Mary as ever virgin

[jcrichton]

Looked at the link. No wonder the churches are half full and 78% of those baptized in the Catholic religion have turned their back on the church.

Actually, the parishes are empty and “Catholics” and other “Christians” fall to their own understanding and devices because of man’s capricious nature and lustfulness:

19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. (St. John 3)

Luther was not the first nor the last who took it upon himself to shape his own path into Salvation; yet, as Jesus stated, if they did not heed His Word, they would not heed His Servants/Apostles/the Church.

In my estimation, here’s the most telling passage in Scriptures that man’s capricious nature and lusts can blind him to the Truth, as even Jesus’ own Apostles find it hard to follow His Command:

10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry. (St. Matthew 19)

Jesus’ Tough position on marriage, divorce, and remarriage hits hard–too hard to man’s capricious nature and desires; His Disciples quickly surmise that since the Sacrament is so demanding it would be better not to marry.

This temerity of the heart and mind is the reason why the pews are empty and, I would dare add, also the reason why the “feel-good theology” is creeping into Catholicism right into the pulpit.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Putting aside marriage to more fully devote oneself to God is like offering God the best of the best. If you’re choosing virginity and it isn’t about being closer to God it seems there’d be no advantage there.

…and a chaste marriage can offer to God the fruits of chastity, loyalty, and fidelity–not to mention the benefits that it brings to the married couple!

We are not dismissing our offerings to God; we are simply acknowledging that a celibate and chaste life is greatly esteemed by God; yet, as Jesus pointed out, it is a Gift from God that only those who embrace it as a Vocation can engage it–the rest of us must seek to serve God, in a less God-centered chaste way.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

We just disagree…marriage is not an easier path and it does not detract from one’s ability to devote oneself to God… it in fact strengthens it.

I think that you are missing the point on two counts:

1. you cannot give God your all when you already have given it to someone else (or something else),
   b) as a married person your time, attention, energies, financials are divided–it is the reason why so many “married” couple are only represented by the mother–which sets a module for the children as males imitate their absentee fathers and rebel against going to Mass as soon as in their early puberty.

Consider too this “marital impediment” when a comparison of the Easter Priesthood and Western Priesthood is made: in the East the Priests could not afford the flexibility and mobility of those in the West–their service was “family” centered/anchored as they would have to travel with their wives and children if they would be needed in different regions near their parish or remote geographical locations.

The reality is that there exist impediments to how we can offer the best and the most to God; yet, this does not diminish our responsibility to offer the most or best we can to God (yeah, it’s complex and simple).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yea, Mosaic Law. Yes, God created sex and it is good. Then came the fall in Eden. Nothing to the contrary until Moses’ time and Mosaic law. That introduces the idea of uncleanliness. THEN came the redemption. Back to holy. To somehow equate Creation to the introduction of Mosaic Law, and considering an equivalency to exist, is disingenuous.

…actually, you are reading to it, aren’t you?

What is the first thing that is Revealed in Genesis, right after the disobedience?

Remember now?

They hid!

Why?

‘cause we were naked!’ (paraphrased)

…then we have the various situations, including the curse of seeing the nakedness of parents…

Mosaic Law, as you’ve pointed out, only set to code what was already in existence.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Not all can endure such self-denial, and these ought to marry, lest they sin.

Exactly why Jesus stated that that Gift from Heaven was meant for only those who could endure/embrace it.

He did not dismiss the Sanctity of the Sacrament of Matrimony, He simply pointed out that to remain celibate was a Gift that most could not easily endure/offer and that it was in response to a Heavenly Call.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

My point is that far too many baptized Catholics turn their back on the church because of the constant denigration of marriage and its physical component

NOT!

They turn from the Church because they want the freedom of adultery, contraception, divorce and remarriage, fornication, abortion, and homosexuality (just to mention the most appealing lures of non-Catholic religions and secularism).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Reading the passage in Matthew from both the original KJV and the NAB, they are remarkable similar. There is no other passage from Jesus himself that would support the idea that virginity is superior to the married life.
If that is the case, then it has to be something the Church (and its celibate leaders) made up. Not based on the Lord’s words recorded in scripture. If it is a man made doctrine, it is subject to change. I am not arguing for the elimination of or an admission of error on the part of the Church, I simply believe that the emphasis is not correct. That God does not “rank” his sacraments, and that both are equal in the eyes of God.

Now you are embracing Jehovah Witnesses rhythm–they make notes of ‘how many times’ “xyz.”

How many times does Jesus speak about being lifted up as the brazen serpent? How many times is Introduced as the Lamb of God? How many times does Jesus Preach that God is Spirit? How many times does Jesus transfer the Old Covenant’s Command on blasphemy against Yahweh God to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, How many times does Jesus declare that He is the Resurrection and the Life, the Bread of Life, the Fountain of the Water of Life, being Born again?..

