Mary as an Intercessor?

[Jeremy_Peter]

Hello.

I am truly interested in becoming a Catholic again, but there are a few things that I strongly disagree with. I would like to tackle one at a time; prayers to Mary being the first.

I would like to come to a better understanding of the following:

I understand that there is only one mediator between God and Man, namely; Jesus Christ. My belief is that there is no need for any sort of help from anyone else except Jesus. As Christ is in the Father and the Father is in Christ, so Christ is in us as we are in Christ. We have the privilege of being directly connected to the Father through Christ. Why would we need anyone else to pray for us? As far as I know, Christ suffered, even more so, as we suffer, giving Him commonality as fully human, yet fully God. He understands our suffering more than anyone. Why would I want to pray to Mary or the saints (my fellow sufferers and brothers in faith) when Christ is the only mediator and lives in me?

I agree that Mary had a special role as being a vessel that carried Christ in her womb, but she also was married to Joseph and had children after Jesus. She made love to her husband, had children, and continued life as most of us usually do. Did the twelve not suffer more than she, and for most of their lives? She was definitely favoured by God, but that was before Christ was born and brought the new message to His people. As Jesus was speaking to the crowd his mother asked for him. He made it clear that those that do the will of the Father are his mother, brother, and sister making it clear that she was just as those who do the will of the Father.

Please do not get me wrong. By no means am I saying that Mary is not important, but the emphasis that is given to her is superfluous. She is called the Virgin Mary, but was not a virgin after she had children with Joseph. Secondly, to assume that she was physically taken up to heaven is not backed by any scripture. As far as I know, even the twelve died and were buried without such a privilege. Throughout the bible, Christ doesn’t really even mention Mary. Why all the emphasis on her if Christ himself and the authors of the New Testament don’t really mention her?

Lastly, if I do not believe in praying for help from Mary, can I still be considered a Catholic? I would like to belong to the church, but I don’t want to be somewhere where I am not considered a brother in faith. I guess this is more important than anything else and the real reason why I have written this post (so if you would like to answer this part to save some effort, please feel free to do so )

Thanks for your help!

 

[VociMike]

To begin with, do you believe it is right or wrong to ask others to pray for you?

Do you believe it is right or wrong to pray for others?

As for your last question, you need to believe in the communion of saints to become Catholic, but you don’t need to pray to saints yourself if you don’t want to.

 

[FCEGM]

Hello.

I am truly interested in becoming a Catholic again, but there are a few things that I strongly disagree with. I would like to tackle one at a time; prayers to Mary being the first.

I would like to come to a better understanding of the following:

I understand that there is only one mediator between God and Man, namely; Jesus Christ. My belief is that there is no need for any sort of help from anyone else except Jesus. As Christ is in the Father and the Father is in Christ, so Christ is in us as we are in Christ. We have the privilege of being directly connected to the Father through Christ. Why would we need anyone else to pray for us? As far as I know, Christ suffered, even more so, as we suffer, giving Him commonality as fully human, yet fully God. He understands our suffering more than anyone. Why would I want to pray to Mary or the saints (my fellow sufferers and brothers in faith) when Christ is the only mediator and lives in me?

Welcome to CAF, Jeremy.

Christ teaches through His Church that Mary and all incorporated into Him within the Beatific Vision can know the needs of the brothers and sisters who request their prayers on their behalf. God has created us to be, first, in a union with Him through the Incarnate Son, but, secondly - and through our union with Him - in a union with all who are in Him in a communion of Divine Love. To deny Mary’s and the Saints’ participation in God’s calling us to this union is a denial of the essence of of what Communion with God is about in the first place.

Further, such a denial makes one unaware of the love of a child for his mother and the love of a mother for her child, for that is who she truly is - your mother, my mother, our mother in Christ. From my own experience, I know the closer I get to her, the more Our Lord comes into focus in my life. She sees in you/us the image of her Son and thus loves us tenderly with the same heart that held Our - and her - Savior in its care. Far from distracting us from love of the Most Holy Trinity, our unity within the Communion of Saints - and most especially with Mary! - only fosters greater attentiveness to living faithfully in His Light. If we choose to ignore her - even if we givr lip-service to the teaching of the Church in her regard - we are diminishing the potential of our spiritual lives to know Christ more deeply through attentiveness to the one who desires nothing more than to see us grow in His likeness.

