Mary and Worship

[Sarmad]

I know as Catholics, we worship only God. But recently, this statement from the II Vatican Council was brought up to my attention and I can’t make sense of it:

“Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father.” (Vol. 1, pp. 420 and 421)

I found a website that had the full document: evangelicaloutreach.org/official.htm

The statement “when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship”] sounds like the Church is saying either of these: 1) That its okay for Mary to be worshipped or 2) Its not okay for Mary to be worshipped but if she was to be worshipped then… [but it wouldn’t make sense why they would even mention the second one]

I already know that the Catholic Church doesn’t worship Mary. And the source below explained to me what worship is defined as in the Catholic Church:

patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/do-catholics-worship-mary.html

I just don’t understand why that word is used in that passage. Maybe I don’t understand the whole passage. But it does sound like worshiping Mary to me and I’m pretty confused by it. I will appreciate any help I can get with it!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I know as Catholics, we worship only God. But recently, this statement from the II Vatican Council was brought up to my attention and I can’t make sense of it:

“Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father.” (Vol. 1, pp. 420 and 421)

I found a website that had the full document: evangelicaloutreach.org/official.htm

The statement “when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship”] sounds like the Church is saying either of these: 1) That its okay for Mary to be worshipped or 2) Its not okay for Mary to be worshipped but if she was to be worshipped then… [but it wouldn’t make sense why they would even mention the second one]

I already know that the Catholic Church doesn’t worship Mary. And the source below explained to me what worship is defined as in the Catholic Church:

patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/do-catholics-worship-mary.html

I just don’t understand why that word is used in that passage. Maybe I don’t understand the whole passage. But it does sound like worshiping Mary to me and I’m pretty confused by it. I will appreciate any help I can get with it!

Cherry picking. They are not using the actual documents of Vatican II, they are cherry picking (taking phrases out of context) from a book which TALKS ABOUT the documents of Vatican II. Without seeing the context of the statements (even though it talks about seeing them on ‘page whatever’) you can’t be sure what the whole section is about. You can’t even be sure that the website which posted this, which is obviously quite anti Catholic, didn’t ‘insert a word or two’ because let’s face it, the item is pretty far down, and if people have read through on some of the others and seen the phrases in the book, they’ll ‘assume’ that EVERYTHING is pulled exactly from the book, even if it isn’t. . .

If for example the statement was pulled from an early document of the Church, in which worship (the word meaning ‘worth ship’ or 'condition of having worth ) was used not just for Mary, but for people like JUDGES IN GREAT BRITTAIN (who are called ‘your worship’ to THIS DAY), then we get an understanding by seeing that concomitant with this was the teaching on latria, dulia, and hyperdulia. Latria is the kind of worth of a good person, like a saint. Worth-ship or ‘worship’ of a saint is 'latria. Dulia is the worth of a uniquely ‘good person’ --the woman who bore the Savior. . .this worth ship or worship of Mary is dulia. and hyper (hyper, more, to the max) of worth ship or worship is that given to GOD. All beings have worth (worth ship or worship). In the English Book of Common Prayer, in the wedding ceremony the bride and groom tell each other “With MY BODY, I THEE WORSHIP”. Incredible, right? Common, ordinary, unsainted people are WORSHIPPING EACH OTHER!!

So, pay no attention to the modernites trying to ‘retro’ their narrow-minded, anti-Catholic ‘redefinitions’ of words and making their OWN words usurp the original, new, and FULL definitions.

 

[SighGuy]

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

There’s the actual document. The author of this evangelical website that you are searching on changed the word “veneration” to “worship” to make Catholicism look less valid (it’s way down, section 65)

Don’t research things on pages full of lies.
“Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour.”
Consider your soul when you read such vile. Remember also Socrates’ advice on what we feed our minds with. We are less careful about what we feed our minds with, than with what we feed our bodies with, and yet our minds are the greater.

If you almost ingested that lie, what else can you have already swallowed?


Thank God you did not doubt the faith but came here for answers!

 

[fred_conty]

I believe it might refer to the Masses that are done in her feast days such as the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, etc, where the people honor Mary in their worship of God. So in this case she would be the “subject of worship” since she is the principle person in the worship offered to God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

there’s the actual document. The author of this evangelical website that you are searching on changed the word “veneration” to “worship” to make catholicism look less valid (it’s way down, section 65)

don’t research things on pages full of lies.
“be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour.”
consider your soul when you read such vile. Remember also socrates’ advice on what we feed our minds with. We are less careful about what we feed our minds with, than with what we feed our bodies with, and yet our minds are the greater.

