Mary as ever virgin

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Sorry but Jesus himself confirmed the superiority of celibacy
Matthew 19:10
His disciples said to him,If such is the condition of the man with regard to the woman, it is not advantageous to marry. He answered them: All do not understand this word, but only those to whom it is given
to hear you (not only you, you are many in this situation) it is very clear that Jesus was right to say that not everyone can understand that marriage is no longer advantageous.
 
Suggest you go back and read Matthew 19: 8-11. Jesus is responding to the question of marriage and divorce in these verses. (We are using different Bibles. The KJV I am referencing, your cited verse is verse 11.)
This verse has noting to do with the superiority of marriage vs. celibacy, but rather options in light of divorce and adultery.
 
My great concern is not only my own salvation, but also the almost 80% of baptized Catholics who have left the church. I will take a stand against anything that causes that trend to continue
we must not falsify the truth so that people do not leave the Church. When Jesus gave his teachings on the bread of life, many left him, only a few disciples stayed with him, but seeing people leave he did not call them back to water down his speech.
Faced with the message of the Church that disturbs, we must make an act of humility and seek with righteousness to understand, and almost always God very quickly illuminates our intelligence and we understand!
 
Okay. Last post on this thread. I AM NOT arguing for falsifying the truth, or corrupting it to accommodate ourselves to the “way of the world.” I am simply saying that IMO one choice is life is not superior to another, in the eyes of God. I think the Church has in the past made statements that need to be nuanced a bit better so as not to leave an impression that God did not intend.
 
The verses before give the new teaching on marriage, and it is because of this teaching that the disciples have concluded that it is no longer advantageous to marry. If there was any spiritual benefit to getting married, Jesus would correct them. But Jesus have confirmed their point of view
 
And if it is no longer advantageous to get married, it logically means that staying single is more advantageous. It’s even obvious, we do not even need a dogma or a revelation to understand that. So, if you have reasonable objections against the superiority of sacred celibacy, let’s talk about, without passion
 
It isn’t your choice of words that worries me, but that you appear to disapprove of the Church’s dogma. And I was not thinking you had a problem with the virginity of our Blessed Mother. You don’t need to care about what I think: I don’t know your mind or heart, but we can know without ambiguity what the Church thinks.

I can understand if you don’t like the use of the word “superior” and the impression it gives, but perhaps try to get the sense of what it actually means and focus on that, which is what my various quotes have addressed. It isn’t uncommon to mistake straightforward statements as arrogant: for example: “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ,” (1 Cor 11:1), which would seem arrogant coming from almost anyone else.
You state this teaching is an infallible doctrine of the church. I need to know where it was proclaimed “from the Chair of Peter.”
Ex cathedra statements are not the only infallible statements.
Trent was the nineteenth ecumenical council. Ecumenical councils are infallible in virtue of the Pope’s authority. Disciplinary and pastoral statements are not necessarily infallible, but a dogma is indicated by the formula, “If anyone says . . . let him be anathema” (which is a “Canon” as in Canon X of Trent, which we have been discussing).
An ecumenical or general, as distinguished from a particular or provincial council, is an assembly of bishops which juridically represents the universal Church as hierarchically constituted by Christ; and, since the primacy of Peter and of his successor, the pope, is an essential feature in the hierarchical constitution of the Church, it follows that there can be no such thing as an ecumenical council independent of, or in opposition to, the pope. No body can perform a strictly corporate function validly without the consent and cooperation of its head. . . .
That an ecumenical council which satisfies the conditions above stated is an organ of infallibility will not be denied by anyone who admits that the Church is endowed with infallible doctrinal authority. . . .
(Infallibility | Catholic Answers)
The “anathema” formula distinguishes an infallible statement of dogma from a disciplinary statement: Anathema | Catholic Answers
Pius was 80 or so years ago, Trent was 16th century. At those times, it was held that the celibate life was superior to the married state. Arrogant, yes, but the thinking of the times.
Why is this relevant when we’re talking about dogma?
How confident are you of that? And based on what?

Also, as I said, I don’t know whether or not Matthew 19 is even relevant. Whether it is that or another verse, the Church has reached the conclusion she did at Trent, and if our judgment contradicts it, we trust her’s instead.

And Canon X did not emphasize. It is extremely unambiguous and straightforward. Do you have any thoughts on how it might be interpreted to allow for the possibility that celibacy and marriage are equal after all? (Again, this is not talking about the equality of the persons themselves.)
 
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Perhaps a future Council will expand on this dogma for clarity and additional detail, but I cannot see how it could go to teach that celibacy and marriage are equal without making a total contradiction.

