Mary and Predestination

[elvisman]

You just can’t find anybody these days you know who believes that the Blessed Virgin is the Mediatrix of all grace. This is the thought that has caused me to jump up and down in anger more than anything else, because people have the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of Mercy and not only do they not trust Her, they also obstinately reject Her help.

To speak tactily and to the point and to pur my heart out, I do not care for the opinions of those who do not believe that the Blessed Virgin is the Mediatrix of all Grace. I was literally the biggest sinner on the block. I scandalized children, I ruined the lives of my schoolmates because I regarded them as criminals and not as friends and elevated myself to some kind of mini god. But then came the Blessed Virgin and it was She who converted me. And when I found out that the Blessed Virgin is called Mediatrix, something which I was totally ignorant of, I believed it instantly.

For those who say that the Church doesn’t teach this doctrine pose a claim that is wholly without foundation at all. Oh sure, even if I were to provide encyclicals, the writings of the saints, the magisterium and all that people will still say that this is not enough.

Here is authenthic Church teaching regarding Mary’s Mediation: ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm These are encyclicals of the Pope. ex cathedra.

The Holy Office actually approved the invocation of Mary as Co-Redemptrix in June 1913 and January 1914 (see Denzinger 3034 note). We have the Miraculous Medal a Church approved apparition which teaches in the most precise way not only Mary’s Mediation but also Mary’s love for us all.

The Church doesn’t hold that it is Mary that creates grace itself (like how heretics have dreamt!) The Church holds that God creates grace and gives it to us through Mary. God is the river while Mary is the channel.

Personally, I doubt whether Vatican II was infallible or that the statements of the last four popes were infallible at all. However, if you don’'t believe that Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace, then I have to say that it is your loss because you refuse to see the sweetness of the mercy of Mary and to let Her help you in our salvation. He who tries approaching the Son without the Mother is trying to fly without wings, said Pope Leo XIII, undoubtly one of the greatest and holiest Popes there have ever been. And He got his success because He always had recourse to Mary Immaculate to help him in His office of the Vicar of Christ. So did Pius X.

When Pope Pius XI, who was undoubtly a great Pope too though, refused to Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, we see what happened: world war II. When Pope Pius XII (although He did try to do something) failed to consecrate Russia with all the Bishops of the world, we had what undoubtly is one of the worst periods of human history.

I don’t think Vatican II did any good. Because if it did, if the truimph of the Immaculate Heart were here, why on earth are we always fearing day and night of a nuclear war? Why is the majority of the world still not catholic? Only 1.5 billion people are Catholic, out of a total of 6 billion.

If we have to save souls, we must save them through Mary. If Priests want to convert sinners, they must pray to Mary and ask Her to help them. She will definitely help them and will always extend Her hand towards sinners.

The problem I have with your position is that you raise the Blessed Mother to the level of Jesus. The Church does not teach this and never has.

Mary LEADS us to Christ - she is not another Christ. Your misunderstanding of the term “Mediatrix of all Graces” is what is confusing you. You somehow feel that it is she who is granting us God’s grace. She is our ADVOCATE - not our Savior. She is our Mother who leads us to Christ.

The term, Co-Redemptrix doesn’t mean that she is our Redeemer, along with Christ. The American-English rendering of the prefix, “Co” is NOT the same as the intended Latin use. The English use of it would imply an equal share. The Church refers to her as Co-Redemptrix because of her cooperation in God’s salvific plan - not that she saves us. It is because of her cooperation (sunergos) that wwe have a chance of salvation.

Lastly, contrary to what you have written - WE don’t save souls. The Blessed Mother doesn’t save souls - ONLY Christ does. For you to indicate otherwise is heresy.

 

[philipmarie]

Vince, please tell me how on earth I bring the Blessed Mother to the level of Jesus? Do I call Her God? Of course not, but I say that God has given Her limitless power with Him.

Also, in a certain sense we DO save souls, because if we pray for the conversion of one, or if we show him the doctrines of the Catholic faith and if we help him in his spiritual life, then we actually do save him. Just like how Saint Paul said in 1 Corinthinians 9:22: “To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak. I became all things to all men, that I might save all.”

Surely by himself Paul could not save anyone, but by the grace of God (and Mary) he actually did save souls by his preaching and spiritual guidance.

 

[elvisman]

Vince, please tell me how on earth I bring the Blessed Mother to the level of Jesus? Do I call Her God? Of course not, but I say that God has given Her limitless power with Him.