…by your eisegesis all of the above should be seen as suspect since they occurred only once.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[godisgood77]

you cannot give God your all when you already have given it to someone else (or something else),

Being married is giving yourself to God… two becoming one in sacrament in self giving love is exactly that …you can give yourself entirely to God in everything you do…being a priest does not clear the decks of impediments … I know many priests who are distracted by many things

b) as a married person your time, attention, energies, financials are divided–it is the reason why so many “married” couple are only represented by the mother–which sets a module for the children as males imitate their absentee fathers and rebel against going to Mass as soon as in their early puberty.

Not if you’re doing it right… all things, all of our actions should be ordered to God…being married does not change that

 

[jcrichton]

What, my concern that the majority of living baptized Catholics have turned their back on the RCC?

No. The conclusions and connections that you make; man is like water he flows towards the path of least resistance–a “Christian” doctrine that declares everything permissible will appeal to all those who are seeking to serve God in their own measures and understandings. Just look at those 70+% that you continue to site, how many of them are not engaged in contraception, adultery, fornication, homosexuality/support of it, abortion, pornography, and a host of other behavior that is immoral and illicit?

That’s the conclusion you should be bearing on–yet, you simply claim that harsh doctrinal stance keeps the good-will people from seeking God in the Catholic Church.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Cathoholic]

Fox . . .

Why is this a big thing whether or not Mary had sex after she gave birth to Jesus? What difference does it make? . . .

.

“BECAUSE the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it”. (St. Augustine)

.

Old Testament Prophecy Fulfilled

Another way to look at this (there are many) and have a better understanding of the need of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . . . .

Jesus IS the fulfillment of the Temple. (That’s why WE are described as “living stones” built into this Temple, etc.)

Now let’s look at prophecy . . . .

Prophecy concerning not the Temple . . . but one of the consecrated (“consecration” means a TOTAL DEDICATION to a given purpose, in this case a religious purpose) GATES or entryways and exitways for the Temple.

.

EZEKIEL 44:1-2 1 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and
it was shut.
2 And he said to me,
"This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for
the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.

.

What or WHO is “the Lord”?

Well obviously it is Jesus.

WHAT or WHO is this “gate” that Jesus “enters” into the world from?

Remember. It is not just a “gate” but a place of “sanctuary” for Jesus.

Can you think of a place Jesus had “sanctuary” for nine months in?

Yes. The womb of Mary. And "Blessed is the fruit of Mary’s womb . . . Jesus!

Now let’s go to a couple of the Fathers from the late 300’s and early 400’s A.D. and see if THEY saw things this way too.

Here are a couple of beautiful passages from Sts. Ambrose and Augustine confirming this 2000 year-old Catholic doctrine (St. Ambrose from the late 300’s A.D. and St. Augustine from the early 400’s A.D.)

.

ST. AMBROSE "Who is this gate (Ezekiel 44:1-4), if not Mary? Is it not closed because she is a virgin?
Mary is the gate through which Christ entered this world, when He was brought
forth in the virginal birth and the manner of His birth did not break the seals of virginity."
- Saint Ambrose of Milan (ca AD 390)

.

ST. AUGUSTINE "It is written (Ezekiel 44, 2): ‘This gate shall be shut,
it shall not be opened, and
no man shall pass through it.
BECAUSE
the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it…’
What means this closed gate in the house of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate?
What does it mean that ‘no man shall pass through it,’ save that Joseph shall NOT know her? And what is this - ‘The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it,’ except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and
that the Lord of Angels shall be born of her?
And what means this - ‘It shall be SHUT for EVERMORE,’ but that
Mary is a Virgin before His birth, a Virgin in His birth, and a Virgin after His birth."
- Saint Augustine (ca AD 430)

(Parenthetical and bold addition and all caps mine)

 

[ShowersofRoses]

> My point is that far too many baptized Catholics turn their back on the church because of the constant denigration of marriage and its physical component

NOT!

They turn from the Church because they want the freedom of adultery, contraception, divorce and remarriage, fornication, abortion, and homosexuality (just to mention the most appealing lures of non-Catholic religions and secularism).

I agree with this completely. People don’t leave the church because they feel marriage is denigrated. They leave because they don’t want to be held to such a high standard. They want the freedom to commit sin without feeling guilty about it. People also leave because they haven’t had good faith formation and never had a personal relationship with God in the first place. There are many reasons they leave, but I really don’t see “my marriage feels denigrated” as an issue at all. More like, “I want to use birth control and I don’t care what the priest says.”

 

[jcrichton]

And it is that impression I believe that is a contributing factor in so many people leaving the church because they can not live up to an expectation that is subliminally, and in the case of many of the posts on this thread, factually stated.