As for Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, you will find many discussion threads on this subject that may help you acknowledge the truth of this belief of the Catholic - and Orthodox - Church. Also, here are some articles on the subject:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512sbs.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112frs.asp

bringyou.to/apologetics/a82.htm

catholic-legate.com/articles/ohbrother.html

catholic-legate.com/articles/jesusbros.html

catholic-legate.com/articles/maryvirgin.html

 

[Jeremy_Peter]

To begin with, do you believe it is right or wrong to ask others to pray for you?

Do you believe it is right or wrong to pray for others?

As for your last question, you need to believe in the communion of saints to become Catholic, but you don’t need to pray to saints yourself if you don’t want to.

I see what you mean. So now this topic leads me to a more relevant topic - the communion of saints.

I definitely believe that we are all one body in Christ, but as to whether we can pray for the dead; I don’t see any scripture supporting this. Purgatory is also a question for me as I have never really seen any scripture supporting this. Any help with this would be greatful.

Thank you!

 

[CSJ]

Hello.

I am truly interested in becoming a Catholic again, but there are a few things that I strongly disagree with. I would like to tackle one at a time; prayers to Mary being the first.

I would like to come to a better understanding of the following:

I understand that there is only one mediator between God and Man, namely; Jesus Christ. My belief is that there is no need for any sort of help from anyone else except Jesus. As Christ is in the Father and the Father is in Christ, so Christ is in us as we are in Christ. We have the privilege of being directly connected to the Father through Christ. Why would we need anyone else to pray for us? As far as I know, Christ suffered, even more so, as we suffer, giving Him commonality as fully human, yet fully God. He understands our suffering more than anyone. Why would I want to pray to Mary or the saints (my fellow sufferers and brothers in faith) when Christ is the only mediator and lives in me?

I agree that Mary had a special role as being a vessel that carried Christ in her womb, but she also was married to Joseph and had children after Jesus. She made love to her husband, had children, and continued life as most of us usually do. Did the twelve not suffer more than she, and for most of their lives? She was definitely favoured by God, but that was before Christ was born and brought the new message to His people. As Jesus was speaking to the crowd his mother asked for him. He made it clear that those that do the will of the Father are his mother, brother, and sister making it clear that she was just as those who do the will of the Father.

Please do not get me wrong. By no means am I saying that Mary is not important, but the emphasis that is given to her is superfluous. She is called the Virgin Mary, but was not a virgin after she had children with Joseph. Secondly, to assume that she was physically taken up to heaven is not backed by any scripture. As far as I know, even the twelve died and were buried without such a privilege. Throughout the bible, Christ doesn’t really even mention Mary. Why all the emphasis on her if Christ himself and the authors of the New Testament don’t really mention her?

Lastly, if I do not believe in praying for help from Mary, can I still be considered a Catholic? I would like to belong to the church, but I don’t want to be somewhere where I am not considered a brother in faith. I guess this is more important than anything else and the real reason why I have written this post (so if you would like to answer this part to save some effort, please feel free to do so )

Thanks for your help!

As a convert to the Catholic faith from Protestantism, I share in your dilemna. Marian doctrine presented a huge hurdle for me - primarily because of my misconceptions of Church teachings. Let me begin by saying that the Church does not believe that Mary should distract us from Jesus, but rather, she should point to Jesus.

As part of the Church Militant, I am overjoyed at the thought that the Church Triumphant is cheering me on - and praying for me. If I were in Heaven, I would pray unceasingly for my wife and children on earth. You are correct that there is one mediator between God and man, and that mediator is Jesus. The problem is that this verse is often taken out of context. Christ is the mediator of our redemption/salvation. Because the Saints in Heaven are fully united with Him, they intercede for us through Christ, with Christ, and in Christ. By asking the Saints to pray for us, we are not robbing Christ of any glory or honor - it is impossible because it is only by Christ that they can do so.

