Mary and Saint worship

[mikeledes]

As Catholics, we pray to (or “through”), kneel to, and praise Mary and the saints. Protestants claim that prayer, praise, and kneeling combined constitute worship, and hence Catholics worship Mary and the saints. If veneration and worship externally look the same, what is the fundamental difference between the two. Is there a difference or are we just splitting hairs?

God Bless and Thanks

 

[NotWorthy]

When was the last time you offered up a Sacrifice to Mary or the Saints?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

As Catholics, we pray to (or “through”), kneel to, and praise Mary and the saints. Protestants claim that prayer, praise, and kneeling combined constitute worship, and hence Catholics worship Mary and the saints. If veneration and worship externally look the same, what is the fundamental difference between the two. Is there a difference or are we just splitting hairs?

God Bless and Thanks

Well, I was taught we pray with the saints, not to them. Anyways, no, we are not splitting hairs. At Mass, we worship God and only God. We look to Him to save us, no one else, though we may ask saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray on our behalf. If asking a saint to pray for you is worship, then asking your family and friends to pray for you is worship. If keeping images of the saints is worship, then those fancy family pictures from the photographer are indeed worship. The same with our monuments to dead leaders, and the Statue of Liberty must be the American way of worshiping liberty and freedom, rather than venerating it.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

When was the last time you offered up a Sacrifice to Mary or the Saints?

Exactly.

 

[corvidae]

If self defense and murder look externally the same, what is the fundamental difference?

Just because something looks the same does not mean it is the same.

 

[Sandtigress]

The Mass is the ultimate form of worship that we offer up to God. You’ll note we have nothing even close to the Mass for Mary and the saints, much as we love them. Veneration and worship for a Catholic are two entirely and totally different levels. In a previous thread, a poster compared them to the difference between a glass of water and the ocean, while others said that the difference might be better explained by a glass of water and the sun. They are so different in type and magnitude that its not even really fair to compare the two.

Unfortunately, our Protestant brothers and sisters don’t really have anything comparative to the level of our Mass, and as such they do not understand the distinction between veneration or praise, and true worship. They liken the Mass to a service, when in reality they on two totally different levels.

 

[mikeledes]

Yesterday, I saw a priest during EWTN Sunday mass incense a statue of the Virgin Mary. That was a bit unnerving. What was that about.

 

[Brendan]

If one looks up the verb ‘to pray’ in Websters, they will see the actual meaning of the word

To entreat, To implore, to Request. The root is the Latin Precari - to ask.

We can also see this usage in Hamlet

Act I, Scene II

QUEEN GERTRUDE Let not thy mother lose her prayers, Hamlet:
I pray thee, stay with us; go not to Wittenberg.

HAMLET I shall in all my best obey you, madam.

Gertrude was clearly praying TO Hamlet. She was asking him to remain home.

Can any Protestant make the claim that Queen Gertrude was somehow worshipping Hamlet?

In the same way, we request (pray) to the saints so that they might request (pray) Grace from God on our behalf.

 

[corvidae]

What would be wrong with that? I mean does incense constitute worship now. So we worship the altar, and we worship the gospel, and what about when the priest is incensed, we worship him, or when the congregation is incensed, are we worshiping eachother?

I would say incense is used to show that something or someone is holy and sacred, as we believe our Lady is. I believe this is how the Church see it as well.

A lone Raven

 

[Brendan]

Yesterday, I saw a priest during EWTN Sunday mass incense a statue of the Virgin Mary. That was a bit unnerving. What was that about.

The priest was blessing the statue.

Incense is a sacramental. It carries a blessing in exactly the same way as Holy Water.

Would it have disturbed you to see the priest sprinkle Holy Water on the statue?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

What would be wrong with that? I mean does incense constitute worship now. So we worship the altar, and we worship the gospel, and what about when the priest is incensed, we worship him, or when the congregation is incensed, are we worshiping eachother?

