Mary and the Saints

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Here is another and Dr Miravelle includes parts of the other link…

Well, this didn’t work either…Dr Miravelle speaks of Mary, the Blessed Virgin, the Bible, and the Early Church…the article is out there…
 
Jesus lived among his disciples and taught them for 3 years.

Jesus lived with his Mother the blessed Virgin Mary for 33 years.

Scripture reveals that the blessed Virgin Mary pondered the mysteries and revelations of Jesus and kept them in her heart all her life and eternally.

The blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints are more alive in God than we could ever be here on earth. Who intercedes on our behalf.

The blessed Virgin Mary possesses a treasure chest of graces and blessings from her Son Jesus Christ.

Jesus completes his family, when Jesus is joined to his bride the Church, whom he gives his Mother to his bride, who places her mother’s unconditional love for all her children, which is never lacking.

Our veneration of the blessed Virgin Mary, is the same love, devotion, shared by every Son who loves, honors and pays respect and devotion to ones loving mother relationship.

What child of God, would ever dishonor his mother, by disobeying God’s commandment to honor your father and mother?
 
Glad the trolls are gone, but what happened to the OP?
Well he was on this morning so it appears that maybe he is just reading and lurking a bit.

I do hope he returns and lets us know how we are doing and if our replies aer being of help.

Peace
James
 
But, faith is a work, is it not? As to the modern reliance almost solely on the Book of Romans, Romans 8:24 says that we are saved by hope. Which is true, Romans 3:28 or 8:24?

If you want to learn more about Catholic thought, you must also look outside of the book of Romans. That book is extremely important, but is also easily misunderstood and twisted. The bible tells us this in 2 Peter 3:15-16. This is why we listen to the Church, and not ourselves, in all such questions.
Yes! and also turn to the Book of Matthew, Listen to what Jesus said!
It is not the same reading Jesus through Paul(The eyes of Paul)or our oun particular interpretation of Paul, as much as we love Paul, it is what Jesus says.
Peace, Carlan
 
This raises the specter of the innumerable miracles attributed to the Saints’ intercession being mere coincidence or worse, fabrication. I do note that a lot of long-held doctrines and practices became less and less clear among the primary reformers. This is such as example. Does it not also introduce the concept of doubt, if no assurance can be placed in it?
Well, of course there is a level of doubt regarding it, from our perspective, as there is no command or promise regarding it. But I would never claim that there is fabrication involved.
Nor do I believe that God would close His love to a prayer for His grace, simply because it was directed to His saints.

Jon
 
Was the OP and troll a team…one the straight man, the other the challenger?

Or OP is reflecting and studying the sharings…seen that happen…hopefully he will come back

Last night I met a new member of our care team…the family is Greek Orthodox with icons of Theotokos through house. The new member said to me…‘they are different…well, I am a Christian.’ I said ‘why do you say that?’…‘They are Mary worshippers.’ I said, ‘I am Catholic. This idea of being Mary worshippers is not true…we are Christian.’

I bit my tongue suggesting she go to another church that atleast teaches the truth about other faiths.
 
Dear Christ Bearer: Your questioning why we venerate Mary reminded me of the angel Gabriel’s greeting to Mary related in the Gospel of Saint Luke Chapter 1, verse 28. "And when the angel had come to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women”. Should we regard her less than does the angel Gabriel?
To be more correct, the angel said ’ Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you’.

The words ‘Blessed are you among women’ (followed by ‘and blessed is the fruit of your womb’) are the words of St. Elizabeth at the Visitation.
 
But how is it that you can say Mary is closer to God when we are filled with and led by His Spirit (Rom. 8) and we are in total union with Christ (Rom. 6)? Isn’t that the point of being united with him, justified by faith, so that we now have access into this grace in which we stand (Rom.6)?
This is in addition to the answers already given. I would recommend a book to you…to get a fuller understanding of the marian dogmas…from a convert named Scott Hahn…his book called Hail Holy Queen…amazon.com/Hail-Holy-Queen-Mother-Word/dp/0385501692

