Mary and Saint worship

[MariaG]

Geez people. You’d think I was speaking to fundamentalists wanting to hold on to the archaic “thees” and “thous” of the King James Bible, not Catholic apologists. Language changes folks…it’s really not a Protestant conspiracy. To communicate effectively you need to use language that is understood by your audience. You still may have disagreements even if you do that (reference post above by Fidelis) but at least you’ll know that you are talking about the same thing. It’s a wonder that you guys are holding the mass in English rather than Latin…oh, no, I’ve probably opened up another can of worms knowing the traditionalist bent of some CA posters.

But seriously, we do communicate effectively. We explain our beliefs. As Fidelis already pointed out, when questions arise we answer them. IF the matter were only a communcation problem, people would then say, “oh, I see, it is just a language shift, you don’t worship Mary.” But many don’t. They continue to insist that the Catholic Church worships Mary because we pray to her.

I even had one person say that the Catholic Church was so strong that “their” definition was included in the dictionary in order to further decieve people and spread their lies.

To do what you say, we need to go back and change many definitions. Including words as basic as faith. We are not saved by faith alone because the definition of faith in the Catholic Church (and reflected in James) is an intellectual assent. It ignores hope and charity aspect that is included in the Protestant definition of faith, but not in the Catholic definition.

Then when Catholics change the definitions, new Catholics will be raised with them, some never realizing that there was a new definition. Read old writings that use the word faith as an intellectual assent alone and become confused or worse, completely misled.

Clearing up disagreements does not mean we need to, or even should CHANGE our definitions in order to be better understood. Changing our defintions would present more problems than it would cure.

We explain things but it is short sighted to expect us to redeine our words for Protestants to better understand us and then open the problem of Catholics no longer being able to effectively communicate among ourselves (and the Protestants who won’t listen now will STILL believe we worship Mary or at least we used to, see how they changed the defiintion of pray? )

I do realize you do not mean this in a poor way, but I truly do not think that you have really thought this issue through completely. But I do believe that you have a very accurate point. I find the Catholics who choose to step into the apologetic arena and REFUSE to change the way they speak in order to make sure they are understood to be arrogant to the upmost. It is in speech to Protestants that we need to change.

I never say pray to Mary when speaking to Protestants. But I will say it to fellow Catholics. Actually, it is usually St. Anthony (patron of lost things) I am recommending them to pray to (ask to pray for us), but I think you get the idea.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[rr1213]

But seriously, we do communicate effectively. We explain our beliefs. As Fidelis already pointed out, when questions arise we answer them. IF the matter were only a communcation problem, people would then say, “oh, I see, it is just a language shift, you don’t worship Mary.” But many don’t. They continue to insist that the Catholic Church worships Mary because we pray to her.

I even had one person say that the Catholic Church was so strong that “their” definition was included in the dictionary in order to further decieve people and spread their lies.

To do what you say, we need to go back and change many definitions. Including words as basic as faith. We are not saved by faith alone because the definition of faith in the Catholic Church (and reflected in James) is an intellectual assent. It ignores hope and charity aspect that is included in the Protestant definition of faith, but not in the Catholic definition.

Then when Catholics change the definitions, new Catholics will be raised with them, some never realizing that there was a new definition. Read old writings that use the word faith as an intellectual assent alone and become confused or worse, completely misled.

Clearing up disagreements does not mean we need to, or even should CHANGE our definitions in order to be better understood. Changing our defintions would present more problems than it would cure.

We explain things but it is short sighted to expect us to redeine our words for Protestants to better understand us and then open the problem of Catholics no longer being able to effectively communicate among ourselves (and the Protestants who won’t listen now will STILL believe we worship Mary or at least we used to, see how they changed the defiintion of pray? )

I do realize you do not mean this in a poor way, but I truly do not think that you have really thought this issue through completely. But I do believe that you have a very accurate point. I find the Catholics who choose to step into the apologetic arena and REFUSE to change the way they speak in order to make sure they are understood to be arrogant to the upmost. It is in speech to Protestants that we need to change.

I never say pray to Mary when speaking to Protestants. But I will say it to fellow Catholics. Actually, it is usually St. Anthony (patron of lost things) I am recommending them to pray to (ask to pray for us), but I think you get the idea.

