Mary and Predestination

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“Co” in co-redeemer, co-Mediatrix, etc. is **Collaborator. **Mary “assisted” in our redemption and she assisted in our mediation with Christ.

This context does not give Mary equal status with Christ, or usurp Christ in anyway. She, rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ.

In a sense we, too, are co-mediators every time we pray for someone. We are offering intercession/mediation for our friend when we pray for them. This does not make us God or equal with God, it only means that we are cooperating with the economy of God when he asked us to be a family and pray for each other.

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God’s will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

The solution to problems like this is not suppression but education. “co” just simply does NOT mean “equal to”.

At this time the theory of co-redeemer is not Church dogma, and is not binding for belief by the faithful. But the concept should not wrinkle our shirts if we understand the nature of her role in the incarnation and the true meaning of “co”.
And I don’t have a problem with this.

What I DO have a problems with are people who misrepresent the Catholic faith to others as it pertains to Mary by elevating her to the level of God.
NOBODY is omnipotent except for God alone.
 
No, to be honest, all Ecumenical Councils, except Vatican II, did not only any good but alot of good.
You identify yourself as Catholic, yet deny the Magisterium? The Catholic Church considers Vatican II an ecumenical council along with all others. No higher teaching authority. Why do you differ from the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding ecumenical councils?
What the uninfallible Vatican II did was not to fight against the errors and heresies of that blasted time but rather, it embraced them and made many Catholics fall away.
No ecumenical council is infallible. Certain teachings of ecumenical councils may be infallibly taught.

That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Give any examples of Vatican II embracing errors and heresies? Really? Are you serious? Looking forward to your examples.

Thank you.
 
This was an error condemned by Pope Siant Pius X in His infallible Lamentibili Sane, where He said: “65. Modern Catholicism can be reconciled with true science only if it is transformed into a non-dogmatic Christianity; that is to say, into a broad and liberal Protestantism.”
Where does the Catholic Church (Magisterium) teach that such was taught infallibly? Reference?

I know of no Catholic teaching that claims such.

Thanks.
 
All the Ecumenical Councils of the Church (with the exception of Vatican II) are infallible. The Magisterium is subject to the Pope and the Councils and the teachings of the Councils are not subject to interpretation from the Magisterium.

There is no need of any document saying that Lamentibili Sane is infallible, because it is a document issued by the authority of the Pope ex cathedra, and when the Pope says something ex cathedra, there is no (stupid) argument.
 
All the Ecumenical Councils of the Church (with the exception of Vatican II) are infallible. T.
This is not what the Catholic Church teaches or believes. This seems to be your personal opinion.

Can you clarify? Thank you.
 
There is no need of any document saying that Lamentibili Sane is infallible, because it is a document issued by the authority of the Pope ex cathedra,
I was not aware of this. Where does the Catholic Church teach this? Is it in the Catechism? Thanks for any reference.
 
Here are the references and I’m not trying to go off topic. I’m only providing these references so that people may believe my assertions about Mary.

The Second Council of Constantinople(Denz 212

We confess that (we) hold and declare the faith given from the beginning by the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ to the Holy Apostles, and preached by them in the whole world; which the sacred Fathers both confessed and explained, and handed down to the holy churches, and especially [those Fathers] who assembled in the four sacred Synods, whom we follow and accept through all things and in all things . . . judging as at odds with piety all things, indeed, which are **not in accord **with what has been defined as right faith by the same four holy Councils, we condemn and anathematize them.

Exsurge Domini Papal Bull by Pope Leo X. It was a list of the errors of Martin Luther, among which was condemned:
  1. If the pope with a great part of the Church thought so and so, he would not err; still it is not a sin or heresy to think the contrary, especially in a matter not necessary for salvation, until one alternative is condemned and another approved by a general Council.
Here, Luther admits that Councils are infallible (as does the Pope). However, it is heretical to think that a Council has more authority than a Pope.

Also, the doctrine that Church Councils are always infallible has always been held by the magisterium. Surely, if you care so much about the magisterium Vince, you will accept what it says regarding Councils. As Pope Leo XIII said: "“If the living magisterium could be in any way false — an evident contradiction would follow, for then God would be the author of error.” (Satis Cognitum). ex cathedra.

Pius XI declared in His encyclical *Rapresentanti in terra: *** "“Upon this magisterial office
Christ conferred infallibility, together with the command to teach His doctrine to all.”


Also, if the Church nor the Pope were infallible, we would have nobody to go to to know which doctrines are right or wrong. We wouldn’t even be sure of the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium if it weren’t for the Pope and the Councils to set the pattern which the Magisterium had to follow.
 