He goes on to trace the Church’s high regard for Mary to the early days of Christianity, when, he writes, Mary was regarded as the “new Eve” and was identified with the “ark of the new covenant.” Hahn also deals carefully with the Catholic Church’s teaching on Mary’s immaculate conception and assumption into heaven, and answers the objections of those who, as he once did, regard devotion to Mary as akin to goddess worship. Although he writes mainly to enlighten fellow Catholics about the basis for the Church’s great reverence for Mary, Hahn’s well-researched work will be instructive to anyone interested in the history of the Church’s teaching on this subject

And I will leave you with this…the words of Christ on the cross…“behold your mother”…from the words of John Paul II…ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm49.htm

These particularly moving words are a “revelation scene”: they reveal the deep sentiments of the dying Christ and contain a great wealth of meaning for Christian faith and spirituality. At the end of his earthly life, as he addressed his Mother and the disciple he loved, the crucified Messiah establishes a new relationship of love between Mary and Christians.

Interpreted at times as no more than an expression of Jesus’ filial piety towards his Mother whom he entrusts for the future to his beloved disciple, these words go far beyond the contingent need to solve a family problem. In fact, attentive consideration of the text, confirmed by the interpretation of many Fathers and by common ecclesial opinion, presents us, in Jesus’ twofold entrustment, with one of the most important events for understanding the Virgin’s role in the economy of salvation.

The universal motherhood of Mary, the “Woman” of the wedding at Cana and of Calvary, recalls Eve, “mother of all living” (Gn 3:20). However, while the latter helped to bring sin into the world, the new Eve, Mary, co-operates in the saving event of Redemption. Thus in the Blessed Virgin the figure of “woman” is rehabilitated and her motherhood takes up the task of spreading the new life in Christ among men.

Jesus’ words, “Behold, your son”, effect what they express, making Mary the mother of John and of all the disciples destined to receive the gift of divine grace.
  1. On the Cross Jesus did not proclaim Mary’s universal motherhood formally, but established a concrete maternal relationship between her and the beloved disciple. In the Lord’s choice we can see his concern that this motherhood should not be interpreted in a vague way, but should point to Mary’s intense, personal relationship with individual Christians.
May each one of us, precisely through the concrete reality of Mary’s universal motherhood, fully acknowledge her as our own Mother, and trustingly commend ourselves to her maternal love.
 
This has been extremely helpful. I don’t really know where I stand on this. I still think about the passage:

"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
(Matthew 12:46-50 ESV)

and also:
"As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
(Luke 11:27-28 ESV)

Not to say that Jesus has no regard for his mother. But it seems that he IS deflecting a preeminence that his mother may have over against the importance of who are the true people of God by virtue of their obedience to his commands.

Any thoughts?
 
This has been extremely helpful. I don’t really know where I stand on this. I still think about the passage:

"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
(Matthew 12:46-50 ESV)

and also:
"As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
(Luke 11:27-28 ESV)

Not to say that Jesus has no regard for his mother. But it seems that he IS deflecting a preeminence that his mother may have over against the importance of who are the true people of God by virtue of their obedience to his commands.

Any thoughts?
What we see elsewhere in Scripture rules out the conclusion that Jesus was out to minimize His Mother in these passages.

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 1:46-55[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Jn 19:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 12:17[/BIBLEDRB]

See also: Scriptural proofs for the Marian Dogmas and Behold Your Mother
 
This has been extremely helpful. I don’t really know where I stand on this. I still think about the passage:
"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
(Matthew 12:46-50 ESV)
 
I have been a confessional protestant for several years. Raised Southern Baptist, but never truly believed the gospel until age 21. Not brought to “the obedience of faith” until 25. Spent some time in a hardline-reformed Presbyterian Church. Attended a Calvinistic/Charismatic Church for 2 years. Now back at a Baptist Church. Don’t plant to go anywhere unless the Lord calls me to full time ministry.

I have been studying the early Church Fathers recently and have noticed some interesting strands of thought that don’t seem to far away from what I know of Catholic teaching. I have had many conceptions (possibly misconceptions) about Catholic teaching and practice for many years. I would like to know if anyone is up to the task of answering some questions for me. The best way to start this would be for me to post a typical protestant conception and start the dialogue from there. Here goes…

*Catholics venerate Mary to a degree that they actually worship her. Where in the Bible can we find evidence of anyone venerating Mary? At the beginning of the book of Acts we see the disciples praying WITH Mary, not praying TO Mary (Acts 1:14).
mark
 
I have been a confessional protestant for several years. Raised Southern Baptist, but never truly believed the gospel until age 21. Not brought to “the obedience of faith” until 25. Spent some time in a hardline-reformed Presbyterian Church. Attended a Calvinistic/Charismatic Church for 2 years. Now back at a Baptist Church. Don’t plant to go anywhere unless the Lord calls me to full time ministry.