God Bless,
Maria

Thanks for the response. I understand what you’re saying.

 

[dattaswami]

Worship always involves a sacrifice. It always has, and it always will. The sacrifice of the mass is never offered to anyone but God. I know someone else posted this, but I wanted to reinforce this point.

Worship is always and only offered to God. I might sit alone in my office and write a love letter, and externally, a person would not be able to tell whether I was actually writing that love letter to my wife. He might surmise (if he felt particularly uncharitable) that I was writing the love letter to an illicit mistress, because externally, those two acts would look exactly the same. Only I (and my wife, when she receives it ) would know beyond a shadow of a doubt who the proper recipient of that love letter is.

Protestants who claim that Catholics worship Mary are even more uncharitable than the man watching me write my wife a love letter, because in this case, the love letter (the mass) is addressed to God and God alone. Anyone watching us write that love letter and thinking it’s written to someone other than God not only starts out uncharitably (by even entertaining the possibility that the Catholic Church writes love letters to someone other than her Husband) but is also especially untrustworthy, since the letter is explicitly addressed to God and to God alone, and we Catholics deny that it goes anywhere else.

Jeremy

**
Real Worship of Lord**

Mostly people love Lord for their desires to be fulfilled. If something goes wrong or if things are out of control then we rush to lord and start prayers etc. This devotion is like a prostitute loving her customer. If one really loves Lord without any desire, then only Lord will be pleased.

When a beggar approaches us, we generally offer him whatever is least useful to us. But, when a relative comes to our house, we provide him with good food, facilities and even ask him to stay for some more time. Why is the difference in our approach? Beggar comes to us for what we give. He is not having any love to us. Whereas a relative has not come for our food and facilities, he has come to see us. This shows the love.

So, our approach to Lord should be with love and affection as relative but not like beggar, who approaches us only for satisfying the desires. We should not worship lord only to satisfy our desire. Prayers by words, meditation by mind and intelligence in spiritual discussions form a preliminary level of worship.

The devotee should search for a Satguru or Lord in human form (like Jesus, Krishna and Prophet Mohammed) to learn the divine knowledge. After gaining the divine knowledge from the Lord in human form, at His directive only he should participate in His service in the mission.

His mission is to uplift the human beings by preaching the divine knowledge. Service consists of donating money and physically participating in His mission of divine knowledge propagation. Such real service is the only proof of our real love towards Lord.

We are serving our family by spending hard earned money for them and also serving physically. Where as when we come to Lord, we express our love by prayers, meditation and spiritual discussions only, which are given freely by Lord to everybody.

Hence God is not even comparable to family members but in prayers we project Him on top.​

 

[mikeledes]

It’s funny how a question on Mary can even inspire a swami to answer! I still have not gotten a response regarding prayer in the Bible and the early Church fathers. Is the word for prayer in the Bible the equivalent of an act of worship. Is the hebrew or Greek word the same as petition or is it something that specifically and exclusively refers to God.

Thanks and God Bless

 

[mlchance]

When the John worshipped the angel in Revelation, he did not offer sacrifice or incense or prayer. He simply prostrated himself before him.

No, he didn’t. He prostrated himself with the intention of worshipping the angel.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Fidelis]

Is the word for prayer in the Bible the equivalent of an act of worship. Is the hebrew or Greek word the same as petition or is it something that specifically and exclusively refers to God.

The word “pray” is commonly used in the Bible as a word of earnest entreaty, and this is the sense in which Catholics use it when petitioning the saints (or any other Christian). Whatever the Greek or Hebrew word behind it, the key is always the CONTEXT in which it is being used. The words themselves are often interchangable. There are several words in the Greek alone used for “pray” or “prayer”:

*deesis
deomai
enteuxis
erotao
euche
euchomai
parakaleo
proseuche
proseuche
proseuchomai
proseuchomai
proseuchomai *

For example, in the NT the Greek word Devomai can be used either as an entreaty to man or to God:

Ac 8:24 Then answered Simon, and said, **Pray ye to the Lord **for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
Ac 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

More examples:

Ge 12:13 -
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

Ge 13:8 -
And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.