Look now, lets go back to the topic. I love the Blessed Virgin Mary alot and I say this with my whole heart, sincerely and truthfully, without any scruple, that without Her I would never had converted and become Catholic.

I’m so nihilistic sometimes. I become so mad and angry that I even feel like murdering people:(. I see so much evil in the world, with dirty muslims, idiotic protestants, raving modernists, filthy degenerate Freemasons and their blasted one world governemnt and their total irregard of human life. I always feel sad and lonely because God seems so harsh sometimes, I fear God’s punishments, I feel sorry for all victims of sexual abuse who had to suffer at the hands of those incredibly degenerated bastards of pedophiles. I feel sory for every single soul who had to be alive during these inglorious times of conciliarism and modernism and raving anti-papal idiots.

Yet for all that I should never lose hope. Forget rubbish like Superman or Batman, we have a real hero who actually does stand up for us and She goes by the name of Mary Immaculate. If you are a sinner, go to Her and She definitely will not reject you but will welcome you with love. Love does not consist in passion or sentimentality. Many couples today are in bad marraiges or are unhappy because they based their false love on passion and kisses and melodrama. Love consists of respect, charity, and affection.

Love can be defined as being a disposition which makes you united with the person you love. If God loved Mary, then this love caused His heart to be united to Her’s. Respect is to show appreciation and liking towards the beloved’s choices and her person. God showed respect to Mary by allowing Her to choose Her choices freely, although He did help Her in Her choices. Charity is a great esteem and appreciation towards the goodness which one finds in the beloved. We love Mary because of the goodness, the virtues, the mercy which She posseses. Finally, affection and united with these, is a selection and seperation of the beloved from others of the same kind. We love our parents more than the parents of others. A mother who is in a playground will look upon her child playing a sif he was the only one who was present at the playground and not on the other children.
 
Look now, lets go back to the topic. I love the Blessed Virgin Mary alot and I say this with my whole heart, sincerely and truthfully, without any scruple, that without Her I would never had converted and become Catholic.

I’m so nihilistic sometimes. I become so mad and angry that I even feel like murdering people:(. I see so much evil in the world, with dirty muslims, idiotic protestants, raving modernists, filthy degenerate Freemasons and their blasted one world governemnt and their total irregard of human life. I always feel sad and lonely because God seems so harsh sometimes, I fear God’s punishments, I feel sorry for all victims of sexual abuse who had to suffer at the hands of those incredibly degenerated bastards of pedophiles. I feel sory for every single soul who had to be alive during these inglorious times of conciliarism and modernism and raving anti-papal idiots.

Yet for all that I should never lose hope. Forget rubbish like Superman or Batman, we have a real hero who actually does stand up for us and She goes by the name of Mary Immaculate. If you are a sinner, go to Her and She definitely will not reject you but will welcome you with love. Love does not consist in passion or sentimentality. Many couples today are in bad marraiges or are unhappy because they based their false love on passion and kisses and melodrama. Love consists of respect, charity, and affection.

Love can be defined as being a disposition which makes you united with the person you love. If God loved Mary, then this love caused His heart to be united to Her’s. Respect is to show appreciation and liking towards the beloved’s choices and her person. God showed respect to Mary by allowing Her to choose Her choices freely, although He did help Her in Her choices. Charity is a great esteem and appreciation towards the goodness which one finds in the beloved. We love Mary because of the goodness, the virtues, the mercy which She posseses. Finally, affection and united with these, is a selection and seperation of the beloved from others of the same kind. We love our parents more than the parents of others. A mother who is in a playground will look upon her child playing a sif he was the only one who was present at the playground and not on the other children.
Who, or what, are you responding to with these two posts? Specifically?

The wrong idea you proposed that all ecumenical councils except Vatican II are infallible?

Or something else?

thanks for the clarification.
 
Vince, you are saying that I have a wrong idea about Ecumenical Councils being infallible. Can you give me Church documents condemning the doctrine of the infallibility of Church Councils?
 
Vince, you are saying that I have a wrong idea about Ecumenical Councils being infallible. Can you give me Church documents condemning the doctrine of the infallibility of Church Councils?
No.

The point is, nowhere does the Church teach that all Church Councils are infallible. I can only prove that by pointing you to Church teaching. Nowhere does the Catholic Church teach that Church Councils are infallible.

No Church Council taught this. No Pope taught this. The Catechism does not teach this.

So…where can you find Catholic support for the idea that all Church Councils are infallible?

Thanks!

By the way, for reference, I am relying on the teachings of Vatican I, Vatican II, the current Canon Law of the Catholic Church, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm
 
OMG, ANTICHRIST!