I have been studying the early Church Fathers recently and have noticed some interesting strands of thought that don’t seem to far away from what I know of Catholic teaching. I have had many conceptions (possibly misconceptions) about Catholic teaching and practice for many years. I would like to know if anyone is up to the task of answering some questions for me. The best way to start this would be for me to post a typical protestant conception and start the dialogue from there. Here goes…

*Catholics venerate Mary to a degree that they actually worship her. Where in the Bible can we find evidence of anyone venerating Mary? At the beginning of the book of Acts we see the disciples praying WITH Mary, not praying TO Mary (Acts 1:14).
Hello. I’m kind of coming into the thread late, but I thought that I’d add my two cents, anyway. I suppose part of the reason that Protestants sometimes accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary is that Protestants and Catholics have different ideas of worship. To Protestants, worship is, essentially, prayer and maybe praise music or reading the Bible. (No offense intended. These are all good things and activities.) Catholics see worship as focused specifically in the Mass, which is centered entirely on Christ and the Eucharist, and in the Eucharistic Adoration of the Body and Blood of Jesus. To Catholics, prayer may be worship if it is addressed to God, but it may simply be a means of communication and reflection if it is directed toward Mary or another saint.

I would also suggest that many Catholics feel like they are praying with Mary or with another saint, rather than to Mary or another saint. Most of the time they are asking Mary or another saint to join them in prayer.

When Gabriel, at God’s command, says “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee” and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, says “Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,” both Gabriel and Elizabeth seem to be venerating Mary. Their words form the basis of the most common Marian prayer the “Hail Mary.” When so much of the “Hail Mary” comes directly from Scripture, I don’t think it’s fair to call that veneration of her unbiblical.

It might help, though, if you thought of every Marian devotion and dogma as being about Jesus and not Mary. Mary is Immaculately Conceived, because she is the Ark of the New Covenant (dwelling place of the Word of God) and must be pure and without blemish as the Ark of the Old Covenant was. Mary is perpetually virginal because she is the gate through which God Incarnate entered the world, and no other man is fit to enter through that gate. She is the Mother of God, because Jesus is God Incarnate, Jesus is both God and man, Jesus’ human and divine nature are not able to be separated as they exist in perfect harmony with each other, and women are mothers to people, not to natures. Mary was Assumed because it shows the lifting up to Heaven of body and spirit that Christians hope God, in His mercy and grace, will eventually bestow upon them.

It also might help if you knew that the Catholic Church believes that Mary could only be Immaculately Conceived because Christ’s sacrifice was applied to her before her conception (so she was prevented by God’s grace from falling into the mud puddle of Original Sin that dirties everyone else except Jesus). Mary was preserved from Original Sin by her Son’s merit, not her own, and because Jesus’ sacrifice is what kept Mary clean from dirt in the first place He is as much her Savior as He is ours. You might say that Jesus’ ability to keep Mary without blemish is an example of the kind of cleansing us Christians hope Jesus will be able to achieve for us. In a way, when you understand who Mary was, you see more fully just how special Jesus was, and when you realize the marvels He achieved for her, you are filled with awe for what He can do for you, too.
 
This has been extremely helpful. I don’t really know where I stand on this. I still think about the passage:

"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
(Matthew 12:46-50 ESV)

and also:
"As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
(Luke 11:27-28 ESV)

Not to say that Jesus has no regard for his mother. But it seems that he IS deflecting a preeminence that his mother may have over against the importance of who are the true people of God by virtue of their obedience to his commands.