Ge 13:9 -
Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left.

Ge 16:2 -
And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

Ex 4:18 -
And Moses went and returned to Jethro his father in law, and said unto him, Let me go, I pray thee, and return unto my brethren which are in Egypt, and see whether they be yet alive. And Jethro said to Moses, Go in peace.

Ex 5:3 -
And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days’ journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.

Ex 10:17 -
Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from me this death only.

1Sa 9:18 -
Then Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, where the seer’s house is.

1Sa 10:15 -
And Saul’s uncle said, Tell me, I pray thee, what Samuel said unto you.

Mic 3:1 -
And I said, Hear, I pray you, O heads of Jacob, and ye princes of the house of Israel; Is it not for you to know judgment?

Mic 3:9 -
Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity.

Hag 2:15 -
And now, I pray you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD:

Lu 14:18 -
And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: **I pray thee **have me excused.

Ac 8:34 -
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

2Co 5:20 -
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

I could quote about 200 more, but will that do?

 

[mikeledes]

Fidelis, that was very helpful. Thank You.

 

[Brendan]

If the meaning of the English word “pray” has changed that much over time, then maybe the Catholic Church should employ a different term so that the concept it is trying to communicate does not become confused by the meaning ascribed to the word today.

Are you saying that the Church should change it’s theology based on the definition of an English word??

What other theology should change when English does??

 

[Brendan]

Geez people. You’d think I was speaking to fundamentalists wanting to hold on to the archaic “thees” and “thous” of the King James Bible, not Catholic apologists. Language changes folks…it’s really not a Protestant conspiracy.

Yep, and Catholics use the verb ‘to pray’ in it’s modern, primary sense.
Here is Merriam-Webster on the subject.

m-w.com/dictionary/pray

Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: 'prA
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAga question, frAgEn to ask, Sanskrit prcchati he asks
transitive verb
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE – often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Note how the verb only relates in a Divine sense in the secondary intransitive sense.

And this is the modern defintion of the word. We are not using archaic terms, but the primary modern sense of the word.

If there are people in the world who do not understand the meaning of a word, that does not mean that the word is to be abandoned, does it?

Rather it means that they are lacking in a certain education and instruction is necessary.

The very fact that ignorance about the definition of a word exists does not invalidate the definition itself.

 

[rr1213]

Are you saying that the Church should change it’s theology based on the definition of an English word??

What other theology should change when English does??

No. None of my posts say that. What I am saying is that language changes. Does anyone really dispute that? Do you still refer to your left hand as your “sinister” hand? Of course not. You use the currently used word which is “left” So, if you want people to understand you, use the language that the people understand…not terminology as it existed hundreds of years ago. If the meaning of a word changes, then use whatever new word conveys the meaning that you intend. Is Catholic dogma and doctrine derived from English translations? I don’t think so. You do go back to the Greek and Hebrew, right? Christ spoke in Aramaic, yet if you go about in the USA and preach the Gospel as commanded by the Great Commission…using Aramaic…how many people are going to understand you?

This is not a challenge to Catholic theology…I’ll do that in other threads…this is simply a common sense observation that if you are not speaking the same language as those who you wish to reach you will not be very successful in conveying your message.

 

[rr1213]

Yep, and Catholics use the verb ‘to pray’ in it’s modern, primary sense.
Here is Merriam-Webster on the subject.

m-w.com/dictionary/pray

Note how the verb only relates in a Divine sense in the secondary intransitive sense.

And this is the modern defintion of the word. We are not using archaic terms, but the primary modern sense of the word.

If there are people in the world who do not understand the meaning of a word, that does not mean that the word is to be abandoned, does it?

Rather it means that they are lacking in a certain education and instruction is necessary.

The very fact that ignorance about the definition of a word exists does not invalidate the definition itself.

That’s a nice pristine dictionary definition. Now, here’s a challenge for you, go into the street and stop 10 people randomly. Ask them what the word “pray” means. My guess is that 10 out of 10 will say something like “talking to God” or “asking God for something”.

