Mary as ever virgin

[NJada]

“…There are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.” (Mt 19:12).

I see no reason not to take 1 Corinthians 7 as universal to the whole age of the New Testament, read on its own terms, and in its historic context.

Marriage is only good, and there is nothing bad about it. A married person has no cause to regret their marriage, nor should anyone’s marriage be looked upon as anything less than God’s gift for their sanctification. All the grace needed for Christian perfection is offered to a married person.

“Whoever denigrates marriage also diminishes the glory of virginity. Whoever praises it [marriage] makes virginity more admirable and resplendent. What appears good only in comparison with evil would not be truly good. The most excellent good is something even better than what is admitted to be good.” (CCC 1620).

So, as multiple priests have told me, the celibate, consecrated life is objectively even more perfect.

http://www.religious-vocation.com/

“This doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy and of their superiority over the married state was, as we have already said, revealed by our Divine Redeemer and by the Apostle of the Gentiles; so too, it was solemnly defined as a dogma of divine faith by the holy council of Trent, and explained in the same way by all the holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church." (Ven. Pope Pius XII, Sacra Virginitas, 32).

 

[joeybaggz]

“This doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy and of their superiority over the married state was … revealed by our Divine Redeemer " (Ven. Pope Pius XII, Sacra Virginitas, 32).

Gospel reference, please.

 

[Crocus]

Mary’s purity is primarily her complete, unreserved unity with the will of God, shown in her “yes” to be the mother of the saviour.

 

[NJada]

I’m guessing this one:

“Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.” (Mt 19:11-12).

In any case, Pius XII is affirming what the Council of Trent declared as dogma (the Council’s statement can be found in the link from my last comment).

 

[joeybaggz]

I’m guessing this one:

“Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.” (Mt 19:11-12).

And that demonstrates the SUPERIORITY of virginity and celibacy over the married state …???. Effectively you are saying the Jesus says that the eunuch is superior to his own mother and Father (or step-father)? Kind of a stretch, don’t you think???
A woman in a sacred union of matrimony partners with God in creating new life. That alone makes marriage sacred. Yes, celibacy for the sake of service to God is certainly a great good, but the eunuch superior to the married woman and mother in a marriage. Come on, you’ve got to be kidding.

 

[NJada]

I was guessing this was the passage Pius XII was referring to, but not certain. If it isn’t this passage, then he is referring to something else. I think the emphasis of “eunuch” has to do with celibacy more than not being married. Mary and Joseph were both married and celibate.

But that’s only my guess and it might be a bad guess.

It doesn’t really matter though, because it is infallibly defined dogma that virginity is preferred to the married state–even though both are good and holy. It is not to say “the eunuch is superior to the married woman or married man” but “the state of celibacy is superior to the state of marriage”.

I’m just sharing with you what the Church teaches. Did you take a look at that link? You might find it helpful.

 

[joeybaggz]

It doesn’t really matter though, because it is infallibly defined dogma that virginity is preferred to the married state–even though both are good and holy. It is not to say “the eunuch is superior to the married woman or married man” but “the state of celibacy is superior to the state of marriage”.

I’m just sharing with you what the Church teaches. Did you take a look at that link? You might find it helpful.

Looked at the link. No wonder the churches are half full and 78% of those baptized in the Catholic religion have turned their back on the church. Do wonder however if the words of the Council and the popes were more directed to the clergy and the religious. If they were, then the leaders are tone deaf, if they were directed at Catholics in general, well, I stand by my 78% assertion.

 

[runningdude]

It is first and foremost an historical fact, passed along reliably, just not in scripture. The Gospels focus on Jesus, and the particular concerns of 1st Century Christians. The story of Mary was already widely known by the time the Gospels were written.

Secondly, why would Mary be surprised that an angel announced she would bear a son at all, unless she had vowed to live a life of chastity? She would have assumed the prophesy was for her first son with Joseph.

Thirdly, it was a gift, lest we have further doubt that Jesus was the son of God, rather than Joseph. If Mary and Joseph had other children, it would be a difficult claim that the first one was not an ordinary conception.

 

[Wesrock]

That is not what marriage is… two become one in sacrament… is two not better and more of an offering than one?

Offering the first fruits (the best) to God has always been esteemed. Offering to God bad things is not.

Putting aside marriage to more fully devote oneself to God is like offering God the best of the best. If you’re choosing virginity and it isn’t about being closer to God it seems there’d be no advantage there.

 

[NJada]

Okay, well I can’t force you to accept the teachings of the Catholic Faith. I have to go, but we can talk about it some more later if you want.

The Councils are aimed at defining truth and dispelling error, not telling people what they want to hear. Sometimes people are drawn to the straightforward truth, some are repelled by it.

Just sharing what the Church teaches, and you can either 1.) choose to accept her teachings, in simple faith, as the Holy Spirit infallibly defines them, or 2.) if you’re not satisfied with believing on her authority alone you can try to read up on it and seek to have an additional grasp of the reasons behind her teachings, or 3.) you can choose to believe whatever seems right to you. But I can only recommend the first two. I don’t judge.

 

[Vico]

Agathon:

joeybaggz:

OsculeturMeOsculo:

The Virginal life is higher than that of married people

Where did you get that from and in whose eyes?

The Apostle Paul.

It must be remembered that Paul was writing in a time when the thought Jesus was coming back, “IN THEIR LIFETIME” While Paul’s words are meant in a pious or complimentary way, they must be taken in light of the times in which they were written. I don’t think the operative thinking of the church in this day and age is that virginity is somewhat higher, more noble, or “better” than the married state. In fact, when I think of it, there is no sacrament of Virginity; there is a sacrament of Matrimony; one instituted by Christ himself.

