Mary and the Saints

[Christ_Bearer]

I have been a confessional protestant for several years. Raised Southern Baptist, but never truly believed the gospel until age 21. Not brought to “the obedience of faith” until 25. Spent some time in a hardline-reformed Presbyterian Church. Attended a Calvinistic/Charismatic Church for 2 years. Now back at a Baptist Church. Don’t plant to go anywhere unless the Lord calls me to full time ministry.

I have been studying the early Church Fathers recently and have noticed some interesting strands of thought that don’t seem to far away from what I know of Catholic teaching. I have had many conceptions (possibly misconceptions) about Catholic teaching and practice for many years. I would like to know if anyone is up to the task of answering some questions for me. The best way to start this would be for me to post a typical protestant conception and start the dialogue from there. Here goes…

*Catholics venerate Mary to a degree that they actually worship her. Where in the Bible can we find evidence of anyone venerating Mary? At the beginning of the book of Acts we see the disciples praying WITH Mary, not praying TO Mary (Acts 1:14).

 

[IggyAntiochus]

I have been a confessional protestant for several years. Raised Southern Baptist, but never truly believed the gospel until age 21. Not brought to “the obedience of faith” until 25. Spent some time in a hardline-reformed Presbyterian Church. Attended a Calvinistic/Charismatic Church for 2 years. Now back at a Baptist Church. Don’t plant to go anywhere unless the Lord calls me to full time ministry.

I have been studying the early Church Fathers recently and have noticed some interesting strands of thought that don’t seem to far away from what I know of Catholic teaching. I have had many conceptions (possibly misconceptions) about Catholic teaching and practice for many years. I would like to know if anyone is up to the task of answering some questions for me. The best way to start this would be for me to post a typical protestant conception and start the dialogue from there. Here goes…

*Catholics venerate Mary to a degree that they actually worship her. Where in the Bible can we find evidence of anyone venerating Mary? At the beginning of the book of Acts we see the disciples praying WITH Mary, not praying TO Mary (Acts 1:14).

While I am a confessional Protestant and thus, do not agree with the practice of asking the saints for their intercession (so my answer is not what you’re seeking), it is a true statement that the Church Militant prays with the Church Triumphant…which would include the Blessed Virgin.

 

[Christ_Bearer]

I would concur with you there. Still wondering about the specific doctrine of Mary though.

 

[the_phoenix]

*Catholics venerate Mary to a degree that they actually worship her. Where in the Bible can we find evidence of anyone venerating Mary? At the beginning of the book of Acts we see the disciples praying WITH Mary, not praying TO Mary (Acts 1:14).

Welcome!

Worship of Mary would be wrong. Veneration is not worship. Here’s a Bible verse that can help you understand why Catholics venerate Mary.

“And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”

~~ Luke 1:46-48

Calling Mary “blessed”, for example, referring to her as the Blessed Mother, is venerating Mary, like it says in the Bible.

 

[SteveVH]

*Catholics venerate Mary to a degree that they actually worship her. Where in the Bible can we find evidence of anyone venerating Mary? At the beginning of the book of Acts we see the disciples praying WITH Mary, not praying TO Mary (Acts 1:14).

The Church was alive and well and spreading throughout the world for nearly 400 years before the wrtings which make up the Bible, as you know it, were decided upon and officially proclaimed as the inspired word of God. The Church depended upon Sacred Tradition, handed on to it from the Apostles, and the teaching authority of the Church. Sacred Scripture (the Bible) is that poriton of Sacred Tradition which was written down. So the Catholic Church did not come from the Bible, the Bible came from the Catholic Church and the Sacred Tradition of that Church.

I begin with this because there is an important principal here. The fact that you may not find something in the Bible, such as veneration of Mary, does not mean that it was not practiced by the early Church. But lets start with the fact that Catholics do not worship Mary. You will not find a Cathoic doctrine that instructs us to do that. Mary is not divine, she was as human as you and me, therefore to worship or adore her in the sense that we worship God would be idolatry. There was one, huge difference, however. No other human being can claim the same relationship to God as can Mary. She is the daughter of the Father, the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the mother of the Son. No other human has this intimate relationship with the Holy Trinity.

Something that is very (name removed by moderator)ortant for you to understand, concerning praying to saints in general, is a Catholic doctrine known as the “Communion of Saints” which is absent in most Protestant circles. We believe that we are not seperated by death from those who make up the body of Christ and are now in heaven. We are in communion with them by being a part of that same body of Christ. We communicate with them through prayer and ask their intercession for us just as I might ask you to pray for me. So the very idea of prayer, which, in the Protestant world is reserved only for God, is only a way of asking them to help us in our spiritual journey. We, of course, pray directly to God as well (just attend a Mass). You would not find anyone praying to Mary in the Bible because she was still here on earth with the Apostles and disciples at that time. Not only that, but the point of the New Testament was to announce the good news of Jesus Christ, not Mary. She always points us to her Son.