Let God’s Providence take care of the nuances. Whatever our state in life, we be simply faithful to His teachings and He takes care of the rest. As St. Mother Teresa said, “God has not called me to be successful; He has called me to be faithful.”
 
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If there were no spiritual benefit to marriage for anyone, it would not be a sacrament. Those who can accept a life of celibacy are blessed for it, but those who cannot do well to marry.
 
God was in her womb.

God. Was. In. Her. Womb.

Ponder that. Think on how Jews viewed God’s presence on the Ark of the Covenant or in the Holy of Holies. How much reverence and attention such spaces were given because those were where God dwelled. How much concern there was if other people failed to show such reverence by entering the space when it had been set aside for God.

God dwelled more fully in her womb than he did in those places. Her womb was set apart for God’s dwelling. It was from here He took flesh. Appreciate that as a righteous first century Jew such as Saint Joseph would have. What it says about his respect for her and for God. There are important Christological implications to her perpetual virginity.
I would agree that there are Christological implications to Mary’s virginity before the birth of Christ, but I do not see what Christological implications can be maintained by her Perpetual Virginity, particularly as a married Jewish woman. There is a difference between the two.
 
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Wesrock:
God was in her womb.

God. Was. In. Her. Womb.

Ponder that. Think on how Jews viewed God’s presence on the Ark of the Covenant or in the Holy of Holies. How much reverence and attention such spaces were given because those were where God dwelled. How much concern there was if other people failed to show such reverence by entering the space when it had been set aside for God.

God dwelled more fully in her womb than he did in those places. Her womb was set apart for God’s dwelling. It was from here He took flesh. Appreciate that as a righteous first century Jew such as Saint Joseph would have. What it says about his respect for her and for God. There are important Christological implications to her perpetual virginity.
I would agree that there are Christological implications to Mary’s virginity before the birth of Christ, but I do not see what Christological implications can be maintained by her Perpetual Virginity, particularly as a married Jewish woman. There is a difference between the two.
I think you’re desensitized to the concept of the Incarnation.
 
I think you’re desensitized to the concept of the Incarnation.
No sir. I hold the incarnation of Christ in the highest reverence. Let’s put it this way, I have memorized John 1 in Greek because I love the language that John uses to describe the incarnation. I just do not see any scriptural support for the perpetual virginity of Mary, particularly when all four gospels contradict this doctrine. The perpetual virginity of Mary does not add a thing to the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Mary was certainly a virgin at the time that Christ was conceived. The scriptures attest to this, and we would agree on this point. The question is whether she remained so perpetually. Through natural childbirth this would have been lost in a clinical sense. In addition, Matthew is pretty clear that after Mary’s purification, Joseph knew his wife (the biblical euphemism for sex). If anything, the concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary actually detracts from the incarnation of Christ by assuming an almost gnostic view of Christ’s birth. And in point of fact, many believe, and have good reason to do so, that the Protoevangelium of James, from which the doctrine gets its genesis, was tinged by gnostic beliefs and traditions.
 
In fact, I spoke of the spiritual benefits of marriage in relation to celibacy, not absolute benefits.

Now concerning the fact that marriage is a sacrament. In some way, A sacrament can be view as a remedy, so when you need a sacrament it means you have an illness, a weakness, or you’ve even died, and you’re looking for Jesus in the sacrament, to get health or to get life or to get strength. Thus confession is necessary for those who have a mortal disease in the soul, the Eucharist for those who have benign diseases or imperfections in the soul, and so on.
The sacrament of marriage is a remedy for those who do not wish to overcome concupiscence by mortification. Here concupiscence must be taken in its broad sense, ie desire, the will to find happiness in the creatures.
To need a remedy is a sign that one is sick or one is weak, and when one is ill or weak,one is not in an advantageous state. So whoever needs the sacrament of marriage is not in an advantageous state, compared to the one who does not need it
 
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I don’t know if the Blessed Virgin remained a virgin all her life or if she had other children by Joseph. And frankly, I don’t see how it matters. At the end of the day, all of our theology about “Ark of the Covenant” and whether human children could be where God had been are human attempts to understand something that is perhaps beyond our understanding. We can try to make more or less educated guesses, but we still will never know for certain in this world. More importantly, whatever happened was God’s will. I’m okay with that.

As for virginity always being a higher calling, I’m not sure about that either. Obviously most people don’t have that calling, and good thing too, or the Church wouldn’t be here now. Equally obvious is the fact that it’s a very beautiful thing to give one’s self to God in this way. On the other hand, the Sacrament of Marriage isn’t some kind of cure for the spiritually ailing or weak. Marriage wasn’t even declared a sacrament until the 12th century. And then, there is no evidence that anyone thought of it as a cure for anything.

