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Peter_J
Guest
Would you say that you pray to them?
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Path_Finder
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steido01
Guest
No. From a fellow LCMSer, please take these two gentle corrections:
- We do not believe in consubstantiation, transubstantiation or any other Aristotelian explanation of the divine mystery that is the Lord’s Supper. Instead, we simply acknowledge that a Sacramental Union has occurred that defies human explanation.
- Do not fall into the heresy of Receptionism. You can not say that the Bread and Wine ever stop being Christ’s Body and Blood because Christ never said they stop being His Body and Blood. This is why we take such precious care of the Body and Blood after communion.
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steido01
Guest
Thank you for this, Pathfinder.
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spedteacherita
Guest
I do not pray to others … I pray to Jesus, God, and/or the Holy Spirit for the neefs of others. The Holy Spirit taking over for when I lack the words to express myself.
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Path_Finder
Guest
Do we pray to our friends? Not really, do we ask for their intercession? Yes.
With Mary, we ask for her intercession.
We may not be praying to a friend but one is requesting a favor all the same. One is “speaking to a friend”, requesting their intercession.
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Peter_J
Guest
But you do ask others for intercession. So you can see my point: the answer to the question of whether or not you “pray to” someone depends not on only what you do, but also on the very meaning of “pray to”. I don’t think it makes sense for you to insist absolutely on your definition of that English phrase, any more than it makes sense for Catholics to insist absolutely on our definition.
po18guy
Well-known member
I think that you would benefit greatly from a copy of Catholicism for Dummies, which is almost a standard reference work on the faith. Many Catholic inquiry classes use it.
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spedteacherita
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Don (Steido1) is correct and I apologise for misrepresenting the correct teaching with respect to celebrating Holy Communion in the LCMS.
The following quote is taken directly from ttheir website:
Q: In Communion, do we commune with the sacrificed body and blood of Jesus, or do we commune with the resurrected body and blood of Jesus?
A: The answer to your question is that we receive in, with, and under the bread and wine the true body and blood of Christ shed on the cross, Jesus Christ Who is now risen and ascended and sits at the right hand of God the Father. He is the same Christ, and when he gave us the Sacrament, as the Lutheran Confessions affirm, “he was speaking of his true, essential body, which he gave into death for us, and of his true, essential blood, which was poured out for us on the tree of the cross for the forgiveness of sins” (Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration VII, 49).
In the Sacrament, our Confessions further teach the same Jesus who died is present in the Sacrament, although not in exactly the same way he was corporeally present when he walked bodily on earth. With Luther, the Formula of Concord speaks of “the incomprehensible, spiritual mode of presence according to which he neither occupies nor yields space but passes through everything created as he wills … He employed this mode of presence when he left the closed grave and came through closed doors, in the bread and wine in the Supper …” lcms.org/faqs/doctrine#lordssupper
Don, let me know if I say this wrong but I rhought the way I understood it was
That it’s the Word of God and the elements used that at the time we take communion that benefit from the grace gives us that he fives to us at that time.
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Jack007
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Peter_J
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I saw your post last night, and wondered if another Lutheran poster would chime in with a clarification.
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Randy_Carson
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Great. So, you appreciate intercessory prayer.
Why would that matter?
“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (Luke 20:38)
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Randy_Carson
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spedteacherita-
Now you can see why I asked.
You stated that there were two objections that kept you from being Catholic. It seems to me that both of them are eroding quickly as we explore them in this thread.
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Kliska
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There are differences between Saints that are living here on earth, that’s us, and Saints that have gone on before us, such as Mary; there is a divide between the living here, and the living there it is an obvious (meaning a literal difference) and scriptural fact. To use the Body of Christ metaphor; your right hand doesn’t actually speak to your left, but rather goes through the “head” to do so. If my right hand has an itch and it needs scratched by the left, the right hand sends a communication to the head, and the head communicates to the left. It’s a similar situation to the angels; notice Jesus was going to go through the Father if He wanted angels to aid Him (Matthew 26:53). We all agree that Saints in Heaven don’t become God with all of His attributes. Add all these things together, hopefully people can a least understand the hesitancy of certain believers to talk with our dearly departed, living in Heaven though they are.
I agree that many protestants misunderstand the RCC’s position on the communion of saints and praying to them. I think each side over simplifies the other in a straw man fashion, and it doesn’t do any favors in dialogues. I also understand fully why our early departed were revered, so I do believe the early church would have looked to the models of our faith from the very beginning; Stephen, Mary, Peter, Paul, etc… just as they (and we) looked backward to the OT Saints of faith; David, Abraham, Rahab, etc…
I agree that many protestants misunderstand the RCC’s position on the communion of saints and praying to them. I think each side over simplifies the other in a straw man fashion, and it doesn’t do any favors in dialogues. I also understand fully why our early departed were revered, so I do believe the early church would have looked to the models of our faith from the very beginning; Stephen, Mary, Peter, Paul, etc… just as they (and we) looked backward to the OT Saints of faith; David, Abraham, Rahab, etc…
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Peter_J
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I’m not sure I see the problem. It’s not like we Cs claim to have a mode of speaking that God cannot hear (like if I were to say “St. Anthony, ask God to help me find my keys – but don’t tell him I asked you. Make it sound like it’s your own idea.”
).
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Kliska
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lolI’m not sure I see the problem. It’s not like we Cs claim to have a mode of speaking that God cannot hear (like if I were to say “St. Anthony, ask God to help me find my keys – but don’t tell him I asked you. Make it sound like it’s your own idea.”
For most of us, it’s a matter of respect. Respect for Jesus’ sacrifice opening the direct route to God for all of us, respect for the Father by going to Him in love and trust as His children, and the example of prayer(s) Jesus provides us in scripture. Whether or not it is a “problem” seems better suited to a debate type of thread, but that’s not what I’m trying to say here, I’m just attempting to provide a bit of (positive) insight into why many protestants get hung up on communicating with anyone but God in Heaven, even if we revere the hero’s of the faith, which includes Mary.
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steido01
Guest
Yes, the Lutheran view is that the elements could not be consecrated outside of the ‘Sacramental Act.’ I, and most Lutherans, understand this to mean that bread and wine consecrated solely for, say, adoration and not for consumption (as Christ instituted it) remains only bread and wine. But Christ never tells us that the Bread and Wine stop being His Body and Blood, or if they continue to be. To be safe, Lutherans treat it as if it were the latter - that’s why we either consume all of the Body and Blood (usual, and preferred) or otherwise properly dispose of the Body and Blood through the ancient means of pouring directly into the earth or burning.
I’d be happy to discuss this in another thread, or privately if you prefer. You’ve started a great thread about Mary in the Early Church, and I’d like to learn even more on that particular subject.
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