OK, I’m just kidding you know!😛
So your argument is that because the Church ‘never’ thaught this dogma then it must be false or you don’t have to believe it. Also, it is not enough to listen to the decrees of just two Councils and a non-infallible catechism. Even an edition of the Cathechism of Saint Pius X had an unintentional heresy in it (and this heresy has absoloutely nothing to do with the dogma of Baptism of Desire and blood. Forget the silly Dimonds and the even nuttier Ibrayni. It rather had something to do with the dogma that outside the Church there is no salvation, something which the Pope when He found out ordered to be removed.)

As for proof that the Church thaught that Councils are infallible:

In Scripture, in Acts 15:28, the Apostles in the Council of Jerusalem said: “For it has seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us [Bishops] to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things:”

(From the Catholic Encyclopedia) Pope Leo the Great expressly declares that “who resists the Councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon cannot be numbered among Catholics” (Ep. lxxviii, ad Leonem Augustum). Does an Epistle or a letter written by a Pope sound similiar to an Encyclical? What a coincedence!

Also, in the same Epistle (Encyclical!), Pope Leo the Great says: In the same epistle he says that the decrees of Chalcedon were framed instruente Spiritu Sancto, i.e. under the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

Also, for a Council to be infallible, it must be presided by the Pope and all Ecumenical Councils were presided by a Pope. We have the dogma of Papal Infallibility so if a Pope accepts the decrees of a Council, than that Council must necessarilly be infallible*. Ironicly, Papal Infallibility was not only defined by the Pope but it was also defined by a whole Council (Vatican I). Councils are also always saying for example ‘this Holy Synod decrees’, or ‘This Holy Synod defines’ or ‘This Holy Synod declares’ OR ‘Whosoever doesn’t believe in Mary’s sinlesness, let him be anathema.’ OR, THEY ALSO SAY: ‘who ever will not give philipmarie a thousand dollars every year, let him be anat…’ wait a minute, they never said that! How on earth could I make that mistake…:rolleyes:

Anyway, if the Council anathemizes somebody who does not beleive a doctrine of faith, then Councils necasserily must be infallible. You can’t say that since Councils are not infallible, then it is up to you to decide whether you’re excommunicated or not.

*(and not as Ronald Conte says that only the teachings of the Council are infallible. We speak to our children of the doctrines of the faith yet we are not given the title of infallible. The only people, outside the Pope and Councils, that really are infallible when they speak are God and Mary, since God is God and Mary was always preserved by God from all error)
I have to buy TAN’s Denzinger.:highprayer:
 
So your argument is that because the Church ‘never’ thaught this dogma then it must be false or you don’t have to believe it.
Who or what post are you referring to? For now I’ll assume it’s mine.

So…no. Your statement is not correct.
Also, it is not enough to listen to the decrees of just two Councils and a non-infallible catechism.
Of course not. I never said such. So what?
As for proof that the Church thaught that Councils are infallible:

In Scripture, in Acts 15:28, the Apostles in the Council of Jerusalem said: “For it has seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us [Bishops] to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things:”
Umm…ok…so where is infallibility mentioned or proved in Acts 15?
(From the Catholic Encyclopedia)
Are you referring to the edition from a century ago, or the current (2003) edition?
Also, for a Council to be infallible, it must be presided by the Pope and all Ecumenical Councils were presided by a Pope.
Completely not true. Where does the Catholic Church teach this? How, historically and honestly, can this claim be maintained?

None of the earliest Ecumenical Councils were convened by, attended by, or presided by the Pope (Bishop of Rome).

Please clarify. It would be interesting and useful, I think, to know why you think this.

Thanks.
 
Anyway, if the Council anathemizes somebody who does not beleive a doctrine of faith, then Councils necasserily must be infallible.
What? Again, I am sorry, I have no idea what you mean by this. Where does the Catholic Church teach that a Council “anathematizing” someone means therefore that the Council is infallible?
 
The above posts were refferred particularly to you Vince1022 yet, not meaning to offend or hurt, even if I were to present to you the whole of Denzinger you still will remain sceptic to the Church’s infallibility.

I’ll just say one last thing on this topic, that whenever the Holy Spirit is used to declare something, then there really is infallibility as in that Scripture verse of Acts which I presented.
 
The above posts were refferred particularly to you Vince1022 yet, not meaning to offend or hurt, even if I were to present to you the whole of Denzinger you still will remain sceptic to the Church’s infallibility.