I would say incense is used to show that something or someone is holy and sacred, as we believe our Lady is. I believe this is how the Church see it as well.

A lone Raven

That is also my understanding. Incense is not used for worship, so this is a non-issue. Blessings, marking holy stuff, etc, is what incense is used for.

 

[Fidelis]

Yesterday, I saw a priest during EWTN Sunday mass incense a statue of the Virgin Mary. That was a bit unnerving. What was that about.

You are easily un-nerved. Priests, during the course of a liturgy may incense, the altar, the book of the Gospels, the readers, even the congregation. If to incense something means to worship it, Catholics would basically worship everything – including each other.

Among other things, incense is simply a symbol of our prayers rising to God.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

When was the last time you offered up a Sacrifice to Mary or the Saints?

:yup:

I just posted something relevant on another thread. I want to re-post here because I think it applies.

Another aspect of this thread that hasn’t been brought up yet is that the posts of BA and StHilarious demonstrate the profound difference in what protestants call ‘worship’ and Catholics call worship. Since protestants do not offer up a pure offering to God (the Eucharist) they substitute with “praying” to God–along with scripture reading, music, sermon, etc. When a protestant sees that we “pray” to Mary or another saint, they immediately, and wrongly, assume that it is worship. It is not worship, not even close. But since protestant theology is miles from Catholic theology in this area it is hard to explain it.

I’m not saying that Catholic worship to God doesn’t include personal prayer (who wants to bet that my words will be twisted here?) but the Mass is not about personal prayer. It is about the community of God offering to God a pure offering (Mal 1:11) in spirit and truth (Jn 4:23).

This is not said to put down individual prayer. My prayer life is very important in my relationship with God. But I worship God by participating in the Mass. That is not the same as asking someone in heaven to pray for me. Not even close.

In answer to the OP’s question there is a difference between worship and veneration. It is not just splitting hairs. For centuries and probably to the present day, people bow to other people–to royalty for example. It is a sign of respect not worship. But there are different levels of love, respect, and honor. Our love and honor for God is of the highest degree. No one, not Mary or a saint is elevated above God. But to love Mary and the Saints to a high degree is following Jesus command to love our neighbor as He has loved us. Catholics simply consider the saints part of our community, our neighbors.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

When was the last time you offered up a Sacrifice to Mary or the Saints?

:yup:

I just posted something relevant on another thread. I want to re-post here because I think it applies.

Another aspect of this thread that hasn’t been brought up yet is that the posts of BA and StHilarious demonstrate the profound difference in what protestants call ‘worship’ and Catholics call worship. Since protestants do not offer up a pure offering to God (the Eucharist) they substitute with “praying” to God–along with scripture reading, music, sermon, etc. When a protestant sees that we “pray” to Mary or another saint, they immediately, and wrongly, assume that it is worship. It is not worship, not even close. But since protestant theology is miles from Catholic theology in this area it is hard to explain it.

I’m not saying that Catholic worship to God doesn’t include personal prayer (who wants to bet that my words will be twisted here?) but the Mass is not about personal prayer. It is about the community of God offering to God a pure offering (Mal 1:11) in spirit and truth (Jn 4:23).

This is not said to put down individual prayer. My prayer life is very important in my relationship with God. But I worship God by participating in the Mass. That is not the same as asking someone in heaven to pray for me. Not even close.

In answer to the OP’s question there is a difference between worship and veneration. It is not just splitting hairs. For centuries and probably to the present day, people bow to other people–to royalty for example. It is a sign of respect not worship. But there are different levels of love, respect, and honor. Our love and honor for God is of the highest degree. No one, not Mary or a saint is elevated above God. But to love Mary and the Saints to a high degree is following Jesus command to love our neighbor as He has loved us. Catholics simply consider the saints part of our community, our neighbors.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

When was the last time you offered up a Sacrifice to Mary or the Saints?