Catholics complain all the time (at least in this forum) that people think that they worship Mary. Why do people think that? I’d hazard a three-fold response: (1) a decent number of Catholics misunderstand their own Church’s teachings and, contrary to those teachings, do in fact worship Mary, (2) most Protestants do not understand the Catholic Church’s teachings about the veneration of Mary, (3) Catholics use a word…“prayer” … in an archaic fashion that exacerbates the misconception.

I just don’t understand the stubborn resistance to non-doctrinal changes (i.e., use current language as opposed to Shakespearean English) in order to convey your message. Ensure that the current language you employ accurately conveys the theological point at issue…yes definitely…but don’t stick with language that misconveys your message.

 

[NotWorthy]

That’s a nice pristine dictionary definition. Now, here’s a challenge for you, go into the street and stop 10 people randomly. Ask them what the word “pray” means. My guess is that 10 out of 10 will say something like “talking to God” or “asking God for something”.

Catholics complain all the time (at least in this forum) that people think that they worship Mary. Why do people think that? I’d hazard a three-fold response: (1) a decent number of Catholics misunderstand their own Church’s teachings and, contrary to those teachings, do in fact worship Mary, (2) most Protestants do not understand the Catholic Church’s teachings about the veneration of Mary, (3) Catholics use a word…“prayer” … in an archaic fashion that exacerbates the misconception.

I just don’t understand the stubborn resistance to non-doctrinal changes (i.e., use current language as opposed to Shakespearean English) in order to convey your message. Ensure that the current language you employ accurately conveys the theological point at issue…yes definitely…but don’t stick with language that misconveys your message.

Even though this horse might be dead, how many of those 10 people that you ask in the street have also been asked, “Why do those Catholics pray to Mary, don’t they know that we should only worship Jesus”?

Hmmmmm…

 

[rr1213]

Even though this horse might be dead, how many of those 10 people that you ask in the street have also been asked, “Why do those Catholics pray to Mary, don’t they know that we should only worship Jesus”?

Hmmmmm…

I suppose it depends on how you ask the question. Still, seriously, ask the question in a completely neutral manner. Pick somebody randomly, say “I’m sorry to bother you, but do you have a moment? I’m taking a poll to determine people’s understanding of various words. Could you please tell me what you understand the word “pray” [or “prayer”] to mean?”

I may be wrong, but I suspect that most people will say something like “talking to God” or “asking God for something”. If you then ask the person what their religious affiliation is, I’d bet that the answers you receive from Catholics do not differ much from the general population at large. Who knows? I haven’t done this myself, but common sense tells me that these would be the likely responses.

I think Catholic posters here think that I am suggesting that they change their theology. I’m not making that argument here. What I am saying is that you are being tied in knots using a word that doesn’t mean what it used to mean. No big deal. Not a problem. Choose whatever word or phrase that conveys the concept in language understood by people today. Elizabethan English is not the language of God, although as an ex-Episcopalian I do know people that believe that is the case.

 

[NotWorthy]

I suppose it depends on how you ask the question. Still, seriously, ask the question in a completely neutral manner. Pick somebody randomly, say “I’m sorry to bother you, but do you have a moment? I’m taking a poll to determine people’s understanding of various words. Could you please tell me what you understand the word “pray” [or “prayer”] to mean?”

I may be wrong, but I suspect that most people will say something like “talking to God” or “asking God for something”. If you then ask the person what their religious affiliation is, I’d bet that the answers you receive from Catholics do not differ much from the general population at large. Who knows? I haven’t done this myself, but common sense tells me that these would be the likely responses.

I think Catholic posters here think that I am suggesting that they change their theology. I’m not making that argument here. What I am saying is that you are being tied in knots using a word that doesn’t mean what it used to mean. No big deal. Not a problem. Choose whatever word or phrase that conveys the concept in language understood by people today. Elizabethan English is not the language of God, although as an ex-Episcopalian I do know people that believe that is the case.

My point for phrasing the question like I did was that this type of questioning will lead someone to falsely believe that prayer = worship. “Did you know those Catholics pray to Mary? Don’t they know that we should only worship God”.

Down here in Southeast Texas that is a common teaching brought up in Sunday School at a vast majority of Christian Churches.

