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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
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Loboto-Me
Guest
I didn’t read through to the end, and I’m not aware if this has been mention about asking Mary to pray for us.
As I was reading the OP, I was thinking that this poster was coming from the wrong end of the the question, but quickly noticed that someone had correctly mentioned that the the proof is not always in the bible since the Holy Tradition began hundreds of years before the written word.
Anyway, at the wedding at Cana, Jesus was at attendance with some of his disciples and Mary. If you notice, when there was a problem with the wine Mary took care of it quickly (interceded) on behalf of the wedding couple so that they wouldn’t be embarrassed. Notice how the Wedding Master didn’t just send out several strapping young men to go fetch some more wine? There was no shortage of men to do an errand, there were servants, there were male guests such as Jesus and the disciples. Instead, Mary took care of it by telling the servants to do as Jesus asked, even if it wasn’t yet His time. Jesus did not refuse His mother and obeyed. This is one example of scripture where Mary is the one who came to the rescue for the people, through Mary and given to Jesus.
Edited to add: I see Trishie already mentioned the wedding… and much better than I
but I suppose it doesn’t hurt to repeat it lol!
As I was reading the OP, I was thinking that this poster was coming from the wrong end of the the question, but quickly noticed that someone had correctly mentioned that the the proof is not always in the bible since the Holy Tradition began hundreds of years before the written word.
Anyway, at the wedding at Cana, Jesus was at attendance with some of his disciples and Mary. If you notice, when there was a problem with the wine Mary took care of it quickly (interceded) on behalf of the wedding couple so that they wouldn’t be embarrassed. Notice how the Wedding Master didn’t just send out several strapping young men to go fetch some more wine? There was no shortage of men to do an errand, there were servants, there were male guests such as Jesus and the disciples. Instead, Mary took care of it by telling the servants to do as Jesus asked, even if it wasn’t yet His time. Jesus did not refuse His mother and obeyed. This is one example of scripture where Mary is the one who came to the rescue for the people, through Mary and given to Jesus.
Edited to add: I see Trishie already mentioned the wedding… and much better than I
but I suppose it doesn’t hurt to repeat it lol!
C
Carlan
Guest
Christ Bearer;8977486 said:
At the beginning of the book of Acts we see the disciples praying WITH Mary, not praying TO Mary (Acts 1:14).
Welcome to Catholic Answers!
I offer to you Luke1:28-31
The angel Gabriel came to Mary and said,“Hail, full of grace the Lord is with you” …That is veneration! She is God’s highly favored daughter: Mary is to be the recipient of divine favor, i.e., of the sanctifying power of God, in view of her office of Mother of the Messiah, which the angel Gabriel announces to her. Praise God!
Peace, Carlan
S
SaintPatrick333
Guest
I hope then that you don’t ever ask anyone to pray for you because if you do you are becoming hypocritical in your stance. Asking Mary or any of the Saints to pray for us is no different than asking anyone at our parish/congregation/service to pray for us (say someone is sick for example). The Communion of Saints is Scriptural. I don’t get why this is a hang up for many protestant/non denominational groups?
po18guy
Well-known member
WooHoo! We can still pray for them, though
I
IggyAntiochus
Guest
It is not a hang up, I assure you. The Scripture adjures us to seek the prayers of Christians for intercession. It does not do the same with Christians who are deceased and with Christ. They do pray for the Church on earth, but there is no positive command or exhortation to ask for their prayers.
It isn’t a hang up, at least not for me. the Lutheran confessions makes the simple statement that, while we know that the saints in Heaven pray for us continually, there is no scriptural command, example, or promise regarding it. Therefore, we can put no assurance into the practice. That’s not to say that we can’t ask God to listen to their prayers for us, just as we ask him to hear the prayers of His entire Church Militant.
What I will say, however, is that I am reluctant to condemn the practice for those who wish to do so, as there is also no prohibition of it, and it has been the practice of Christians, both east and west, for centuries.
Jon
J
JustaServant
Guest
Hello and welcome to the forums.
I spent 20 years across the Tiber, a few of those years as a Baptist preacher before I returned to the Church.