Also, in a certain sense we DO save souls, because if we pray for the conversion of one, or if we show him the doctrines of the Catholic faith and if we help him in his spiritual life, then we actually do save him. Just like how Saint Paul said in 1 Corinthinians 9:22: “To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak. I became all things to all men, that I might save all.”

Surely by himself Paul could not save anyone, but by the grace of God (and Mary) he actually did save souls by his preaching and spiritual guidance.

**You are speaking heresy friend because you ARE raising Mary to the level of God. You are saying that SHE gives us her grace so we can be saved. **Mary does NOT have limitless power and the Church does NOT teach this. She is subject to Almighty God and so is St. Paul. NEITHER of them have ever saved one, single soul. ONLY Christ can.

It is Catholics like you, who espouse these heretical beliefs that confuse and dismay non-Catholics into thinking that we are idolators.

And you’re wrong - we don’t save souls. We intercede for one another and petition GOD to save their soul. You are WAY out of line here and I suggest you consult the Catechism.

 

[philipmarie]

Vince, papal bulls aren’t subject to the magisterium. If a Pope says that something must be done in this way, then no Bishop or council can interpretet things a hundred years later in a diffirent way. Pius II’s Bull condemned the idea that a Council and the Magisteirum is of bigger authority than the Pope.

Without meaning to offend anyone (of course, what I’m saying is hardly offensive at all) or going off topic, I think you’re having Modernist or Americanist tendencies. Church doctrine was made so as to fit all times and all nations; it wasn’t made to be changed over the times. Give me one example where the Church believed a certain doctrine and then, all of a sudden decided to not believe it anymore. Without of course mentioning Vatican II, which I do not think was infallible. A friend of mine, to tell the truth, says that Vatican II should never have been made. Now why don’t I think Vatican II was not infallible? Because no Council can change a dogma of the faith, even withe consent of the Pope. No Pope can speak heresies ex cathedra. Now, I’m all for the Pope. I believe he is the Vicar of Christ and that he has absolute power in a sense.

We do not just pray to save souls. What about Priests who absolve us of our sins and preach the doctrines of the faith? What about nuns who take in homeless people and teach them the ways of the faith? What about holy teachers (in Catholic schools of course)?

And you still have not stated why I am saying heresies. Has the Church ever condmened the idea that Mary has limitless power? On the contrary, we have the feast of Mary, Mediatrix of all grace, we call Her Queen of Heaven, Mother of all men, full of grace, etc… we have a whole litany singing Her praises. We have the Rosary which is so holy that is has been endorsed by the Church ever since it was introduced.

As Saint Louis de Montfort said, Mary could not be the Queen of heaven and earth and Mother of all men if God did not give Her the power to give us graces (the graces which He made and gave unto Mary. What, you don’t think Mary actually stole them from God, like how heretics have dreamt?) Also, Mary must have the whole plentitude of the grace of Christ since She was made the Mother of God. Mary actually gave Christ the means to obtain us graces, since Christ became man to suffer for us and, had He felt no pain and suffering, He would not have merited for us the least grace (see Garrigou Lagrange’s Mother of the Saviour: Mary and the plentitude of all grace.). It is fitting for her to be the treasurer of all graces which Christ obtained because it was She who gave Him His humanity.

 

[elvisman]

Vince, papal bulls aren’t subject to the magisterium. If a Pope says that something must be done in this way, then no Bishop or council can interpretet things a hundred years later in a diffirent way. Pius II’s Bull condemned the idea that a Council and the Magisteirum is of bigger authority than the Pope.

Without meaning to offend anyone (of course, what I’m saying is hardly offensive at all) or going off topic, I think you’re having Modernist or Americanist tendencies. Church doctrine was made so as to fit all times and all nations; it wasn’t made to be changed over the times. Give me one example where the Church believed a certain doctrine and then, all of a sudden decided to not believe it anymore. Without of course mentioning Vatican II, which I do not think was infallible. A friend of mine, to tell the truth, says that Vatican II should never have been made. Now why don’t I think Vatican II was not infallible? Because no Council can change a dogma of the faith, even withe consent of the Pope. No Pope can speak heresies ex cathedra. Now, I’m all for the Pope. I believe he is the Vicar of Christ and that he has absolute power in a sense.

