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dchernik
Guest
What “concupiscence”? Did she not enjoy food and drink? Was she sexually frigid? Virtue is hardly exhausted with being uninterested in sex.
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hu324b
Guest
God will also bring you to holiness by grace also if you accept it - Mary accepted the grace. Also if you walked with God since you were a teen you would be a different person also or would you?
If Jesus physically walked with you and taught you would you be the same person you are now - answer that question.
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fhansen
Guest
Concupiscence has nothing to do with enjoying anything; it has everything to do with being enslaved to such things. It is “inordinate desire”, not merely desire.
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fhansen
Guest
I really can’t answer this well. In God’s dealings with man generally, He doesn’t predetermine or predestine in any strict sense. He foreknows and may use people’s choices. Whether or not that applied to Mary, and her being “kept” or “preserved” from sin, IDK. Either way we honor her for her humble obedience-which means her *choice *to always obey God. Otherwise there would not be anything particularly praiseworthy about her actions.
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dchernik
Guest
Being enslaved to certain desires is called incontinence if the will does not consent to the desire and intemperance if the will does consent. Once again, however, temperance or self-control is just one of numerous other useful character traits.
Mary was set to marry Joseph before the annunciation, so she must have expected to have sex with him and even looked forward to it. Angel Gabriel’s visit was a surprise to her. Remaining a virgin was a sacrifice Mary had to make for the sake of a more highly valued good, namely, becoming the mother of God.
My point is that there seems to be only 3 possibilities:
- Either Mary was born simply a much better person than Eve and naturally succeeded where Eve failed.
- Or Mary was no better than Eve and in fact had all manner of temptations, but God punished her brutally in her youth for any transgressions, in her thoughts and in her words, in what she had done and in what she had failed to do, and eventually straightened her out so she became a holy woman.
- Or God simply controlled her thoughts and emotions and body as if she were possessed, so if was not she who planned and acted but rather God.
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dchernik
Guest
Note that if (1) is true, and Mary was born a superior human being, then that means that she came to be as a baby but in a sense already fully formed, like angels.
The unrolling and determination of her potentialities – all highly wonderful – as a child, as she grew, was smooth and unforced and even ineluctable.
God’s grace may have been given, but in no greater amount than to anyone else. Mary’s nature almost sufficed for her coming to be naturally holy.
The unrolling and determination of her potentialities – all highly wonderful – as a child, as she grew, was smooth and unforced and even ineluctable.
God’s grace may have been given, but in no greater amount than to anyone else. Mary’s nature almost sufficed for her coming to be naturally holy.
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dchernik
Guest
Or do you really think that God could’ve picked a random slave-girl toiling in the fields and by copiously giving her “grace” made her exactly as good as Mary?
Why then the thousand-year-long history of the nation of Israel that culminates in Mary and Jesus? It can’t just be the Jewish religion, i.e., the strict monotheism, admittedly an island of sanity among the polytheistic nonsense around it.
It must have had something to do with genetic purification, which was in some part responsible for Mary’s natural perfection.
Why then the thousand-year-long history of the nation of Israel that culminates in Mary and Jesus? It can’t just be the Jewish religion, i.e., the strict monotheism, admittedly an island of sanity among the polytheistic nonsense around it.
It must have had something to do with genetic purification, which was in some part responsible for Mary’s natural perfection.
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NeedImprovement
Guest
One needs to have faith , not doubt , in God’s power. It’s a good starting point.
Then, with our faith, we need to pray :* Lex Orandi Lex Credendi*.
St. Augustine says that faith is belief in those things we do not see, and the reward of our faith is that we shall see all we believed.
Since the Church prays this way, we have to believe that it is possible for God to preserve us from sin - particularly because God is our Savior.
{Highlights mine}
In terms which should be easy enough to understand, one prayer concludes this way, “. . . but*** deliver us from evi**l*.” And each time that prayer is prayed during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (OF), it is directly followed with the prayer -It would seem logical that anyone who recites those prayers, would tend to hope and believe that God will keep/save/deliver them from, or help them to overcome, sin. Otherwise, what would be the point in praying them ?
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NeedImprovement
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It really is time to get better informed. God would not have to manipulate her thoughts and emotions and bodily movements if her soul was pure because then her body would obey her soul. She would thus be naturally drawn to God and desire to remain in close communion with Him, further reinforcing that bond when she bore Him in her womb (“with love beyond all telling”), and then had Him with her as her Son . . .
The* Immaculate Conception* is a singular privilege. Please,at least have a look at the short version. It will help keep your arguments from becoming less and less plausible:
EWTN ; IMMACULATE CONCEPTION DEFINED BY PIUS IX ,Pope John Paul II
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NeedImprovement
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friardchips
Guest
-this.
Dchernik, the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin was a singular privilege for she who was to become the Mother of God, by her “yes”. Yes, she was human but was preserved from Original Sin, and the consequences, thereof.
Her purity (a more respectful term), free from inordinate desire, with the only desire for all things holy, all things pertaining to God, meant that when the question was to come, from an Angel, she was prepared.
This holiness was needed because although was never tempted to sin, Our Lady could have put her motherly concerns before her son’s divine mission, which, as we learn from Simeon, was insurmountable suffering along with the incomparable joy that she was also experiencing, which came from being the Mother of God.
Our Lady still had to make choices and be fervent in her faith, but these choices were not whether or not to sin, but what the bests things to do were, in each case scenario. When we open ourselves up to grace, we become God-directed/guided. Everyday we choose whether we say “yes” to God, or “no”. Our Lady’s “yes”, then having the Word Incarnate inside of her for nine months, filled her with other incomparable graces she would have needed to be the Mother of God - animated by faith from being immersed in the Holy Spirit and filled by Him, leading to the Magnificat.