I suppose each person has their own issues they struggle with concerning the teachings of the Catholic Church. For me, Mary and the saints were far down on the list. Issues like infant Baptism and the Eucharist took center stage. But as I said each person is different in which teachings they struggle with.
A few years ago I put my thoughts down on the issue of Mary and Saints, I hope they help. It’s in four parts.
**A Few thoughts on Mary and the Great Cloud of Witnesses. **
1.
Is God the God of the dead or the living? Are those in Heaven living or dead?
Becoming Catholic again created a strange situation for me.
What about Mary and the Saints?
Even as a flaming fundamentalist I knew better than to say Catholics worshipped Mary, mainly because I grew up Catholic and knew that wasn‘t true. But wasn’t PRAYING to Mary and the Saints ‘worship’? For almost twenty years I heard about ‘Marian idolatry’.
In my younger years I bought into the ’Two Babylons’ lie that ‘Mary and saint worship’ came from Babylon. I would often hear that “Catholics pray to dead people.” Even after I dismissed the anti-Catholic lies, I was still uncomfortable with praying to Mary or any other saint. Are saints mere “dead people”? Was Jesus was practicing witchcraft at the transfiguration?
How did God break through that wall?
It began with understanding how the early Church, and the Hebrews in particular dealt with the subject of death and the afterlife.
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.
Continued…
I spent 20 years across the Tiber, a few of those years as a Baptist preacher before I returned to the Church.
I suppose each person has their own issues they struggle with concerning the teachings of the Catholic Church. For me, Mary and the saints were far down on the list. Issues like infant Baptism and the Eucharist took center stage. But as I said each person is different in which teachings they struggle with.
A few years ago I put my thoughts down on the issue of Mary and Saints, I hope they help. It’s in four parts.
**A Few thoughts on Mary and the Great Cloud of Witnesses. **
1.
Is God the God of the dead or the living? Are those in Heaven living or dead?
Becoming Catholic again created a strange situation for me.
What about Mary and the Saints?
Even as a flaming fundamentalist I knew better than to say Catholics worshipped Mary, mainly because I grew up Catholic and knew that wasn‘t true. But wasn’t PRAYING to Mary and the Saints ‘worship’? For almost twenty years I heard about ‘Marian idolatry’.
In my younger years I bought into the ’Two Babylons’ lie that ‘Mary and saint worship’ came from Babylon. I would often hear that “Catholics pray to dead people.” Even after I dismissed the anti-Catholic lies, I was still uncomfortable with praying to Mary or any other saint. Are saints mere “dead people”? Was Jesus was practicing witchcraft at the transfiguration?
How did God break through that wall?
It began with understanding how the early Church, and the Hebrews in particular dealt with the subject of death and the afterlife.
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.
Continued…
J
JustaServant
Guest
God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:
Continued…
J
JustaServant
Guest
Part of understanding the Communion of Saints, is that we ask for those living and dead to intercede or carry our prayers to Jesus.
Mary is a part of this Communion of Saints.
She is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture. The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan.
This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation.
This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).
In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God.
The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down, Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.”
The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix,
Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
Continued…
Mary is a part of this Communion of Saints.
She is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture. The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan.
This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation.
This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).
In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God.
The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down, Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.”
The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix,
Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
Continued…
J
JustaServant
Guest
Nowhere in Catholic teaching is there anything that directs Catholics to worship Mary. Catholics do not ‘worship’ Mary, we do however venerate her.Venerate means To regard with respect, reverence, and heartfelt deference.One of the 10 Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.” One honors their father and mother and respects them. Catholics do so for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.Worship means the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object, which we do not accord to our parents.We pray “to” Mary in the old sense of the word. In Elizabethan English they would say "I pray thee…… It is a pleading to a person of dignity.
The Hail Mary says “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus! Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” We are first “praying the scriptures”, and second, we are asking Mary to pray for us to the Lord even as I might ask a living Christian to do. For “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
Family members and friends pray with and for one another, because we are the family of God.
When God touched my heart and the wall of anti-Catholicism was demolished, praying the Hail Mary was the first act I performed.