We do not just pray to save souls. What about Priests who absolve us of our sins and preach the doctrines of the faith? What about nuns who take in homeless people and teach them the ways of the faith? What about holy teachers (in Catholic schools of course)?

And you still have not stated why I am saying heresies. Has the Church ever condmened the idea that Mary has limitless power? On the contrary, we have the feast of Mary, Mediatrix of all grace, we call Her Queen of Heaven, Mother of all men, full of grace, etc… we have a whole litany singing Her praises. We have the Rosary which is so holy that is has been endorsed by the Church ever since it was introduced.

As Saint Louis de Montfort said, Mary could not be the Queen of heaven and earth and Mother of all men if God did not give Her the power to give us graces (the graces which He made and gave unto Mary. What, you don’t think Mary actually stole them from God, like how heretics have dreamt?) Also, Mary must have the whole plentitude of the grace of Christ since She was made the Mother of God. Mary actually gave Christ the means to obtain us graces, since Christ became man to suffer for us and, had He felt no pain and suffering, He would not have merited for us the least grace (see Garrigou Lagrange’s Mother of the Saviour: Mary and the plentitude of all grace.). It is fitting for her to be the treasurer of all graces which Christ obtained because it was She who gave Him His humanity.

Did you even bother to read what you just wrote?
You are saying that Mary is omnipotent. God ALONE is omnipotent. Mary is the Queen of heaven and earth. She is the Mother of the Church and all those in Christ. SHE IS NOT GOD. Get that straight.

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What you are speaking is idolatry and heresy. We worship GOD and GOD ALONE. We pay Latria to him, which is reserved for him ALONE. We pay Hyperdulia to our Blessed Mother Mary. Where do you get your heretical ideas from?

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The Church does not now, nor has she ever taught that Mary is omnipotent like God

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By the way – which dogmas of the Church were altered or changed at the Second Vatican Council?

 

[Carlan]

You are speaking heresy friend because you ARE raising Mary to the level of God. You are saying that SHE gives us her grace so we can be saved. Mary does NOT have limitless power and the Church does NOT teach this. She is subject to Almighty God and so is St. Paul. NEITHER of them have ever saved one, single soul. ONLY Christ can.

It is Catholics like you, who espouse these heretical beliefs that confuse and dismay non-Catholics into thinking that we are idolators.

And you’re wrong - we don’t save souls. We intercede for one another and petition GOD to save their soul. You are WAY out of line here and I suggest you consult the Catechism.

We branches of the Vine.

Ephesians 4:29 tells us that you and I are to “impart grace” to others by our words. As members of the body of Christ, we are called to “impart” (or mediate) grace in a variety of ways, including ministries of healing, teaching, and prayer.

The key to a correct understanding of 1 Timothy 2:5 is to see that the one mediator stands “between God and men.” Only Jesus Christ can stand for us before God and gain our salvation and all grace. But what he has gained can be distributed from man to man among the members of his body. What he gives to me, I can, by his power, share with you, and vice versa. In fact, we experience this on a daily basis.

Jesus is the source of grace. *As branches abiding in the Vine, we can distribute his grace. Because of his mediation before God on our behalf—because he has gained grace for us and entrusts us with that grace—we are able to impart grace to others. *
In calling Mary the Mediatrix of all graces, the Church does not mean that she is a rival for Jesus’ unique place. Vatican II clarified the Church’s position on 1 Timothy 2:5–6:

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The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ but rather shows its power. For all the saving influences of the Blessed Virgin on men originate not from some inner necessity but from the divine pleasure.
They flow from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rest on his mediation, depend entirely on it, and draw all their power from it.* In no way do they impede the immediate union of the faithful with Christ. Rather, they foster this union. (LG 60)
Christ makes it possible for Mary to mediate grace and desires her to do so because he has planned it that way. **
Peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

We don’t have to go to extremes on the Church teaching of all this,
We can spread our love for our Mother Mary in a gentle quiet way without it.
Radicals are more apt to stir up that which turn people off, I think that is true. Peace, Carlan

 

[philipmarie]

Carlan is right, we shouldn’t be mean faced and sharp to those people who do not believe in Mary’s Mediation, but that doesn’t mean that we should give up our beliefs in Mary and the Catholic faith because some other person doesn’t believe so. Also, we should do our best to bring about the definition of Mary being the Mediatrix of all grace. Don’t believe the garbage that if the Church defines Mary’s Mediation Protestants will go away from the Church. Converts aren’t here to manipulate Church teaching according to their own liking as Luther tried doing; they have to obey the Church and if the Church says that Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace, then they have to not only accept it but they have to learn to love the Blessed Virgin. We can’t ignore Her, no way, we can never ignore such an admirable Lady who is always there praying for us.