:yup:

I just posted something relevant on another thread. I want to re-post here because I think it applies.

Another aspect of this thread that hasn’t been brought up yet is that the posts of BA and StHilarious demonstrate the profound difference in what protestants call ‘worship’ and Catholics call worship. Since protestants do not offer up a pure offering to God (the Eucharist) they substitute with “praying” to God–along with scripture reading, music, sermon, etc. When a protestant sees that we “pray” to Mary or another saint, they immediately, and wrongly, assume that it is worship. It is not worship, not even close. But since protestant theology is miles from Catholic theology in this area it is hard to explain it.

I’m not saying that Catholic worship to God doesn’t include personal prayer (who wants to bet that my words will be twisted here?) but the Mass is not about personal prayer. It is about the community of God offering to God a pure offering (Mal 1:11) in spirit and truth (Jn 4:23).

This is not said to put down individual prayer. My prayer life is very important in my relationship with God. But I worship God by participating in the Mass. That is not the same as asking someone in heaven to pray for me. Not even close.

In answer to the OP’s question there is a difference between worship and veneration. It is not just splitting hairs. For centuries and probably to the present day, people bow to other people–to royalty for example. It is a sign of respect not worship. But there are different levels of love, respect, and honor. Our love and honor for God is of the highest degree. No one, not Mary or a saint is elevated above God. But to love Mary and the Saints to a high degree is following Jesus command to love our neighbor as He has loved us. Catholics simply consider the saints part of our community, our neighbors.

 

[mikeledes]

When the John worshipped the angel in Revelation, he did not offer sacrifice or incense or prayer. He simply prostrated himself before him. How can we tell the difference between veneration and worship if both involve kneeling?

God Bless and Thnaks

 

[NotWorthy]

When the John worshipped the angel in Revelation, he did not offer sacrifice or incense or prayer. He simply prostrated himself before him. How can we tell the difference between veneration and worship if both involve kneeling?

God Bless and Thnaks

What are you praying for? For example, are you asking Mary to forgive your sins? Are you asking her to heal your pains and afflictions? Are you thanking her all the gifts she’s given you. That sounds like worshipful prayer.

But if you ask Mary to pray that God will forgive your sins, or that God will send his healing grace, or thanking her for her petitions to God on your behalf, it sounds like proper veneration in my book!!!

 

[rr1213]

If one looks up the verb ‘to pray’ in Websters, they will see the actual meaning of the word

To entreat, To implore, to Request. The root is the Latin Precari - to ask.

We can also see this usage in Hamlet

Act I, Scene II

Gertrude was clearly praying TO Hamlet. She was asking him to remain home.

Can any Protestant make the claim that Queen Gertrude was somehow worshipping Hamlet?

In the same way, we request (pray) to the saints so that they might request (pray) Grace from God on our behalf.

If the meaning of the English word “pray” has changed that much over time, then maybe the Catholic Church should employ a different term so that the concept it is trying to communicate does not become confused by the meaning ascribed to the word today.

 

[NotWorthy]

If the meaning of the English word “pray” has changed that much over time, then maybe the Catholic Church should employ a different term so that the concept it is trying to communicate does not become confused by the meaning ascribed to the word today.

Boy, that would open up a can of worms. Let’s say we change the word “pray” in regards to saints to “petition”. Then 50 years from now, whenever someone is looking at “old Catholic” literature, they would come to the conclusion, "Hey, you Catholics used to pray to saints!!! What’s up with that!!!

 

[rr1213]

Boy, that would open up a can of worms. Let’s say we change the word “pray” in regards to saints to “petition”. Then 50 years from now, whenever someone is looking at “old Catholic” literature, they would come to the conclusion, "Hey, you Catholics used to pray to saints!!! What’s up with that!!!

Maybe, then again if the intent is to accurately convey the Church’s teachings, adjustments may need to be made. The meaning of words change…that’s why over time we need new biblical translations.