I remember it vividly. My whole world was shaken. In a moment of time God ‘mugged me from behind’ and the truth of the Catholic Church shown like a light in darkness. When I got home that night, I went into my bedroom alone and closed the door. That night I did something that I hadn’t done in two decades. I prayed the Lord’s Prayer and the Hail Mary.
The Lord’s Prayer was easy, that I had done many times before. I was scared to death to pray the Hail Mary. It was like kissing my wife for the first time. It was something I wanted to do and years of bigotry were overcome. After I was done, the Holy Spirit filled me with a joy I cannot describe.
A weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I felt at peace for the first time in many years.
The Hail Mary says “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus! Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” We are first “praying the scriptures”, and second, we are asking Mary to pray for us to the Lord even as I might ask a living Christian to do. For “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
Family members and friends pray with and for one another, because we are the family of God.
When God touched my heart and the wall of anti-Catholicism was demolished, praying the Hail Mary was the first act I performed.
I remember it vividly. My whole world was shaken. In a moment of time God ‘mugged me from behind’ and the truth of the Catholic Church shown like a light in darkness. When I got home that night, I went into my bedroom alone and closed the door. That night I did something that I hadn’t done in two decades. I prayed the Lord’s Prayer and the Hail Mary.
The Lord’s Prayer was easy, that I had done many times before. I was scared to death to pray the Hail Mary. It was like kissing my wife for the first time. It was something I wanted to do and years of bigotry were overcome. After I was done, the Holy Spirit filled me with a joy I cannot describe.
A weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I felt at peace for the first time in many years.
P
pismopal
Guest
You do acknowledge that “Christians” pray for the Church (That would be us ) but you don’t want to ask (pray) them to pray for you. OK…don’t ask them to pray for you if you insist but at least be polite enough to thank them.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Oh, and thank you Eric for getting rid of the trolls.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Well, so far, I couldn’t find the piece of Mary written by St. Ambrose, a Milano, the first doctor of the Church and pastoral doctor. He was the first to reflect on Mary, and had special grace of perceiving her choices in daily life. I came to an essay on Mary by Mark Miravelle and the ancient churches’ veneration.
But St Ambrose spoke of Mary in such a way like he knew her…but he lived 300 years after her life. I wish I could find it.
I like the post pointing out how, although the Master had help with men servants who could fetch wine, it was Mary who saw others’ needs before them.
Because we see her as our Heavenly Mother, and know that all who are alive in Christ in heaven pray on our behalf, she is a great model in being attentive to the needs around us…and how she turned to Christ/God to help at the wedding, instead of the men servants…she did not put her trust in men, but in God.
So that story is a good example of how perceptive Mary is in being a servant of Christ…and us.
We are not to pray to the dead.
But referring back to the nature of the Church, we are a collective body of believers…we are part of Christ’s Church…that exists in linear time to us, but the Church’s full reality is found rather in God’s existence of being.
We do not pray to the dead, but we in the spirit of the Church, pray to the Lord and all those in communion with Him in heaven, including the angels, for our intentions, protection, and perseverance in faith. So this type of praying to Mary and the saints is more ecclesial, more mystical and transcends time…
Because the Church is akin to a living, breathing sacrament that has within her all believers who endured in the faith to now…alive in Christ, but dead to self.
In the Christian life, the ones who are dead are us. We ask for prayers from our fellow believers, and we ask for prayers from those in heaven, and we also pray for the poor souls, and ask for their prayers as well…because they can see the face of God, although they are not fully united with Him.
Those in heaven have already passed the test and are alive fully in Christ. We are the dead, and ask for prayers from those alive in heaven. They serve God in heaven by praising Him and praying for us, and await our entrance to be with them!
The spiritual world of God is far greater and more real than the present world we live in.
To be a member of Christ’s Church is just that. We are not inclined to individualism but to the Ecclesia and communion.
But St Ambrose spoke of Mary in such a way like he knew her…but he lived 300 years after her life. I wish I could find it.
I like the post pointing out how, although the Master had help with men servants who could fetch wine, it was Mary who saw others’ needs before them.
Because we see her as our Heavenly Mother, and know that all who are alive in Christ in heaven pray on our behalf, she is a great model in being attentive to the needs around us…and how she turned to Christ/God to help at the wedding, instead of the men servants…she did not put her trust in men, but in God.