I can agree with you that in times past Priestly Vocation was presented as the highest Calling; I would argue that both the Clergy (Nuns included) and the Laity held celibacy and chastity as an important Vocational trait that is highly pleasing to God–as with everything their are those who would take zealously to these discipline.

Yet, your argument is flawed as I have witness numerous people rejecting the Sanctity of the Sacrament of Matrimony as much as secularist reject even civil matrimony.

Hollowood has injected its morality into the culture as its values have been upheld and adopted by both religious and non-religious. People talk about their freedoms and right away and in contrast to the “demands” of the Church as a badge of courage and as a proof of their alienable rights; this is what is at the core of rejection of the Church’s Authority.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Suggest you go back and read Matthew 19: 8-11. Jesus is responding to the question of marriage and divorce in these verses. (We are using different Bibles. The KJV I am referencing, your cited verse is verse 11.)
This verse has noting to do with the superiority of marriage vs. celibacy, but rather options in light of divorce and adultery.

No. Jesus is answering His Disciples’ rejection of the mandates of the Sacrament–they play with the idea of better remain unmarried (perhaps as with many today, enjoying the sex but not the responsibility that goes along with the Sacrament).

Celibacy, Jesus prompts, is a Gift from Heaven that not many are willing/able to embrace.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

If there were no spiritual benefit to marriage for anyone, it would not be a sacrament. Those who can accept a life of celibacy are blessed for it, but those who cannot do well to marry.

Yet, it was not to the Sacrament that the Disciples were speaking to; rather, it was to the facility of divorcing the wife (which in Jewish custom/law only the man is/was able to do); Jesus floors this “divorce” advantage, so me, ‘eyeing the young thing across my farm/street/business begin to think why then should I marry, if I can’t put away (divorce) my betrothed when I deem it necessary?’

The Sacrament is Holy; but not the highest form of offering.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I would agree that there are Christological implications to Mary’s virginity before the birth of Christ, but I do not see what Christological implications can be maintained by her Perpetual Virginity, particularly as a married Jewish woman. There is a difference between the two.

It goes to what was taking place.

Why did St. John not get married or Jesus or St. Paul or any other of the Apostles that chose to remain celibate?

Why did Ann remained unmarried after her husband died and gave herself to the service at the Temple?

Why did Elizabeth and Zachariah gave up their child, even though they lived nearly a century without the blessings of one?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

particularly when all four gospels contradict this doctrine

Really, there are accounts of Jesus growing up in a large family? What happened when He was 12, how many of his siblings accompany the family? What of His giving away His mom–did all His blood brothers and sisters threatened that they would disown the Virgin at His death?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Being married is giving yourself to God… two becoming one in sacrament in self giving love is exactly that …you can give yourself entirely to God in everything you do…being a priest does not clear the decks of impediments … I know many priests who are distracted by many things

So a Priest could not travel to the end of the world to serve people but a family would? (just to put a hardship in its place)

Not if you’re doing it right… all things, all of our actions should be ordered to God…being married does not change that

Priest are not more holy than others; that’s not the argument. Yet, most married people do not have the time and the money to offer to God what a person who has given his/herself to God in Ministry can.

It is an impossibility for a man/woman to give up the family to serve God for years at a time both at home and abroad. Unless the person is extremely wealthy and extremely devote he/she will always have to offer to God from what is left over.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I really don’t see “my marriage feels denigrated” as an issue at all. More like, “I want to use birth control and I don’t care what the priest says.”

Exactly!

Here’s a little experience I had… I met a young woman who appeared very devote; she would come to the local parish and embrace the Mass fully; she would stay after Mass in prayer and would often come early to engage in prayer before Mass.

We became acquainted. Yet, one day the issue of homosexuality was engaged; I attempted to explain that the Church cannot condone homosexuality because it is an abomination/immorality to God… though she was not homosexual herself, she was seeking my acceptance of someone who she knew to be in a homosexual relationship–I never saw her again after that interchange.

Sadly, people have gotten the impression that the Church can somehow declare holy what society holds as “correct” or “just.” When their ideals are not met they are quick to exit, as with St. John 6.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Cathoholic]

Sean77 . . . .

.

I just do not see any scriptural support for the perpetual virginity of Mary, particularly when all four gospels contradict this doctrine.

.

Sean77. There is no contradiction anywhere in Scripture of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

If you would like, I would be happy to have this discussion with you.

I just don’t want to do all the proverbial “homework” here if you are not following this thread, or if you do not want to follow up on your premise (your premise being that “all four gospels contradict” the doctrine of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Let me know either way please.

Thanks and God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

Matthew did not say that Joseph knew Mary only that he did not know her while Christ was still in her womb.