Hope that gets you started.

God bless.

 

[TraditonRules]

Babbling in prayers, worship to Saints and Mary. This is rebuked in the bible.

Only Christ is a mediator between man and God.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Hey the best you can do is ask and that is how you will find answers -

John 19:26-27

26
When Jesus saw his mother 11 and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.”
27
Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

Mary is given as our Mother

This video here is ALL Scripture - I hope you enjoy

The Truth About Mary and Scripture

I would also recommend reading St Iraneus.

 

[MonjaFutura]

We don’t pray to Mary! We simply ask that she pray for us because being the mother of His Son she is closer to God than we are. Think of the wedding at Cana. Jesus transformed the water into wine because His Mother had asked Him to. It makes sense that that continues in heaven. Hope this helps!

 

[SteveVH]

Babbling in prayers, worship to Saints and Mary. This is rebuked in the bible.

Only Christ is a mediator between man and God.

And we, and the saints in heaven, are the Body of Christ. No Catholic who knows their faith would ever worship anyone but the one, true God. Not sure what you are implying by “babbling in prayers” but the rosary is certainly not that. It is a meditation on life of Christ and the prayers are biblical.

 

[Miriam1947]

Babbling in prayers, worship to Saints and Mary. This is rebuked in the bible.

Only Christ is a mediator between man and God.

Where are you trying to come home to?

 

[SteveVH]

Just a little piece of evidence that Mary was venerated in the early Church:

The oldest known request to Mary, the “Sub Tuum Praesidium”, dates back to at least 300AD.

We fly to your patronage, O holy Theotokos;
despise not our petition in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O ever-glorious and blessed Virgin.

Theotokos means “Godbearer” or Mother of God. Thought you might be interested since your handle here is “God Bearer”.

 

[Christ_Bearer]

But how is it that you can say Mary is closer to God when we are filled with and led by His Spirit (Rom. 8) and we are in total union with Christ (Rom. 6)? Isn’t that the point of being united with him, justified by faith, so that we now have access into this grace in which we stand (Rom.6)?

 

[Link0126]

Best thing you could do would be do pick up a Catechism from the library or book store. They are about 6 dollars. This would be the best way to get official and informed information about the teachings of the Church. Of course, this forum is useful too, but you can explore any topic you want and be sure of the info in the Catechism.

There are many differences obviously between Catholics and Protestants, but one of the main ones, if not THE main one, is this: For Protestants their Faith is a product of the Bible, meaning their faith is derived from the words on the page. But the Catholic Church, being the oldest Christian Church, realizes that the Bible is a product of the Faith, meaning the Bible was written within the context of the Faith given to the Church. This is why the Catholic Church is not Sola Scriptura.

I know this doesn’t address your exact question but this is a foundational perspective to keep in mind if you wish to understand where the Church is coming from. The Bible is a product of the Christian Faith, not the other way around.

God Bless.

 

[blinds8]

I have been a confessional protestant for several years. Raised Southern Baptist, but never truly believed the gospel until age 21. Not brought to “the obedience of faith” until 25. Spent some time in a hardline-reformed Presbyterian Church. Attended a Calvinistic/Charismatic Church for 2 years. Now back at a Baptist Church. Don’t plant to go anywhere unless the Lord calls me to full time ministry.

I have been studying the early Church Fathers recently and have noticed some interesting strands of thought that don’t seem to far away from what I know of Catholic teaching. I have had many conceptions (possibly misconceptions) about Catholic teaching and practice for many years. I would like to know if anyone is up to the task of answering some questions for me. The best way to start this would be for me to post a typical protestant conception and start the dialogue from there. Here goes…

*Catholics venerate Mary to a degree that they actually worship her. Where in the Bible can we find evidence of anyone venerating Mary? At the beginning of the book of Acts we see the disciples praying WITH Mary, not praying TO Mary (Acts 1:14).

Tradition and dogma. I don’t worship Mary or any other figure in the church, God doesn’t want us to put anyone or anything before him although some things have come before him in some people’s lives, If you want a straight answer you will never get one. Some catholic’s in my city are prone to church’s that believe in the worship and veneration of Mary while I go to church’s that the general consensus is that she was a divine woman that God picked for the task of birthing Jesus and it ends there and what you do you do as long as you respect other’s rights to venerate her. So, I believe it’s up to the person. Why would you worship a dead middle eastern woman anyway? When it’s plain everything is done for the glory of The Creator. I ask for saints and mary and such to intercede in SOME of my prayers remember Faith without works is dead. And I whole heartidly believe that Jesus mom is in heaven but then again who can know that?

 

[KathleenGee]

If you don’t believe what we tell you about Mary…then what purpose are you here?

Do you ask your friends to pray for you?