If you almost ingested that lie, what else can you have already swallowed?


Thank god you did not doubt the faith but came here for answers!

great catch there!

 

[Sarmad]

Thank you all for your amazing responses. I was saying it didn’t make sense. And I didn’t trust that site that’s why I asked it on here. I looked through the documents of the Second Vatican Council and searched for that worship phrase but I couldn’t find it, that is why I came here because I knew people much smarter and wiser than me could offer better insight. Thank you all!

 

[Elizium23]

If for example the statement was pulled from an early document of the Church, in which worship (the word meaning ‘worth ship’ or 'condition of having worth ) was used not just for Mary, but for people like JUDGES IN GREAT BRITTAIN (who are called ‘your worship’ to THIS DAY), then we get an understanding by seeing that concomitant with this was the teaching on latria, dulia, and hyperdulia. Latria is the kind of worth of a good person, like a saint. Worth-ship or ‘worship’ of a saint is 'latria. Dulia is the worth of a uniquely ‘good person’ --the woman who bore the Savior. . .this worth ship or worship of Mary is dulia. and hyper (hyper, more, to the max) of worth ship or worship is that given to GOD. All beings have worth (worth ship or worship). In the English Book of Common Prayer, in the wedding ceremony the bride and groom tell each other “With MY BODY, I THEE WORSHIP”. Incredible, right? Common, ordinary, unsainted people are WORSHIPPING EACH OTHER!!

No, actually you have it mixed up. Dulia is the veneration of a saint. Hyperdulia is veneration given to Mary, and latria is worship of God alone.

 

[Petaro]

It goes to show what malicious people are out there trying to fool the innocent reader. It is a timely warning to us all of the value in staying with catholic sites in their search for the truth. Innocent difference of opinion is one thing but this deliberate fraud is immoral. Thank God we have wise posters who have taken the time to go to the source. Truly an instrument of the Holy Spirit. Thank You.

 

[Sarmad]

It goes to show what malicious people are out there trying to fool the innocent reader. It is a timely warning to us all of the value in staying with catholic sites in their search for the truth. Innocent difference of opinion is one thing but this deliberate fraud is immoral. Thank God we have wise posters who have taken the time to go to the source. Truly an instrument of the Holy Spirit. Thank You.

Very true! I’m blessed for this place and these people!! Idk what I’d do without!!! Again I thank everyone for their wisdom and guidance!

 

[Sarmad]

Don’t research things on pages full of lies.
“Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour.”
Consider your soul when you read such vile. Remember also Socrates’ advice on what we feed our minds with. We are less careful about what we feed our minds with, than with what we feed our bodies with, and yet our minds are the greater.

If you almost ingested that lie, what else can you have already swallowed?

Don’t worry, I know better than to trust a non-Catholic website about Catholic teachings. And I only searched for this because I heard about it, not because I like to casually read protestant or anti-Catholic stuff. I know better! Thank you for your reply and for the search!

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I know as Catholics, we worship only God. But recently, this statement from the II Vatican Council was brought up to my attention and I can’t make sense of it:

“Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father.” (Vol. 1, pp. 420 and 421)

I found a website that had the full document: evangelicaloutreach.org/official.htm

The statement “when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship”] sounds like the Church is saying either of these: 1) That its okay for Mary to be worshipped or 2) Its not okay for Mary to be worshipped but if she was to be worshipped then… [but it wouldn’t make sense why they would even mention the second one]

I already know that the Catholic Church doesn’t worship Mary. And the source below explained to me what worship is defined as in the Catholic Church:

patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/do-catholics-worship-mary.html

I just don’t understand why that word is used in that passage. Maybe I don’t understand the whole passage. But it does sound like worshiping Mary to me and I’m pretty confused by it. I will appreciate any help I can get with it!

The passage in question is Lumen Gentium, #65. The Vatican translation is: For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated praedicatur et colitur], calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father.

The Latin verb colo, which means “veneration” or “respect” (not adoration) in Catholic usage, is the word in question in the text you cite. Adoratio (adoration, worship) belongs to God alone and is not used in the text you cite as the next article (#66) makes clear. Colo and veneratio are synonyms in Church Latin and in Lumen gentium.