My point is, that this type of “teaching” has led most people in my area to believe this (prayer = worship). It didn’t just happen as a part of “the times they are a changin’.” It is all part of other faiths teaching their children what is wrong with the Catholic Faith.

I’m not in anyway bringing up a conspiracy theory. I think this has happened because the tactic works, and it works well. If something ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

 

[MariaG]

No. None of my posts say that. What I am saying is that language changes. Does anyone really dispute that? Do you still refer to your left hand as your “sinister” hand? Of course not. You use the currently used word which is “left” So, if you want people to understand you, use the language that the people understand…not terminology as it existed hundreds of years ago. If the meaning of a word changes, then use whatever new word conveys the meaning that you intend. Is Catholic dogma and doctrine derived from English translations? I don’t think so. You do go back to the Greek and Hebrew, right? Christ spoke in Aramaic, yet if you go about in the USA and preach the Gospel as commanded by the Great Commission…using Aramaic…how many people are going to understand you?

This is not a challenge to Catholic theology…I’ll do that in other threads…this is simply a common sense observation that if you are not speaking the same language as those who you wish to reach you will not be very successful in conveying your message.

I suppose it depends on how you ask the question. Still, seriously, ask the question in a completely neutral manner. Pick somebody randomly, say “I’m sorry to bother you, but do you have a moment? I’m taking a poll to determine people’s understanding of various words. Could you please tell me what you understand the word “pray” [or “prayer”] to mean?”

I may be wrong, but I suspect that most people will say something like “talking to God” or “asking God for something”. If you then ask the person what their religious affiliation is, I’d bet that the answers you receive from Catholics do not differ much from the general population at large. Who knows? I haven’t done this myself, but common sense tells me that these would be the likely responses.

I think Catholic posters here think that I am suggesting that they change their theology. I’m not making that argument here. What I am saying is that you are being tied in knots using a word that doesn’t mean what it used to mean. No big deal. Not a problem. Choose whatever word or phrase that conveys the concept in language understood by people today. Elizabethan English is not the language of God, although as an ex-Episcopalian I do know people that believe that is the case.

I do agree with you. I DO believe Catholics when speaking to non-Catholics should use “pray” in the manner of only speaking to God.

But we should also, if the matter comes up, explain how in Catholic terminology, Pray uses the older usage, (even if it still is in the modern dictionary), and the “common” understanding of the word pray has been narrowed over the years.

But I do not believe that Catholics should change our language usage among other Catholics. There is just too much written material over the years that demands that Catholics understand that the word pray doesn’t equal worship of God.

As for you poll, you may be correct. I know that if in a hurry, I may answer in the manner you suggest but I also know that if not in a hurry, I would qualify my answer, but only because of my exposure to this board.

I also know that many Catholics who would answer in the manner you suggest without qualifications, yet the line between “prayer to saints” and “prayer to God” is fully drawn in their mind. But it is just not an issue for them and they don’t think apologetics as other Catholic here may.

I have to say though, before I came to the Catholic Church, when I realized that the teachings were not what I mistakenly thought, but actually biblical, I was going to “help bring these Catholics to real worship”. I thought since so many people thought that Catholics worship Mary, there had to be quite a few, or at least some who made that critical error.

I have yet to find even ONE Catholic, who worships Mary. Even those over the top, know every apparition, rosary praying Catholics.

In this case the smoke does not indicate a fire, but the well placed lies of Satan throwing up a smokescreen of deception, keeping the body of Christ separated.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[rr1213]

I do agree with you. I DO believe Catholics when speaking to non-Catholics should use “pray” in the manner of only speaking to God.

But we should also, if the matter comes up, explain how in Catholic terminology, Pray uses the older usage, (even if it still is in the modern dictionary), and the “common” understanding of the word pray has been narrowed over the years.
God Bless,
Maria

I think you are making a smart move by not using the word “prayer” when speaking to Protestants about this issue. You are more likely to be correctly understood that way. As for continuing to use the terminology among Catholics, y’all would know better than me if that poses a problem. On these boards, probably not…but not all Catholics are as well versed as you are about the Catholic faith. If they are not well taught, then they are likely to use language in the way that they know best…the common usage used by the rest of the world.