So that story is a good example of how perceptive Mary is in being a servant of Christ…and us.
We are not to pray to the dead.
But referring back to the nature of the Church, we are a collective body of believers…we are part of Christ’s Church…that exists in linear time to us, but the Church’s full reality is found rather in God’s existence of being.
We do not pray to the dead, but we in the spirit of the Church, pray to the Lord and all those in communion with Him in heaven, including the angels, for our intentions, protection, and perseverance in faith. So this type of praying to Mary and the saints is more ecclesial, more mystical and transcends time…
Because the Church is akin to a living, breathing sacrament that has within her all believers who endured in the faith to now…alive in Christ, but dead to self.
In the Christian life, the ones who are dead are us. We ask for prayers from our fellow believers, and we ask for prayers from those in heaven, and we also pray for the poor souls, and ask for their prayers as well…because they can see the face of God, although they are not fully united with Him.
Those in heaven have already passed the test and are alive fully in Christ. We are the dead, and ask for prayers from those alive in heaven. They serve God in heaven by praising Him and praying for us, and await our entrance to be with them!
The spiritual world of God is far greater and more real than the present world we live in.
To be a member of Christ’s Church is just that. We are not inclined to individualism but to the Ecclesia and communion.
J
JustaServant
Guest
This might help:
In the ancient world, because the king had many brides, a woman did not receive the title of queen until her son took the throne.
The queen was not married to the king, because there were far too many wives vying for such a title. And they couldn’t all be called queen.
The position of queen was held by the king’s mother. She was known as the queen mother.
If Mary’s Son has become the King of Kings (of both heaven and earth) then the Mother has become the Queen of heaven and earth
Pope Pius XII stated, “Mary is Queen by grace, by divine relationship, by right of conquest and by singular election. And her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.”
Our Lord also gave to the Church and each individual soul His Mother, the Queen of Heaven. For many centuries Christians have been accustomed to meditate upon the ruling power of Mary which embraces heaven and earth, when they consider the fifth glorious mystery of the rosary which can be called the mystical crown of the heavenly Queen.
To love Jesus is to also love His mother.
po18guy
Well-known member
Seemed like a tag team. We tried reason, logic, even scripture, but you know…
po18guy
Well-known member
But, faith is a work, is it not? As to the modern reliance almost solely on the Book of Romans, Romans 8:24 says that we are saved by hope. Which is true, Romans 3:28 or 8:24?
If you want to learn more about Catholic thought, you must also look outside of the book of Romans. That book is extremely important, but is also easily misunderstood and twisted. The bible tells us this in 2 Peter 3:15-16. This is why we listen to the Church, and not ourselves, in all such questions.
po18guy
Well-known member
This raises the specter of the innumerable miracles attributed to the Saints’ intercession being mere coincidence or worse, fabrication. I do note that a lot of long-held doctrines and practices became less and less clear among the primary reformers. This is such as example. Does it not also introduce the concept of doubt, if no assurance can be placed in it?
P
pismopal
Guest
And thanks to you for that wonderful post.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Justaservant…
Thank you for all your work and understanding of our Protestant brethren’s faith.
In the meantime, I came across Dr Mark Miraville’s piece on the earliest church outlook on Mary, how St. Ireneaus articulated and guided the devotion of Mary to followers living in the 100’s AD…he died around 200 A.D.
This would provide more historical background on earliest veneration of Mary. Documentation was difficult in the first 300 years of Christianity…but we look to various sources that record this veneration…such as the frescoes of Mary in the Roman catacombs.
link didn’t work…try again.
Thank you for all your work and understanding of our Protestant brethren’s faith.
In the meantime, I came across Dr Mark Miraville’s piece on the earliest church outlook on Mary, how St. Ireneaus articulated and guided the devotion of Mary to followers living in the 100’s AD…he died around 200 A.D.
This would provide more historical background on earliest veneration of Mary. Documentation was difficult in the first 300 years of Christianity…but we look to various sources that record this veneration…such as the frescoes of Mary in the Roman catacombs.
link didn’t work…try again.
- Status