Our Lady still had to trust explicitly in Jesus, who would bring great joy, but who would also suffer, and in so doing, following with God trustfully, would require of her, obedience, in order to trust Him, despite knowing from Simeon that He would suffer greatly and that she would suffer because of it, too, eventually.
Our Lady was obviously prayerful to a degree we might never understand and this openness to holiness, made this way from conception, by no means diminishes in severity, the difficulties and trials she had to overcome - the opposite, in fact; reason being, that each situation in life brings with it the level of seriousness, relative to our state.
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dchernik
Guest
My point exactly. It was her nature, the way she was conceived, not an afterward effect of some avalanche of grace that made her so holy.
God was a eugenicist, and He used Israel to make Mary well-born, not just rescuing her from original sin, but granting her “freedom from concupiscence, a disordered tendency which… comes from sin and inclines to sin.” (from the page you linked to)
Very well, let’s use “concupiscence” in the general sense of any sinful desire.
Again, either
(a) she had wicked desires which God slowly purged her from through penance and discipline, or
(b) she from her birth had no such desires at all.
If (b), then
(b.1) she was born or conceived already perfectly soul-made with all the virtues already present in her and set to manifest themselves fully as she was growing up, or
(b.2) God intervened many times in her life to crush those disordered desires.
If (b.2), then
(b.2.x) God threatened Mary with horrible punishments for desiring the wrong things, or
(b.2.y) God “gracefully” manipulated Mary’s thoughts, etc. to remove those desires quietly as they were about to arise.
I think (b.1) seems plausible, but state your view.
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friardchips
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setarcos
Guest
Greetings children of Gods love,
I have a few questions about Mary I’ve yet to resolve. I do so hope someone here may be able to help. My intent is not to offend anyone nor do Insult to Mary’s memory but merely to understand.
I have a few questions about Mary I’ve yet to resolve. I do so hope someone here may be able to help. My intent is not to offend anyone nor do Insult to Mary’s memory but merely to understand.
- Did Mary really say “yes” as emphasized in so many peoples views of her. I contend that accepting ones fate is not the same as choosing ones fate.
- Why is there so little said about and by the “Historical” Mary in scripture or even early tradition?
- Why did Jesus call her woman instead of Mother? That is not to say that woman was meant to be a derogatory title when considered as a general form of address.
- Why was Mary afraid when the Angel greeted her?
God bless everyone’s day/night and may he help you to help me understand these things.
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dchernik
Guest
Consider also that Mary was conceived without original sin, whereas even now those who are baptized in the Catholic Church as infants gestate in the womb while still afflicted with original sin. So, Mary’s body must’ve been exceedingly healthy and beautiful and strong, free from any inborn defects. This surely was crucial to her mission as mother of God. She had to be up for it physically, and that was no joke in the ancient times.
So, it seems that Mary was naturally a uniquely magnificent specimen of our species.
Whatever sanctifying grace was given to her, to further her own personal salvation, was ordinary, rather than extraordinary, and similar to graces given to would-be saints today.
She was different from other humans not by the amount or type of sanctifying grace bestowed on her, but (1) regarding the timing of removal of OS – at conception rather than from baptism at birth or as an adult; (2) her wonderful nature and personality, far exceeding even Eve.
But I could be wrong on this one; perhaps in Mary both spectacular nature and spectacular sanctifying grace during her entire life were combined.
So, it seems that Mary was naturally a uniquely magnificent specimen of our species.
Whatever sanctifying grace was given to her, to further her own personal salvation, was ordinary, rather than extraordinary, and similar to graces given to would-be saints today.
She was different from other humans not by the amount or type of sanctifying grace bestowed on her, but (1) regarding the timing of removal of OS – at conception rather than from baptism at birth or as an adult; (2) her wonderful nature and personality, far exceeding even Eve.
But I could be wrong on this one; perhaps in Mary both spectacular nature and spectacular sanctifying grace during her entire life were combined.
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setarcos
Guest
Please excuse my intrusion once again…I’ve forgot to ask one other thing,
Was it necessary that Jesus be born of a woman, more specifically born of a virgin instead of simply made wholly man ex nihilo as Adam was? If simply to fulfill prophecy this says nothing of necessity. So outside of fulfilling prophecy was there any reason for its necessity?
Thank you for tolerating such ignorance.
Was it necessary that Jesus be born of a woman, more specifically born of a virgin instead of simply made wholly man ex nihilo as Adam was? If simply to fulfill prophecy this says nothing of necessity. So outside of fulfilling prophecy was there any reason for its necessity?
Thank you for tolerating such ignorance.
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James248
Guest
- Yep.
- Becau
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James248
Guest
- Yep.
- Because the early Christians had bigger fish to fry, like facing persecution or dealing with Christological abuses.
- For me since Jesus is God, He can do ANYTHING He wants. He has his reasons. You just need to “Do what ever he tells you.”
- Well, when a random being appears without warning, and calls you full of grace, well, wouldn’t you be scared?
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fhansen
Guest
In your post you appeared to relate concupiscence to ordinary desires, whereas the church recognizes it otherwise. Maybe I misread you.
There is no necessity for anyone to sin.
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setarcos
Guest
Just curious, could God create such a being? If God gave to a creature through a unifying of the creatures will to his own all the abilities he has such as Omniscience, omnipotence, etc. not as a part of its own nature but as an expression of its own will unified with the Creators, would this creature be indistinguishable from God in the understanding and experience of other creatures?
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