"“This cult [of veneration (*colo)], as it always existed, although it is altogether singular, differs essentially from the cult of adoration (adoratio) which is offered to the Incarnate Word, as well to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and it is most favorable to it.” (LG, #66) Earlier in #66 it speaks of “veneration” (veneratio) regarding Mary, not “adoration.”

 

[Apologist_WanaB]

Maybe this deserves it’s own thread, but it seems to be related…

I’m a convert to Catholicism, and I understand the conceptual differences between adoration vs veneration, and of dulia vs hyperdulia vs latria. However, I don’t understand the practical differences.

For example, would offering all of ones merits to Mary be considered hyperdulia or latria, veneration or adoration? What are some examples of adoration that would not be appropriate to give to anyone but God? What are some examples of appropriate veneration of the saints (Mary in particular)?

Any help understanding this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[po18guy]

Don’t worry, I know better than to trust a non-Catholic website about Catholic teachings. And I only searched for this because I heard about it, not because I like to casually read protestant or anti-Catholic stuff. I know better! Thank you for your reply and for the search!

If you want to see how interested they are in the truth, email them with a correction! However, since they are uttering the forgery themselves…

 

[Billy_Buescher]

Hello,

Worship has a lot of different meanings, Jesus talks about people being worshiped and not in a bad way.

(Luk 14:10) But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

As long as we do not offer up sacrifice and praise on the alter, which is due only to God, in my opinion that is the worhsip due to God alone.

We unite sacrifice with Mary’s.

(1Co 10:16) The chalice of benediction which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?
(1Co 10:17) For we, being many, are one bread, one body: all that partake of one bread.
(1Co 10:18) Behold Israel according to the flesh. Are not they that eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Bill

 

[twf]

No, actually you have it mixed up. Dulia is the veneration of a saint. Hyperdulia is veneration given to Mary, and latria is worship of God alone.

You misunderstood Tantum ergo’s post. Tangum ergo was spot on. The word “worship” didn’t always have the same connotation in English that it does today. Today it is typically used exclusively for “adoration” or “latria”, which is due only to God, but historically the word was used more broadly to refer to honor or veneration due to a “worthy” individual. In Canada, mayors are formally addressed as “Your Worship” or “His Worship, the Mayor”, and likewise in the UK this is true of judges (and I assume mayors as well?). For this reason you will find older English translations of prayers that do indeed refer to the worship of Mary, the saints, and the angels…the meaning of words changes over time.

 

[Elizium23]

You misunderstood Tantum ergo’s post. Tangum ergo was spot on. The word “worship” didn’t always have the same connotation in English that it does today. Today it is typically used exclusively for “adoration” or “latria”, which is due only to God, but historically the word was used more broadly to refer to honor or veneration due to a “worthy” individual. In Canada, mayors are formally addressed as “Your Worship” or “His Worship, the Mayor”, and likewise in the UK this is true of judges (and I assume mayors as well?). For this reason you will find older English translations of prayers that do indeed refer to the worship of Mary, the saints, and the angels…the meaning of words changes over time.

No, Tantum ergo was not spot on. Here is what Tantum ergo said:
Tantum ergo:

Worth-ship or ‘worship’ of a saint is 'latria. Dulia is the worth of a uniquely ‘good person’ --the woman who bore the Savior. . .this worth ship or worship of Mary is dulia. and hyper (hyper, more, to the max) of worth ship or worship is that given to GOD.

That is not correct, it is all mixed up, and that is the point which I intended to correct in my post. She was correct with her assertion that “worship” has a wider meaning, I am not disputing that English lesson, I am disputing the Greek lesson, because she had the Greek words associated with the wrong actions.

 

[twf]

No, Tantum ergo was not spot on. Here is what Tantum ergo said:

That is not correct, it is all mixed up, and that is the point which I intended to correct in my post. She was correct with her assertion that “worship” has a wider meaning, I am not disputing that English lesson, I am disputing the Greek lesson, because she had the Greek words associated with the wrong actions.

My mistake - I missed the latria mix up in the original post.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

My mistake - I missed the latria mix up in the original post.

Yes, obviously so did I!!!

Sorry, everybody!

My brain must have tried to go on vacation since my body never gets the chance to!!!

 

[Sirach2]

Your best clues would be to immediately discern that the entire article attacks Catholic beliefs, as evident in the words that are bolded. I don’t know how you found this article, OP, but anything they have stated therein is bogus, vicious, erroneous, and typical teaching of Protestantism.