Any thoughts?
Good to hear back from you sir and I’m glad that we have been of help.
The fact that you “don’t know where you stand” is a good thing. Being open minded allows for illumination. 👍

You have posted a couple of good passages and important ones because - although some will deny it - there ARE Catholics who tend to take Marion veneration a bit too far. The Catechism even warns of this.
The Passages above, when seen within the context of the other passages pointed out - as well as the mere fact of Mary’s mention at various points in the Bible, indicate a balance. The balance that the Church has sought to maintain in our devotion to our Holy Mother reflects this biblical balance.

So do try to look at the matter as a whole.

Peace
James
 
This has been extremely helpful. I don’t really know where I stand on this. I still think about the passage:

"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
(Matthew 12:46-50 ESV)

and also:
"As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
(Luke 11:27-28 ESV)

Not to say that Jesus has no regard for his mother. But it seems that he IS deflecting a preeminence that his mother may have over against the importance of who are the true people of God by virtue of their obedience to his commands.
Any thoughts?
Given the books that I have read from the Saints, it was the desire of Mary to have Her importance unrevealed during Her lifetime, that is why Jesus made this statement. And you may ask, why was this Her desire? Mary knows the Truth, which is we are nothing without God. She lived this Truth perfectly throughout Her Life. She is a perfect example of a Humble soul. What does God say about the humble? They will be exalted. That is one of the reasons we wish to exalt Mary.

As far as praying to Mary, I must say that I do pray to Her, but not as a form to worship Her as God, but rather to ask Her to take my imperfect Love and prayers, make them perfect and offer them to Jesus. I want to Love Jesus perfectly, and I know I can do this through our Blessed Mother Mary.

Do you believe that Mary is the spiritual Mother of all Christians?
 
I don’t really know if I regard her at the Mother of all Christians. I am still thinking on it. I think there is some plausibility to the argument. But still not entirely convinced.
 
Hello. I’m kind of coming into the thread late, but I thought that I’d add my two cents, anyway. I suppose part of the reason that Protestants sometimes accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary is that Protestants and Catholics have different ideas of worship. To Protestants, worship is, essentially, prayer and maybe praise music or reading the Bible. (No offense intended. These are all good things and activities.) Catholics see worship as focused specifically in the Mass, which is centered entirely on Christ and the Eucharist, and in the Eucharistic Adoration of the Body and Blood of Jesus. To Catholics, prayer may be worship if it is addressed to God, but it may simply be a means of communication and reflection if it is directed toward Mary or another saint.

I would also suggest that many Catholics feel like they are praying with Mary or with another saint, rather than to Mary or another saint. Most of the time they are asking Mary or another saint to join them in prayer.

When Gabriel, at God’s command, says “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee” and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, says “Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,” both Gabriel and Elizabeth seem to be venerating Mary. Their words form the basis of the most common Marian prayer the “Hail Mary.” When so much of the “Hail Mary” comes directly from Scripture, I don’t think it’s fair to call that veneration of her unbiblical.

It might help, though, if you thought of every Marian devotion and dogma as being about Jesus and not Mary. Mary is Immaculately Conceived, because she is the Ark of the New Covenant (dwelling place of the Word of God) and must be pure and without blemish as the Ark of the Old Covenant was. Mary is perpetually virginal because she is the gate through which God Incarnate entered the world, and no other man is fit to enter through that gate. She is the Mother of God, because Jesus is God Incarnate, Jesus is both God and man, Jesus’ human and divine nature are not able to be separated as they exist in perfect harmony with each other, and women are mothers to people, not to natures. Mary was Assumed because it shows the lifting up to Heaven of body and spirit that Christians hope God, in His mercy and grace, will eventually bestow upon them.

It also might help if you knew that the Catholic Church believes that Mary could only be Immaculately Conceived because Christ’s sacrifice was applied to her before her conception (so she was prevented by God’s grace from falling into the mud puddle of Original Sin that dirties everyone else except Jesus). Mary was preserved from Original Sin by her Son’s merit, not her own, and because Jesus’ sacrifice is what kept Mary clean from dirt in the first place He is as much her Savior as He is ours. You might say that Jesus’ ability to keep Mary without blemish is an example of the kind of cleansing us Christians hope Jesus will be able to achieve for us. In a way, when you understand who Mary was, you see more fully just how special Jesus was, and when you realize the marvels He achieved for her, you are filled with awe for what He can do for you, too.
Beautifully said.
 
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