When I say that Mary is omnipotent, I’m saying it in a certain sense. God alone (obviously) is omnipotent by His nature. He can create worlds with just a click of His fingers while also knowing absoloutely everything and being totally simple.

Mary now, is omnipotent in the sense that God gave Her the power, not to create worlds, but to give graces to us and to lead us to Him. Her power does not come from Her nature but it comes because God gave it to Her. Also, She is omnipotent because God will always grant what His Mother asks Him to do. In the marraige feast of Cana, had not Mary intervened (and note that the bride and groom didn’t even ask Her; note also that nobody except Her as of that time knew that Christ could perform miracles), the water definitely would not have been changed into wine. This is proven by the words of Christ: “Woman, what is that to me and to thee?”*

Here, Christ showed that had somebody else come and asked Him to grant the same request, He would not have granted it. But, because it was His Mother, he granted it all the same because of His infinite love of Her.

*No, Christ definitely wasn’t being rude to His Mother and if I knew He was, (which is obviously not the case), I would quit the Catholic Church. I wouldn’t be part of a religion made by a man who is rude to His Mother, just as I wouldn’t be part of a religion whose founder was OK with pedophilia. Yes, I’m referring to Islam and all it’s unjust laws.

Obviously, Mary wouldn’t go to Christ and tell Him to grant something sinful. Far be from us the thought that Mary would ever do, let alone wish something that is contrary to Her Son’s antecedant Will. She is totally sinless and Immaculate and Her love of God sustains Her.

 

[elvisman]

We branches of the Vine.

Ephesians 4:29 tells us that you and I are to “impart grace” to others by our words. As members of the body of Christ, we are called to “impart” (or mediate) grace in a variety of ways, including ministries of healing, teaching, and prayer.

The key to a correct understanding of 1 Timothy 2:5 is to see that the one mediator stands “between God and men.” Only Jesus Christ can stand for us before God and gain our salvation and all grace. But what he has gained can be distributed from man to man among the members of his body. What he gives to me, I can, by his power, share with you, and vice versa. In fact, we experience this on a daily basis.

Jesus is the source of grace. *As branches abiding in the Vine, we can distribute his grace. Because of his mediation before God on our behalf—because he has gained grace for us and entrusts us with that grace—we are able to impart grace to others. *
In calling Mary the Mediatrix of all graces, the Church does not mean that she is a rival for Jesus’ unique place. Vatican II clarified the Church’s position on 1 Timothy 2:5–6:

The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ but rather shows its power. For all the saving influences of the Blessed Virgin on men originate not from some inner necessity but from the divine pleasure.
They flow from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rest on his mediation, depend entirely on it, and draw all their power from it. In no way do they impede the immediate union of the faithful with Christ. Rather, they foster this union. (LG 60)
***Christ makes it possible for Mary to mediate grace and desires her to do so because he has planned it that way. ***
Peace, Carlan

Absolutely. **
However, this is not what I was arguing against. I was arguing against the notion that Mary is EQUAL to God, which is what is implied when somebody refers to her as “omnipotent”. I’m well-aware of the Church’s dogmatic positions on Mary. I don’t think that Philipmarie is . . .
**
Mary’s mediation? YES.
Mary’s Omnipotence? Heresy.

 

[elvisman]

Carlan is right, we shouldn’t be mean faced and sharp to those people who do not believe in Mary’s Mediation, but that doesn’t mean that we should give up our beliefs in Mary and the Catholic faith because some other person doesn’t believe so. Also, we should do our best to bring about the definition of Mary being the Mediatrix of all grace. Don’t believe the garbage that if the Church defines Mary’s Mediation Protestants will go away from the Church. Converts aren’t here to manipulate Church teaching according to their own liking as Luther tried doing; they have to obey the Church and if the Church says that Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace, then they have to not only accept it but they have to learn to love the Blessed Virgin. We can’t ignore Her, no way, we can never ignore such an admirable Lady who is always there praying for us.

When I say that Mary is omnipotent, I’m saying it in a certain sense. God alone (obviously) is omnipotent by His nature. He can create worlds with just a click of His fingers while also knowing absoloutely everything and being totally simple.