Regarding Mary’s perpetual virginity, I would kindly object to your opinion that she had sexual relations with Joseph and bore other children. I’ll begin with the issue of children. There is mention of Jesus’ mother and brothers seeking an audience with Christ, but the English translation loses part of the meaning. A better term would be kinsmen. In Aramaic, there is no separate word for aunt, uncle, or cousin. They simply called them brothers, sisters, etc. The same for Hebrew. Secondly, when Christ died on the cross, Jewish law stated that the care of parents went to the next oldest male child. To not do so would be a grievous insult and a slap in the face of that next child. Jesus left the care of his mother to John the apostle. As one of his last actions on earth, Jesus would not insult his family as such. Church tradition has always supported this and it is only in the last few hundred years that this was challenged. Even Martin Luther believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Jewish tradition also supports that Mary would have remained a virgin. For example, when someone would sleep with a king’s concubine, it was a sign of claim to the throne. The king would no longer have relations with that concubine, although she would remain under his roof if he so wished. Joseph would have viewed Mary as the “spouse” of the Holy Spirit seeing that Christ was supernaturally conceived within her. By having relations with Mary, Joseph would be making a claim to God’s kingship. I doubt he would do that.

I would recommend the following articles on catholic.com regarding Marian doctrine.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

You cannot partake of Christ’s body unless you say “Amen”. That Amen means that you believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and professes to be truth. We cannot accept only part of the Truth, we must accept it all. To reject part of the Truth is to reject it all.

I hope this helps. God Bless.
Claude

 

[VociMike]

I see what you mean. So now this topic leads me to a more relevant topic - the communion of saints.

I definitely believe that we are all one body in Christ, but as to whether we can pray for the dead; I don’t see any scripture supporting this. Purgatory is also a question for me as I have never really seen any scripture supporting this. Any help with this would be greatful.

Thank you!

Always a pleasure to help people with sincere questions.

EDIT - I thought you were asking about praying TO the dead, but I see you ask about praying FOR the dead. Is that correct? If so, ignore what I wrote below.

So, which of the following do you disagree with? No need to go over stuff you already accept.

1. It’s OK to ask others to pray for us.
2. It’s OK to pray for others.
3. The saints in heaven can hear our prayers (petitions) to them.
4. The saints in heaven can pray for us.
5. The saints in heaven would pray for us.

 

[Agripa]

I see what you mean. So now this topic leads me to a more relevant topic - the communion of saints.

I definitely believe that we are all one body in Christ, but as to whether we can pray for the dead; I don’t see any scripture supporting this. Purgatory is also a question for me as I have never really seen any scripture supporting this. Any help with this would be greatful.

Thank you!

Read about ancient roman history - it will enlighten you. Some argue much of the faith practices of the Catholic Church rose up from ancient worship practices of Rome - for instance, “saints” tended to replace all the myriad of old Roman gods, godesses and demi gods. Just as the RCC has a saint for nearly all parts of daily life (saints for selling things, finding things, saints for various professions, problems, even fertility (Gerard) etc.), so too did the Romans have gods for all occasions and needs. Did you know that a roman demi god was named Lucifer, god of the eastern star?

And as for Mary, the Church apolologists will sputter and sputter about not worshiping Mary, but again, in ancient Rome, worshiping virgin goddeses was commonplace and as the old tired body of the corrupted Roman empire sought the new vessel of Christianity in which to transform itself, it brought into christian worship many of the common faith practices of that age. In fact, the whole notion of nuns - consecrated virgins - came from Rome and from several of the Mediterainian cultures that had sects dedicated to the mortification of the flesh and denail of fleshly pursuits - all concepts not new to roman Catholicism.

 

[Pons]

Still not the same as Christian worship. No one is a god or goddess in Christianity except Jesus.

 

[Agripa]

Still not the same as Christian worship. No one is a god or goddess in Christianity except Jesus.

You know the old saying - “if it walks like a duck . . . . .”?? Point being, Catholics come very close to worshiping a female deity - or perhaps, if we want to split theological hairs, we come close to worshiping a feminine side of God.

And last I checked, Catholics certainly worship Jesus as part of a divine mysterious Trinity - God, Son and holy Spirit - and it cannot clearly be said they are one in the same or that Catholics worship only Jesus.

