
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That’s why I ask in the OP whether Mary was flooded with a massive amount of grace. Seems like God would then have to manipulate her thoughts and emotions and bodily movements extensively to make them pure.
 
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