Mary now, is omnipotent in the sense that God gave Her the power, not to create worlds, but to give graces to us and to lead us to Him. Her power does not come from Her nature but it comes because God gave it to Her. Also, She is omnipotent because God will always grant what His Mother asks Him to do. In the marraige feast of Cana, had not Mary intervened (and note that the bride and groom didn’t even ask Her; note also that nobody except Her as of that time knew that Christ could perform miracles), the water definitely would not have been changed into wine. This is proven by the words of Christ: “Woman, what is that to me and to thee?”*

Here, Christ showed that had somebody else come and asked Him to grant the same request, He would not have granted it. But, because it was His Mother, he granted it all the same because of His infinite love of Her.

*No, Christ definitely wasn’t being rude to His Mother and if I knew He was, (which is obviously not the case), I would quit the Catholic Church. I wouldn’t be part of a religion made by a man who is rude to His Mother, just as I wouldn’t be part of a religion whose founder was OK with pedophilia. Yes, I’m referring to Islam and all it’s unjust laws.

Obviously, Mary wouldn’t go to Christ and tell Him to grant something sinful. Far be from us the thought that Mary would ever do, let alone wish something that is contrary to Her Son’s antecedant Will. She is totally sinless and Immaculate and Her love of God sustains Her.

No - Mary is NOT omnipotent - in ANY sense.
Omnipotence would give her the power to create the heavens and earth out of nothing.
Omnipotence would give her the power to save our souls without the perfect sacrifice of Christ.

**I am no anti-Marianist and have, in fact been one of her biggest defenders on this forum over the last 7 years. That is precisely why I will not stand by and let this heresy go unanswered. It’s not about being “mean” - it’s about spreading the TRUTH, not our own inventions.

Is Mary powerful? YES.
Is she almighty? Absolutely NOT.**

 

[philipmarie]

Elvisman, I do not actually understand what you are saying that Mary isn’t omnipotent in any sense. Obviously Christ can’t deny Her anything and obviously, She can give us grace if She asks God and by Her own will (of course, She tells God to make that grace because Mary can’t make grace).

Don’t you think that God did not give to Mary the power to ‘carry’ His graces? Because, I honestly tell you and I say this with my whole heart that were it not for Mary’s intervention I at least wouldn’t be here posting about Her. No, I never did suffer some serious injury; what I’m saying is that I would have continued in my sense and in my ridicule of the Catholic Church and in the state of damnation which I was in I would definitely never have started praying, buying religous books or all that… or joining CA. In my pride, I could have become a freemason when I grew up so as to ‘increase’ my ‘prestige’ in the world.

Also, when I said omnipotent and I stated this, I said that Mary is omnipotent in a certain sense. Because, if Christ is our Redeemer by destroying the punishments of hell (to whom grace is communicated of course), then Mary is the one who communicates His Divine Blood in souls. Also, if Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace, then it is necessary that She also communicate to the priest and Bishop and the Sacraments the power to confer Sacramental graces*.

*Of course, the Eucharist is the real body and blood of Christ so it confers grace directly from Christ into our souls, but it is Mary who gives the Priest the power and the efficacy to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Nobody can say that Mary’s body and blood are found in the Eucharist too (Ok, there actually IS somebody mad enough to believe this: the Palmarian catholic church under ‘pope’ Gregory XVII and ‘pope’ Peter II).

Have you ever read True Devotion to Mary by Siant Louis de Montfort?

 

[Carlan]

Absolutely.
However, this is not what I was arguing against. I was arguing against the notion that Mary is EQUAL to God, which is what is implied when somebody refers to her as “omnipotent”. I’m well-aware of the Church’s dogmatic positions on Mary. I don’t think that Philipmarie is . . .
**
Mary’s mediation? YES**.
Mary’s Omnipotence? Heresy.

yes, I do agree Omnipotence is not the proper word used as by Philip.
We should be very careful in how we use our words especially when our audience is other than Apostolic Christian. Many just wait for reasons to pull further apart from from us and will grab onto almost any thing to do so, Peace, Carlan

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman, I do not actually understand what you are saying that Mary isn’t omnipotent in any sense. Obviously Christ can’t deny Her anything and obviously, She can give us grace if She asks God and by Her own will (of course, She tells God to make that grace because Mary can’t make grace).