While the letters of Paul are timeless, he did also write for a certain people at a certain time. Like many people today, his readers could face persecution at any time. A married Christian had a lot to lose, on top of the division of his time and attention between his family and God.

All this being said, isn’t it possible that both the vocation to celibacy and the vocation to marriage are gifts from God, and that the higher vocation is the one which is God’s will for that individual?
 
The will of God is not a mystery, the will of God is known, it is clearly written in his teachings.
God wants us to be perfect, and in matters of chastity perfection is in perpetual continence. One who does not want to live in perpetual continence has made his choice, which is not a bad choice, but which is not perfect. There are even some examples of some married saints who have at one point decided to live perpetually in continence for the love of God, they have made the choice of perfection. If we decide not to choose perfection in chastity, it is our own choice and not the will of God.
 
I never said God’s will is a mystery. I only said His will in this particular situation is not something He has seen fit to make completely clear to us. As for celibacy, even Paul never said it was the perfect choice for everyone. He only said it was a good choice, especially in the difficult situation in which his readers found themselves.
 
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Because if Mary was no longer a Virgin during Jesus’ ministry it would be hard to prove he was born of a Virgin.
 
I’m not dismissing that there are more vocations than that of celibacy; I purposely worded it in such a way to demonstrate that offering everything to God, though not seen in great esteem in the late centuries, if far a better offering than, yes, even that of offered in the Sacramental Marriage.

Perhaps I reacted too strongly to what seemed dismissive of such great offering practiced throughout the centuries and the only Vocation which Jesus Himself termed it as a Gift from Heaven.

…we can see this “virgin” design weaved right into the Salvation Narrative: Virgin, Virgin Conception, Virgin Birth, Virgin State (Jesus)… even His Ushering into the Passion and Death: “colt, never ridden” and “a new tomb.”

While it is true that Scriptures do not include everything, we can surmised, as with Moses’ hallowed ground, that these specific details about “virginity” are deemed important by God.

Yes, we are to offer to God our Gifts from the place where we are found (single, married, divorced, widowed) but both the single (never married) and the widowed (never remarried) can offer to God more of themselves–chastity, even in the Vocation of Marriage, is far a greater Gift–no matter how much our present culture wants to dismiss its importance (by the way, I suspect that this is one, if not the, missing link between the fulfillment of the Sacramental Marriage and the embracing of adultery, divorce and remarriage, and fornication).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
No. my point is simply that interpretation and understanding of Paul’s words and how they apply to a present day understanding needs to be seen in the light of the time they were written.
The problem is that you are reading into the discipline what is not actually the reason why the discipline existed/was introduced.

So your eisegesis, applied to the rest of the New Testament Writings, would make these Writings as pliable as the “virgin” argument–we can then engage everything from the perspective of “false expectation.”
Edited to add. I find the idea of inspiration by the Holy Spirit to be a reference that is used in a utilitarian manner. We Catholics often attempt to explain inconsistencies in the Scripture that it is an inspired book written by fallible men. Ergo, there are discrepancies in its interpretation. Then when someone wants to defend a particular personal idea, they fall back on it is “inspired” by the Holy Spirit therefore it is absolutely true as written in 70 A.D. and is true and unassailable doctrine for everyday since. Which one is it. Interpretation based on historical understanding or the bible is perfect and absolutely factual.
Hmmmm … protestants have a word or two for that. Sola Scriptura.
Eloquently put–yet, it misses the hole point!

If there’s “Inspiration of the Holy Spirit” only when you say it is… well then your comments above are right on target.

Yet, I am not singling out one portion of Scriptures as “Inspiration” while dismissing that/those which I reject (I don’t reject any, just for your personal edification).

As for interpretation, well, that’s exactly what you’ve done. Not only that but you are appealing to a “secret” knowledge as you’ve determined for St. Paul and the other Apostles that their Teaching was as malleable gold; you are suggesting that Apostolic Teaching would, as today’s “prophets” and “teachers” change according to the “discovered”/adopted secular/scientific tools and models.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
And that demonstrates the SUPERIORITY of virginity and celibacy over the married state …???. Effectively you are saying the Jesus says that the eunuch is superior to his own mother and Father (or step-father)? Kind of a stretch, don’t you think???
Actually, Jesus is saying that there are those who man will vilely debase and deform, that there are those who, due to some accidental natural processie, are born unable to procreate, and that there are people who willfully chose to remain so (celibate and chaste), as a Gift from God that they embrace to offer themselves to God in such state.

Clearly, chastity is the means for all, single and married, to offer themselves to God (and the husband to the wife and vice versa). While no one dismisses anyone’s offering, the celibate and chaste state offers the greatest means to Give to God all of our being, as limited as it is.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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