I’ll just say one last thing on this topic, that whenever the Holy Spirit is used to declare something, then there really is infallibility as in that Scripture verse of Acts which I presented.
I am not a sceptic (sic) of the Church’s teaching infallibly.

Your idea of what infallible teaching is seems to differ from what the Catholic Church teaches.
 
Not meaning to offend anybod here or to break the forum rules but what the above poster did was say nothing but mindless drivel, trying to find contradiction after contradiction in the Church’s teaching:banghead:.

Anyway, love doesn’t consist in simply obeying your parents. Likewise love doesn’t consist in simply obeying the laws and commandments of God and the Church. The false religions of the world and atheism and it’s leaders (what, with all those Protestant pastors, false, invalid priesthoods, bloodthirsty dictators and what not) do not and cannot understand love because they are not part of the religion which is built upon love and mercy, and to be merciful you must necessarilly love a person. If you were to help the poor (you must do more than give money to help the poor you know!:p) by giving them food and shelter, you would have a certain love for them in that you are concerned for their welfare. Likewise, if God and Mary convert a sinner t is because they love him and want to save him.
 
It’s so frustrating to see people (protestants and catholics alike:mad:) who accuse us clients of Mary of being exagerated in our devotion towards Her and that we should consecrate on Christ instead. They say this though not merely because they have any concern for Christ (because their concern isn’t done out of charity) but because they cannot see bear to see others love Her more than they do. Come on people, She is the Blessed Virgin you can never be afraid of giving Her too much honor and praise.

I need advice though. I feel that I am not so personal with Mary as I should be. I feel that I have become lukewarm with all this time on the internet. I don’t play games, I just uselessly browse the web for stupid music, for useless knowledge and spend time on these forums, but deep in all our hearts, we know that nothing in the world can satisfy us. Only love can satisfy us and the fact that we have a mother in heaven who is always looking upon us with Her arms wide open ready to recieve Her most wayward children and bring them on the right track.

Don’t say that you rely on the mercy of God, because even the greatest, most predestinate Saints had to rely on Mary to reach heaven. We do not know when God will decide to not give us a certain grace or that He loves us alot, while with Mary, we are assured by all the declarations of the Church, the miracles and apparitions that happened because of Her that not only will She never abandon us but will always give us the graces and help us to reach heaven.

I do not care for what useless drivel any Protestant or false catholic may say regarding my devotion to Mary. I’ll try to be devoted to Her and make others devoted to Her, not so as to defy people but for love of Her. I know that She will be totally grateful because events such as these aren’t predetermined by God.
 
Not meaning to offend but, can you actually show proof that the Church does not teach this? For here is the proof:

We have Saint Thomas Aquinas teachings on predestination in his summa, and his philosophy was claimed by the Church as it’s own, according to the Popes especially Leo XIII.
Not quite. The Church has claimed much of St Thomas’ philosophy but not predestination.
It is true that the Church lets people think whether God permits sinners to sin either because He wills to permit them to sin or that, forseeing their sins, he let them go into their perverse ways. The latter school of thought is called the Molinist view of predestination, which contradicts neverthless alot of the tradition of the Church regarding predestination. Now, the documents:
*But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. * (Council of Trent, Session VI, chapter 3).
What did the council of Trent mean by those to whom the merit of His passion is communicated?
  • If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.* Canon XV of Session VI of the same Council).
This does not support predestination or its Thomistic understanding.
However, it also defines:
*If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema. * (Canon XVII).
How do you reconcile this Canon VI, Chapter 3?
*“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.” * (Eph 1:4)
Who is the us, some or all?
Christ said: “Many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matt 20:16) In Other words, Christ said that many are given grace but few are chosen to be totally predestinate.
You are misusing this verse. This has nothing to do with predestination as we know it. I think it is not so much Predestination that is the problem but the thinking of some that this necessarily includes Reprobation as well.
  • And the Lord said to Moses: Go in to Pharao; for I* have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants: that I may work these my signs in him. (Exod 10:1) When God hardened Pharoah’s heart, we don’t mean that He treated Pharoe like a puppet and forced him to harden his heart: no, we mean that God, by His just punishment did not give Pharoe the graces to repent.
But this does not mean that God has predestined Pharaoh to hell. Nothing in the text suggests that.
  • And Sehon the king of Hesebon would not let us pass: because the Lord thy God had hardened his spirit, and fixed his heart, that he might be delivered into thy
    hands, as now thou seest.* (Deut 2:30).
And this one does not say either that Sehon has been predestined to hell.

All the Biblical support that people give with regards reprobation are all to do with temporal punishment rather than eternal. But when we talk of Reprobation we mean eternal punishment.
 
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