There is a dogma:

In addition to the essential bliss of Heaven which springs from the immediate Vision of God, there is also an accidental blessedness, which proceeds from the natural knowledge and love of created things. (Sent. communis.)

According to the teaching of the Schoolmen, three classes of the blessed receive, in addition to the essential bliss (aurea, sc. corona), a special reward for the transcendental victory gained by them, called aureola: virgins for their victory over the flesh in accordance with Apoc. 14, 4; martyrs for their victory over the world in accordance with Mt. 5, 11 et seq.; teachers of the faith for their victory over the devil, the father of lies, according to Dn. 12, 3 and Mt. 5, 19.

– Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ludwig Ott), p. 478.

 

[godisgood77]

Secondly, why would Mary be surprised that an angel announced she would bear a son at all, unless she had vowed to live a life of chastity?

This is quite simple… first, she was talking to an angel… that is surprising to anyone and, two, she had not had relations with a man, so pregnancy would be surprising.

Oh and chastity simply means living properly according to one’s station in life… it does not mean virginity

 

[godisgood77]

Putting aside marriage to more fully devote oneself to God is like offering God the best of the best. If you’re choosing virginity and it isn’t about being closer to God it seems there’d be no advantage there.

We just disagree…marriage is not an easier path and it does not detract from one’s ability to devote oneself to God… it in fact strengthens it.

 

[joeybaggz]

Okay, well I can’t force you to accept the teachings of the Catholic Faith. I have to go, but we can talk about it some more later if you want.

The Councils are aimed at defining truth and dispelling error, not telling people what they want to hear. Sometimes people are drawn to the straightforward truth, some are repelled by it.

Just sharing what the Church teaches, and you can either 1.) choose to accept her teachings, in simple faith, as the Holy Spirit infallibly defines them, or 2.) if you’re not satisfied with believing on her authority alone you can try to read up on it and seek to have an additional grasp of the reasons behind her teachings, or 3.) you can choose to believe whatever seems right to you. But I can only recommend the first two. I don’t judge.

Interesting post. Condescending, but interesting.
If it dogma as you say, it stinks. The idea that it somehow considers the married life, those who bring into this world children, invest their lives in raising them, and somehow their life choice,is inferior to those who choose not to. Again, stinks.
The great thing about councils and “infallible” doctrines is that since they are human constructions, they can be nuanced, or expounded upon to create a better understanding. Personally, I believe the Church wanted to emphasize the beauty of the choice of forgoing marriage for the sake of “work in the vineyard,” not denigrate marriage.
And the scripture cited, Mt 19:11-12 doesn’t quite support this contention of superiority.
From the New American Bible: “I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.” His disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” He answered, “Not all can accept (this) word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.” Mt 19: 9-12
I don’t see the concept of superiority in that passage in any way. And I don’t think the Lord intended it that way. And if you are ranking the sacraments in order of importance (or magnificence) well, you have a right. I just don’t think the Lord sees it that way.
And I think this line of thinking that the clergy is superior to the (married) laity is one of the more common reasons 78% of baptized Roman Catholics have left the faith.

 

[joeybaggz]

As man was created sex was good, as we are redeemed sex is holy, but under the law, sex, menses, etc. made one unclean, See my article giving the scripture citations The Immaculate Conception
Grace and peace,
Bruce

Yea, Mosaic Law. Yes, God created sex and it is good. Then came the fall in Eden. Nothing to the contrary until Moses’ time and Mosaic law. That introduces the idea of uncleanliness. THEN came the redemption. Back to holy. To somehow equate Creation to the introduction of Mosaic Law, and considering an equivalency to exist, is disingenuous.

 

[Agathon]

And I think this line of thinking that the clergy is superior to the (married) laity is one of the more common reasons 78% of baptized Roman Catholics have left the faith.

There’s always a better part. People just have to come to terms with that.

 

[Crocus]

As man was created sex was good, as we are redeemed sex is holy, but under the law, sex, menses, etc. made one unclean, See my article

I read your argument. It’s unlike anything I’ve read before. It is clear you have researched the subject in great detail, arriving at conclusions of your own, that are in complete dissonance with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I have no more to say on it.
Grace and peace to you also.

 

[Bruce_Killian]

I read your argument. It’s unlike anything I’ve read before. It is clear you have researched the subject in great detail, arriving at conclusions of your own, that are in complete dissonance with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I have no more to say on it.

My Argument is in complete agreement with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you give your own “opinion”, don’t cite any actual reference or give any relevant verse or citation and then say you have no more to say on it, indicating your conclusion comes from your own understanding which you are not willing to consider adjusting.
Grace and peace,
Bruce

 

[Crocus]

My Argument is in complete agreement with the Catechism of the Catholic Church,

Absent Nihil Obstat on your essay, the onus is on you to show it is in agreement with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. However, I don’t invite you to attempt to defend it, as it may be considered to be in the category of private revelation, which is against forum rules.
Peace.

 

[Bruce_Killian]

Absent Nihil Obstat on your essay, the onus is on you to show it is in agreement with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. However, I don’t invite you to attempt to defend it, as it may be considered to be in the category of private revelation, which is against forum rules.

So, because I agree with the Church’s teaching that Mary remained ever virgin and I support that teaching clearly from the God breathed Scriptures, the onus is on me to show that I am in agreement with the catechism when you don’t even give a hint what you take issue with or where my supposed error is? In eternity we will know!
Grace and peace,
Bruce