 

[MariaG]

I think you are making a smart move by not using the word “prayer” when speaking to Protestants about this issue. You are more likely to be correctly understood that way. As for continuing to use the terminology among Catholics, y’all would know better than me if that poses a problem. On these boards, probably not…but not all Catholics are as well versed as you are about the Catholic faith. If they are not well taught, then they are likely to use language in the way that they know best…the common usage used by the rest of the world.

But I have found that even those Catholics who are not “well versed” who could not verbalize a difference in honor, highest honor and worship, still understand the difference.

I could be wrong, but try it with a “real life” Catholic who is less than knowledgable, but still goes to Mass every week and prays regularly. Ask them if they pray to the saints. They will probably say yes. Ask them how it is different than praying to God and they will probably look at you funny and say “Well when I pray to the saints it is like I am talking to a close friend.”

Non-Catholics can get sidetracked into this and start on how Jesus should be that closest friend etc. But are losing sight of the fact that even though they do not express succintly in Catholic terminolgy, they are really showing the difference between honor and worship. The “prayer” line and difference between honor and worship is clearly drawn even when it cannot be clearly expressed. It “feels” different when one “prays” to the saints than when one prays to God.

As I had said earlier, I used to believe that “many” Catholics needed to get “truly saved” and needed to understand the difference between praying to God and the saints. “Everyone” knows that there are Catholics who worship Mary. The doctrine makes it easy to do so, or so I thought.

But I have yet to find a practicing Catholic who actually does worship Mary. Even the poorly educated ones.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Verita]

But the meaning of the word hasn’t really changed. It’s ALWAYS meant to ask. And it is still used that way. I learned what the word pray meant as a young child just from reading books.

Just because alot of people hear the word used in the context of asking God specifically and assume then that “prayer” is only for God doesn’t mean we should go abandoning the word. It’s their ignorance that has caused the confusion. They are responisble for learning the meaning of a word they hear without jumping to conclusions. Just because alot of people don’t do that isn’t a good reason for not using it anymore.

 

[rr1213]

But the meaning of the word hasn’t really changed. It’s ALWAYS meant to ask. And it is still used that way. I learned what the word pray meant as a young child just from reading books.

Just because alot of people hear the word used in the context of asking God specifically and assume then that “prayer” is only for God doesn’t mean we should go abandoning the word. It’s their ignorance that has caused the confusion. They are responisble for learning the meaning of a word they hear without jumping to conclusions. Just because alot of people don’t do that isn’t a good reason for not using it anymore.

Sure it is if the meaning has changed. See definition below for “sinister”…it still means “left” among other things, yet if you use that way who is going to understand you?

sin·is·ter (sn-str)
adj.

1. Suggesting or threatening evil: a sinister smile.
2. Presaging trouble; ominous: sinister storm clouds.
3. Attended by or causing disaster or inauspicious circumstances.
4. On the left side; left.
5. Heraldry Situated on or being the side of a shield on the wearer’s left and the observer’s right.

---

[Middle English sinistre, unfavorable, from Old French, from Latin sinister, on the left, unlucky.]

---

thefreedictionary.com/sinister

Considering that none of us (or at least very, very few) are reading the Scriptures or the ECFs in the original Hebrew, Greek or Latin, we are engaging in compromise to begin with by using English. My view, for what its worth, is that if you are going to use English, use language that will mean something to the people with whom you are speaking.

Anyway, we’ve beaten this topic to death I believe.

 

[Fidelis]

Sure it is if the meaning has changed. See definition below for “sinister”…it still means “left” among other things, yet if you use that way who is going to understand you?

LOL! When was the last time you heard anyone use “sinister” as a synonym for “left” in ANY context? By contrast, Catholics have * never stopped* using “prayer” as a synonym for “petition” or “entreaty.” Something doesn’t become archaic until it has stopped being used. That is not the case for this use of the word “prayer” – except among Protestants, who equate it with worship because, without the Mass, prayer is the highest form of worship they have – and among people who practice no religion at all.

Catholics have * never stopped *using it in this sense. Never have, never will. I’ll say it again – dumbing down language only makes people dumb and dumber, and banalizes the culture. If someone doesn’t understand something, you explain it to them, not bring the culture down if they can’t or won’t understand it.