Don’t you think that God did not give to Mary the power to ‘carry’ His graces? Because, I honestly tell you and I say this with my whole heart that were it not for Mary’s intervention I at least wouldn’t be here posting about Her. No, I never did suffer some serious injury; what I’m saying is that I would have continued in my sense and in my ridicule of the Catholic Church and in the state of damnation which I was in I would definitely never have started praying, buying religous books or all that… or joining CA. In my pride, I could have become a freemason when I grew up so as to ‘increase’ my ‘prestige’ in the world.

Also, when I said omnipotent and I stated this, I said that Mary is omnipotent in a certain sense. Because, if Christ is our Redeemer by destroying the punishments of hell (to whom grace is communicated of course), then Mary is the one who communicates His Divine Blood in souls. Also, if Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace, then it is necessary that She also communicate to the priest and Bishop and the Sacraments the power to confer Sacramental graces*.

*Of course, the Eucharist is the real body and blood of Christ so it confers grace directly from Christ into our souls, but it is Mary who gives the Priest the power and the efficacy to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Nobody can say that Mary’s body and blood are found in the Eucharist too (Ok, there actually IS somebody mad enough to believe this: the Palmarian catholic church under ‘pope’ Gregory XVII and ‘pope’ Peter II).

Have you ever read True Devotion to Mary by Siant Louis de Montfort?

You’re telling me that the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ under MARY’S power?? Mary is never even invoked in the Consecration. Where do you get this from?
WHERE does the Catechism state this?

**Another problem is your use of the word, Omnipotence. There is no such thing as being omnipotent *“in a sense” *or "partially omnipotent". You either ARE or AREN’T - and NOBODY is but God.

Finally - it is NOT Mary who gives us God’s grace. That is NOT what is meant by Mediatrix of all Araces. She intercedes to God on our behalf so that we can attain GOD’S grace.

 

[Carlan]

*Of course, the Eucharist is the real body and blood of Christ so it confers grace directly from Christ into our souls, but it is Mary who gives the Priest the power and the efficacy to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Nobody can say that Mary’s body and blood are found in the Eucharist too (Ok, there actually IS somebody mad enough to believe this: the Palmarian catholic church under ‘pope’ Gregory XVII and ‘pope’ Peter II).

Have you ever read True Devotion to Mary by Siant Louis de Montfort?

Philip, I think you are very mistaken here.
God gives the Ordained Priest the power to confect the sacrament of the Body, Blood ,Soul and Divinty of Jesus, the Eucharist. You are wrong to think otherwise.
And who ever taught you that is very, very, wrong. I think you need to have a conversation with your Priest. Peace, Carlan

 

[philipmarie]

Elvisman, I have the feeling you’re treating me like some killer heretic.

However, and I have said this a billion times, Mary doesn’t confer grace to anyone by Her own power. She confers grace by God’s power, by the power which He gave Her.

Whe a Priest absolves us, we are given grace, a grace which is given by God, through Mary through the Priest through us.

There is more to Mediation than intercession. To intercede for someone is to pray to God on behalf od him. To Mediate must mean something more: to unite somebody to somebody else. Now we kow that Mary unites us to Jesus. As Maximilian Kolbe put it: “Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces and sanctity is the perfect work of God’s grace.”

Also, for Mary to confer graces it doesn’t mean that She HAS to be invoked, either explicitly or implicitly. There are many graces which are given to us without praying, such as the gift of prayer and the gift of love. We also have sufficient grace which we don’t pray for when it if given to us (although we resist it). Mary’s Mediation isn’t a thing of preference, it was ordained by God throughout all eternity. If He ever gave grace and mercy in the old testament, it must have been because He considered the Blessed Virgin. If He had mercy on the human race, it must have been because He remembered that He could make the most perfect creature of them all: the Blessed Virgin Mary. If Christ obtained grace, He obtained over and above for the Blessed Virgin.

Also, in the old testament, if God made certain people holy like the Prophets, Patriarchs, Jacob, people, didn’t He produce grace without the sufferings and the merits of Christ? Because in order to do good, you NEED the grace of God and Christ alone could obtain grace.

The answer to this is that God foresaw the merits which Christ would use to obtain this grace so He granted the grace of holiness to certain peoples in advance.

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman, I have the feeling you’re treating me like some killer heretic.

However, and I have said this a billion times, Mary doesn’t confer grace to anyone by Her own power. She confers grace by God’s power, by the power which He gave Her.