Not to be flippant, but I always thought the Holy Spirit got short shriff in the whole deal!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I am truly interested in becoming a Catholic again, but there are a few things that I strongly disagree with.

Why are people more concerned with what they themselves agree with rather what Jesus gave the Apsotles to teach?

If you or anyone is more interested in what Jesus wants then look to the early church. You will find intercessory prayer is very prevalent and fully supported as a Christian practice.

It is only because we have so many so called Christian churches today that teach things contrary to Jesus and Christian traditions. If you are a Protestant then to some degree this is true for you. Only Catholicism has maintained the Traditions that Jesus and the Apostles gave to Christianity in it’s fullness. So you either choose to follow Jesus fully and be Catholic or your reject Jesus to some degree and choose yourself over Jesus.

Shalom,

Jack

 

[Jeremy_Peter]

You know the old saying - “if it walks like a duck . . . . .”?? Point being, Catholics come very close to worshiping a female deity - or perhaps, if we want to split theological hairs, we come close to worshiping a feminine side of God.

And last I checked, Catholics certainly worship Jesus as part of a divine mysterious Trinity - God, Son and holy Spirit - and it cannot clearly be said they are one in the same or that Catholics worship only Jesus.

I have no doubt that Catholics worship Jesus only. It’s strange that in all the years I’ve been a Christian, I’ve never had a better feeling about Christians than I have about the Catholic Christians I know. They seem more open, friendly, and intelligent. I certainly, from experience with no offense intended, stay away from evangelical Christianity (I was part of that fearful culture for too long). I guess it’s the remnant of those things that I’ve been taught by the evangelical movement that make me apprehensive about freely accepting Catholicism and at the same time I am apprehensive about what I’ve been taught by the evangelical movement.

I must admit that the church has a really rocky past, but if it is not like that now, then why hold it against them? On the other hand, it is convenient to say that the church doctrine is infallible and then have terrible things like the inquisition happen and then blame it on the pope of that time. Then again, I am not familiar with the particulars of this period, so there may be something I am missing. I am in the process of reading up on the early Church to AD 500. This should shed some more light on the matter.

Sorry to go off topic, I get distracted easily. The main discussion here is about the Communion of Saints and what there is to back up the belief in Purgatory and praying for the dead. As far as I know, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. Can anyone speak to this?

 

[Axion]

The beliefs you espouse in your original post seem to be the standard modern evangelical protestant positions on Mary:

I understand that there is only one mediator between God and Man, namely; Jesus Christ.

You are quoting Timothy here - a standard protestant “proof-text”. You do realise it is part of a longer passage?
“I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy 2:1-5
The whole passage above clearly indicates that INTERCESSION (a mediation of prayer) is a worthy thing, which is not in contradiction to Christ’s mediation of salvation.

My belief is that there is no need for any sort of help from anyone else except Jesus. As Christ is in the Father and the Father is in Christ, so Christ is in us as we are in Christ. … Why would I want to pray to Mary or the saints (my fellow sufferers and brothers in faith) when Christ is the only mediator and lives in me?

So. Why pray for anyone else - or ask them to pray for you, if only prayer between the affected individual and Jesus is the only proper means?
There is a clue here:
James 5: 16-18 " …The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."

Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better. Most of us don’t know an Elijah personally. That is why we ask the Heavenly Saints to share in our prayers.

I agree that Mary had a special role as being a vessel that carried Christ in her womb, but she also was married to Joseph and had children after Jesus. She made love to her husband, had children, and continued life as most of us usually do.

A) Mary is NOT just a “vessel”. This dehumanises her and implies that she had no part in the birth of Jesus other than as an object. Is your mother a “vessel”? The way you set this down, it is as if you believe that Mary was like a glass jar who “carried Christ in her womb,” but He was no part of her, and her decision to obey God was not significant!
B) The recent protestant allegation that Mary had other children beside Jesus, does not stand up to close inspection - this is covered in many other threads on that subject on this forum. The notion is based on a false interpretation of an English translation of Greek words loosely translated from Aramaic.