We ask Mary to pray for us, and bless her for saying ‘yes’ to God to be Christ’s mother. She said all generations would call her blessed…

Our Church far exceeds those alive here in 2012.

Those who have died before us in Christ are more alive than we are, because they see the source of life, they see the face of God and are now totally united with the Source and Giver of Life.

And it is said in Scripture that heaven watches us with a thousand eyes praying to God constantly for us below. Mary was and is Christian par excellence. She knew Jesus better than anyone. And Mary is at the top of the saints. Of all of them, with her level of perfection, her prayers for us are exceptionally strong.

Catholicism is deep. Catholicism is complete.

We are not a faith based on a book, but on the living relationship with God through Christ in the communion of saints…that is what makes Christ’s Church. Not individual interpretation of Scripture…Bible alone, but Jesus, the Word Made Flesh…Sacred Scriptures and Tradition…how we understand Scripture through the Apostles in the transmission of faith through the Holy Spirit.

Christ told Peter to forgive. Do you have forgiveness for past sins of members of the Catholic Church???

I am thankful the OP is beginning to sense that what he was told about Catholics has aspects to it that may not be true. Why would a man of God misrepresent our faith??? If we are dedicated to Christ, we are dedicated to the Truth. Jesus is the Truth.

 

[joanofarc2008]

But how is it that you can say Mary is closer to God when we are filled with and led by His Spirit (Rom. 8) and we are in total union with Christ (Rom. 6)? Isn’t that the point of being united with him, justified by faith, so that we now have access into this grace in which we stand (Rom.6)?

We are lead by His Spirit but she also is with Him now in Heaven. Verses provided from CatholicBible101

**Mary, the New Testament Ark of the Covenant
**
Revelation 11:19-12:1:Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Mary’s body is in heaven

Revelation 12:1:And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Mary is Queen of Heaven

Revelation 12:1:And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Still at enmity with Satan

Revelation 12:17:Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

 

[followingtheway]

At the beginning of the book of Acts we see the disciples praying WITH Mary, not praying TO Mary (Acts 1:14).

Well of course, because she was alive (on earth) at the time. Did people start kneeling down to Jesus in the Bible and start praying to Him? If I were say a Jehovah’s Witness I could point where Jesus tells everyone how to pray “the Our Father”, and say “notice, how they’re not praying to Jesus, but to God, and therefore you shouldn’t pray to Jesus”

 

[blinds8]

Love love love

 

[blinds8]

If you don’t believe what we tell you about Mary…then what purpose are you here?

Do you ask your friends to pray for you?

We ask Mary to pray for us, and bless her for saying ‘yes’ to God to be Christ’s mother. She said all generations would call her blessed…

Our Church far exceeds those alive here in 2012.

Those who have died before us in Christ are more alive than we are, because they see the source of life, they see the face of God and are now totally united with the Source and Giver of Life.

And it is said in Scripture that heaven watches us with a thousand eyes praying to God constantly for us below. Mary was and is Christian par excellence. She knew Jesus better than anyone. And Mary is at the top of the saints. Of all of them, with her level of perfection, her prayers for us are exceptionally strong.

Catholicism is deep. Catholicism is complete.

We are not a faith based on a book, but on the living relationship with God through Christ in the communion of saints…that is what makes Christ’s Church. Not individual interpretation of Scripture…Bible alone, but Jesus, the Word Made Flesh…Sacred Scriptures and Tradition…how we understand Scripture through the Apostles in the transmission of faith through the Holy Spirit.

Christ told Peter to forgive. Do you have forgiveness for past sins of members of the Catholic Church???

I am thankful the OP is beginning to sense that what he was told about Catholics has aspects to it that may not be true. Why would a man of God misrepresent our faith??? If we are dedicated to Christ, we are dedicated to the Truth. Jesus is the Truth.

You my friend do you understand that I believe certain spiritual minded folk before I believe in the church? Or Christianity. There are many types of people who attend and make up the Church and not all of us believe the same way or the same things we understand God differently as he or she or it works in our lives and through Christ we know him better. We share that with our fellows whom make up the Church so don’t sandblast anyone searching for a spiritual home or answers with your intolerance. And the best place to find answers is on your own through prayer.

 

[SteveVH]

But how is it that you can say Mary is closer to God when we are filled with and led by His Spirit (Rom. 8) and we are in total union with Christ (Rom. 6)? Isn’t that the point of being united with him, justified by faith, so that we now have access into this grace in which we stand (Rom.6)?

All I said was that Mary had a special relationship with each person of the Trinity that no other person can claim. She was chosen, from all the people who ever lived or will live. I will not judge your relationship with Christ, but it is not the relationship that Mary had, not just with Christ but with the Father and the Holy Spirit as well. She was not just a uterus that God borrowed to bring his Son into the world. She was the mother of God, specially chosen for this purpose. Do you not have a special relationship with your mother; one none of the rest of us can claim?