Whe a Priest absolves us, we are given grace, a grace which is given by God, through Mary through the Priest through us.

There is more to Mediation than intercession. To intercede for someone is to pray to God on behalf od him. To Mediate must mean something more: to unite somebody to somebody else. Now we kow that Mary unites us to Jesus. As Maximilian Kolbe put it: “Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces and sanctity is the perfect work of God’s grace.”

Also, for Mary to confer graces it doesn’t mean that She HAS to be invoked, either explicitly or implicitly. There are many graces which are given to us without praying, such as the gift of prayer and the gift of love. We also have sufficient grace which we don’t pray for when it if given to us (although we resist it). Mary’s Mediation isn’t a thing of preference, it was ordained by God throughout all eternity. If He ever gave grace and mercy in the old testament, it must have been because He considered the Blessed Virgin. If He had mercy on the human race, it must have been because He remembered that He could make the most perfect creature of them all: the Blessed Virgin Mary. If Christ obtained grace, He obtained over and above for the Blessed Virgin.

Also, in the old testament, if God made certain people holy like the Prophets, Patriarchs, Jacob, people, didn’t He produce grace without the sufferings and the merits of Christ? Because in order to do good, you NEED the grace of God and Christ alone could obtain grace.

The answer to this is that God foresaw the merits which Christ would use to obtain this grace so He granted the grace of holiness to certain peoples in advance.

You have used terms like Omnipotent to describe Mary and that is what is heretical.**

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As for saving grace - whether it was in the OT or NT – it is ALL because of Christ’s sufferings and death. God is eternal and he can - and DID – apply the sacrifice of Christ to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all of the other prophets and patriarchs in the OT.**

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Mary LEADS us to her Son and intercedes on our behalf.

 

[Vince1022]

Vince, please tell me how on earth I bring the Blessed Mother to the level of Jesus?

Thanks for the response…but where do you think I suggested such? Sorry, I’m having trouble following the thread. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Vince1022]

I don’t think Vatican II did any good.

Interesting.

The Catholic Church holds the teachings of ecumenical Councils very highly. There is no higher teaching authority in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church recognizes Vatican II as an ecumenical Council.

Are there other Ecumenical Councils you think did no good?

 

[kepha1]

You’re telling me that the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ under MARY’S power?? Mary is never even invoked in the Consecration. Where do you get this from?
WHERE does the Catechism state this?

**Another problem is your use of the word, Omnipotence. There is no such thing as being omnipotent *“in a sense” ***or “*partially omnipotent”. *You either ARE or AREN’T - and NOBODY is but God.

**Finally - it is NOT **Mary who gives us God’s grace. That is NOT what is meant by Mediatrix of all Araces. She intercedes to God on our behalf so that we can attain GOD’S grace.

“Co” in co-redeemer, co-Mediatrix, etc. is **Collaborator. ** Mary “assisted” in our redemption and she assisted in our mediation with Christ.

This context does not give Mary equal status with Christ, or usurp Christ in anyway. She, rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ.

In a sense we, too, are co-mediators every time we pray for someone. We are offering intercession/mediation for our friend when we pray for them. This does not make us God or equal with God, it only means that we are cooperating with the economy of God when he asked us to be a family and pray for each other.

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God’s will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

The solution to problems like this is not suppression but education. “co” just simply does NOT mean “equal to”.

At this time the theory of co-redeemer is not Church dogma, and is not binding for belief by the faithful. But the concept should not wrinkle our shirts if we understand the nature of her role in the incarnation and the true meaning of “co”.

 

[philipmarie]

Interesting.

The Catholic Church holds the teachings of ecumenical Councils very highly. There is no higher teaching authority in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church recognizes Vatican II as an ecumenical Council.

Are there other Ecumenical Councils you think did no good?

No, to be honest, all Ecumenical Councils, except Vatican II, did not only any good but alot of good.

What the uninfallible Vatican II did was not to fight against the errors and heresies of that blasted time but rather, it embraced them and made many Catholics fall away. Can anybody honestly say that Protestants are our brothers? No, they are not because they are schismatics and apostates. There is no way we’re going to listen to any of them and include their teachings in ours. This was an error condemned by Pope Siant Pius X in His infallible Lamentibili Sane, where He said: “65. Modern Catholicism can be reconciled with true science only if it is transformed into a non-dogmatic Christianity; that is to say, into a broad and liberal Protestantism.”