Did the twelve not suffer more than she, and for most of their lives? She was definitely favoured by God, but that was before Christ was born and brought the new message to His people. As Jesus was speaking to the crowd his mother asked for him. He made it clear that those that do the will of the Father are his mother, brother, and sister making it clear that she was just as those who do the will of the Father.

The Twelve were not Mother of Jesus. The Twelve did not make the critical decision to obey God and bear His Son. And who does the will of the Father to the same extant as Mary?

She is called the Virgin Mary, but was not a virgin after she had children with Joseph.

You have no proof of this at all other than some modern protestant claims.

Secondly, to assume that she was physically taken up to heaven is not backed by any scripture. As far as I know, even the twelve died and were buried without such a privilege. Throughout the bible, Christ doesn’t really even mention Mary. Why all the emphasis on her if Christ himself and the authors of the New Testament don’t really mention her?

A) Scripture is not the WHOLE of Christian teaching. The Trinity is not explicitly taught in scripture. Jesus didn’t leave a Bible behind Him when He ascended. He left a living CHURCH to teach His Gospel. The teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, the right interpretation of scripture were all passed down to us through the Church He founded. The New Testament itself was only finally put together from Apostolic writings in 382 AD.
B) Scripture does in any case show Mary in heaven in Revelation Chapter 12.

Lastly, if I do not believe in praying for help from Mary, can I still be considered a Catholic? I would like to belong to the church, but I don’t want to be somewhere where I am not considered a brother in faith. I guess this is more important than anything else and the real reason why I have written this post (so if you would like to answer this part to save some effort, please feel free to do so )

No one HAS to pray to Mary for her intercession. Just as no-one HAS to ask their fellow Christians to pray for them to God. However some of the arguments you have made above are contrary to Catholic (and traditional Christian) belief. If you deny the Virginity of Mary and allege she had illegitimate children, or that Christ was not the only-begotten Son, it would cause problems. Similarly denying the teaching of the Church on the Assumption would mean that you are setting yourself, and the beliefs you have gained elsewhere above the teaching and tradition of the Church. By calling Mary a “vessel” I also sense that you may have picked up some unconventional beliefs about the Incarnation of Jesus. To be a Catholic (or any sort of mainstream Christian) you need to believe that Jesus was the true Son of Mary as well as of God, and that He took both his flesh and human nature from her.

 

[Jeremy_Peter]

Why are people more concerned with what they themselves agree with rather what Jesus gave the Apsotles to teach?

If you or anyone is more interested in what Jesus wants then look to the early church. You will find intercessory prayer is very prevalent and fully supported as a Christian practice.

It is only because we have so many so called Christian churches today that teach things contrary to Jesus and Christian traditions. If you are a Protestant then to some degree this is true for you. Only Catholicism has maintained the Traditions that Jesus and the Apostles gave to Christianity in it’s fullness. So you either choose to follow Jesus fully and be Catholic or your reject Jesus to some degree and choose yourself over Jesus.

Shalom,

Jack

The problem is that people interpret what Jesus and the twelve said. Here is the problem with the statement otherwise there would only be one world church instead of hundreds of denominations.

There are two things that I am truly interested in “Love God with all your heart, mind strength, and soul” and “love your neighbour as yourself”. It’s all the rest of the formalities that bog us down.

As to following Jesus and the twelve’s teachings, I have no issue with this. It’s the room for human interpretation that drives me to seek the truth.

 

[Jeremy_Peter]

The beliefs you espouse in your original post seem to be the standard modern evangelical protestant positions on Mary:

You are correct in saying so and this is the reason for joining this forum. I am trying to gain a more balanced perspective on these “stumbling blocks”.

Thank you for the post. You have introduced some new ideas. It seems the more I learn about the Catholic faith the more the pieces of the “puzzle” come together allowing me to see the bigger picture and enabling me to make a more informed decision.

As to the incarnation of Christ, I am quite clear on this issue. I am just boggled by the emphasis placed on Mary. I will keep searching and see where God leads me.

Just to clarify, I pray to Christ to intercede for others as well, hence the questions pertaining to Mary’s and the Saints’ intercession. I feel that Jesus is the “Elijah” that is interceding for me and others.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The problem is that people interpret what Jesus and the twelve said. Here is the problem with the statement** otherwise there would only be one world church** instead of hundreds of denominations.

There are two things that I am truly interested in “Love God with all your heart, mind strength, and soul” and “love your neighbour as yourself”. It’s all the rest of the formalities that bog us down.

As to following Jesus and the twelve’s teachings, I have no issue with this. It’s the room for human interpretation that drives me to seek the truth.

There is only ONE CHURCH.

The Catholic Church.

Be confirmed with reading the ECFs.

 

[VociMike]

She is called the Virgin Mary, but was not a virgin after she had children with Joseph.

Then how come she didn’t go live with any of those children after Jesus died? Scripture is very clear that she did not, but that she spent the rest of her days in the home of John, an unrelated male.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Jeremy Peter,

Write me at my email at nathanwagar@yahoo.com

I actually just finished writing a letter about these very issues to my father. The varying answers on a forum can get confusing as the thread wanders, but I will answer your questions on a point by point basis if you wish. I’ll check my email for your response

God Bless, Nathan

 

[Randy_Carson]

I understand that there is only one mediator between God and Man, namely; Jesus Christ.

Mary as Mediatrix Proved From Scripture

The Catholic Church recognizes Mary’s role in salvation history and invokes her under the title of Mediatrix. However, many people struggle to understand how Mary can have this role which they reserve for Christ alone, and they cite the following verse in support of their position:

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Is this the complete picture of what the Bible has to say about the role of mediator? Let’s take a closer look at some verses which provide a bigger perspective on this important topic.

Hebrews 7:24-25
because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Here we see that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for “those who come to God through him.” The role of the mediator and the intercessor are synonymous; a mediator lives to intercede for others.

All Christians are called to be mediators or intercessors for one another because we are all members of Christ’s body as we see from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:22-23
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Paul referred to himself as a co-laborer with Christ when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers.

Paul went further in his understanding of our responsibility as co-laborers with Christ when when he wrote:

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Is anything lacking from the perfect sacrifice that Christ offered upon the Cross? Paul clearly indicates that more is to be done and that he makes up what is “still lacking” in his own flesh.

2 Corinthians 1:6
If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation

Additionally, we know that we are called to share in the priesthood of all believers (cf. 1 Peter 2:5-9), and a priest, by definition, is called to be a mediator between God and men. Each of us is called to this role and to be a mediator or mediatrix for others before God.

Therefore, if we are all called to this role of mediator and intercessor for one another, how much more can this be said of Mary who said, “Yes” to God and brought Christ into the world?

Speaking of this, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus) of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

970"Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”

 

[Randy_Carson]

I agree that Mary had a special role as being a vessel that carried Christ in her womb, but she also was married to Joseph and had children after Jesus. She made love to her husband, had children, and continued life as most of us usually do.

Not so.

Articles on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

Mary: Ever Virgin
catholic.com/library/mary_ever_virgin.asp

**A Biblical Basis For Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? **
singinginthereign.blogspot.com/2008/03/biblical-basis-for-marys-perpetual.html

**How to Explain the Perpetual Virginity of Mary **
By Jason Evert
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007sbs.asp

Was Jesus an Only Child?
By Father Mateo
catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9001fea2.asp

 

[Randy_Carson]

I see what you mean. So now this topic leads me to a more relevant topic - the communion of saints.

I definitely believe that we are all one body in Christ, but as to whether we can pray for the dead; I don’t see any scripture supporting this. Purgatory is also a question for me as I have never really seen any scripture supporting this. Any help with this would be greatful.

Thank you!

The Doctrine of Purgatory Proved from Scripture

2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the following New Testament verses come into focus.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Obviously, there is no sin to forgive in heaven, and sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and judgment is permanent. Therefore, the “world to come” where sin can still be forgiven must be a third, distinct place.

Luke 12:42-48
The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

Notice that there are not two but three categories of servants in this parable: 1) the “wise and faithful manager” who is rewarded (heaven); 2) the unfaithful servant who knows his master’s will but does not do it and who is “cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers (hell)l; and 3) the one “who does not know and does things deserving punishment.” This final servant is beaten with “few blows” (purgatory).

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.