Mary as Immaculate Conception

[guanophore]

Sure if they are not asking her for anything, or want anything from God through her.

Wow. Do you apply this same standard to your earthly loved ones and friends?

Don’t you have a pastor, or a teacher in your ecclesial community?

Does not the Pastor bring the word of God to you in preaching and prayer?

I must point out to you that the WORD of GOD is Jesus Christ. He is refered to as the WORD…He was made flesh and dwelt among us…So don’t tell me in the New Testement that it has changed its meaning. It has not. GODS WORD DOES NOT CHANGE. and neither does the Meaning of THE WORD of Jesus.

Leslie, you are right, the Word of God does not change, but there are as many perceptions of it as there are belly buttons. Don’t you remember what they answered when He asked “who to people say that I am”?

What we are objecting to are your erroneous perceptions of the Scripture, not the Word of God itself.

 

[guanophore]

I’m sorry I must have misunderstood the verse…He said this to John, He at no time brought anyone else into it…Oh I see you are adding to the Bible again. Sorry my bad.

How do you know that the disciple at the foot of the cross was John? How do you know that gospel was written by John?

The Catholic Church added 27 entire books to the Bible. IT is called the New Testament.

 

[guanophore]

Oh my goodness…the “thee” means YOU…Please.

Very good Leslie.

And to whom are the prayers directed in these passages, and what does it mean to “pray” the way it is used here?

I pray for people, I use their name…For example…Father, I ask You to bless Randy and his family as only You are able to do. I pray that if there are any needs that they need met You meet them. I askYou to hold them in Your care until that day, and reveal Yourself in a real and personal way…In Jesus name I pray…Amen That is how I pray and that is my prayer for you.

I am glad you are fervent in your intercessions. Leslie. When you “ask” this is another way of say “pray”. We ask Mary for her prayers.

 

[guanophore]

Mary suffered as any mother that is losing a child, and in such a horrific manner…but she had no part of the redemption picture. Any mother that has lost a child can empethize with her, but there is no reason to “honor” her. Weep with her, feel for her lose, but this does not bring honor. Only thing I disagree with. The rest was great.

It is amazing how anyone could say that Mary had “no part of the redemption picture”.

Don’t you realize that the Christ could have appeared fully grown upon the earth if He chose? She bore him, fed Him at her breast, changed His diapers, cleaned his skinned knees, fed him, made His clothes, and taught Him about God, His Father.

What prevents you from honoring her? Why do you disobey the Scriptures?

Weeping and grieving with a loved one most certainly does honor them, and honors their loss.

 

[Louemma]

Are you equating the purpose of Kari Jobe’s ‘message’ in a video and ‘song’ to that of our Lord’s words in Sacred Scripture?

no
However we know there are those who don’t read scripture and this is how some who are lost may hear the good news.
I’m through discussing this with you because to pick at and disagree over a song that is about the lord is a waste of our time.If this music offends you then you probably shouldn’t listen to it.If you find a link and you don’t like the song,click off so then you will not have to listen to a worship song that you find offensive.

 

[guanophore]

A question Randy. What is the Aramaic equivilent? I do not know but do you? The angel did not speak in Greek to her. I can be convinced of this dogma (not that it is your goal) but a careful parsing of a translation will not do it for me. Thanks.

We no longer have the original manuscripts. Luke was the gospel writer that spent the most time with Mary, as he and Paul were in Ephesus for a long time where she lived with John. The reason Luke has more detailed birth stories is because he had access to the primary source and character in the story. We believe that Mary accurately reported to Luke what the angel told her.

The Church did not appreciate the importance of what happened for several centuries, when heresies arose about the nature of Christ. Gnosticism and Arianism were a strong challenge to the Gospel committed to Luke.

 

[guanophore]

Of course it matters because there is a constant appeal to Aramaic when it comes to the brothers. As far as Matthew originally being in Aramaic; that COULD be the case but that is far from accepted.

There is appeal to this because the drivel about Jesus’ siblings is a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. Catholics dont’ need to “prove” doctrine from scripture, because we receive the doctrine from the Apostles. We understand that the Scripture reflects our faith, but is not the Source of it. Protestants, having been separated from the Apostolic Succession during the Reformation, have become disconnected from the Sourceo of the faith. They have done their best to reconstruct the faith from the Scriptures, but it is a truncated and errant extrapolation.

Do you deny the testimony of the historical record about the book of Matthew? If you can’t accept that, how can you accept the canon at all?

Surely you know that. Is is the official position that Matthew was written in Aramaic? Does the Catholic version of the Matthew, whatever that may be, come from a Aramaic copy?

Yes, Jerome had the Aramaic, and worked from it.

But IF Matthew was written in Aramaic, wouldn't the vast majority of quotes from the Hebrew scriptures be from the Hebrew text and not the LXX?

The Galileans, as well as those Jews scattered abroad in the diaspora, used the Septuagint.

 I also would point out that your particular position makes it necessary for Matthew to be first; which may or may not be the case.

I am not sure why you think this is the case.

I don’t think it is possible to glean the scriptures for the Marian doctrines. References can be found there, but the bulk of the basis of them comes out of Sacred Tradition. I think trying to “prove” it from scripture is a fruitless exercise, though I do commend Randy for his efforts. As accurate are the points he makes, they are not likely to be accepted in the face of the level of denial found in our separated brethren. I think much stronger evidence exists in the beliefs and practices of the Church.

 

[guanophore]

“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord and my spirit exults in GOD MY SAVIOR” (Luke 1:47).

Yes, of course! this is written there because it is a Catholic doctrine.

There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic.

The pope has declared Mary co-redemptive and mediatrix.

Really? When and where was this? Can you post a link? What kind of “declaration” was it?

This is unscriptual and puts Mary on the cross with Jesus.

It seems that you have seriously misunderstood the doctrine.

No one but Jesus can mediate salvation for mankind, and no one else could die for our sins. Where do you get these strange ideas?

Mary brought Jesus into the world, and He brought salvation to mankind. She was His handmaiden. She cooperated with His grace, becoming part of His great plan of salvation.

Though the Bible honors Mary as the mother of Jesus and calls her “blessed among women” (not above women, Lk 1:28), it does not teach us to deify her,

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

venerate her, or pray to her. The Scriptures recognize Mary as a woman of humility, obedience, and virtue.

These are exactly the kind of people we are to afford “double honor” and follow them as role models.

The Scriptures tells us how Jesus taught His disciples how to pray. (Matt 6:5-15) Prayer is to be addressed to God only-not to saints or anyone else.

I think you have misunderstood the use of the word “prayer”. It just means “to ask”.
Worship and adoration is addressed to God alone. Requests can be made of anyone.

Jesus forbade repetitive prayers.

No, He did not. On the contrary, He particpated in a number of them Himself! Repitition is not the problem. It is the vanity that is the problem.

The rosary is almost the continual repetition of a sentence addressed to Mary. For the apostles to pray to Mary or ask for her intercession when Christ alone sits at the Father’s right hand and intercedes for us, finds no scriptural support and is contrary to what Christ taught them.

Since the Apostles had Mary right there close at hand, I am sure they just asked her most simply for her prayers, and I trust she offered them daily. Why else was she there in the upper room?

Randy, you read the scriptures through the colored glass of Rome. You try and force the Bible to conform to what your church and catechism says. But Jesus said we err, when we do not know the Scriptures.

The scriptures do not need to be “forced”, since the NT is a Catholic book, written by, for, and about Catholics, there is nothing in it that is not Catholic, or that does not conform to the Catholic Church.

 

[adriancombe]

A question Randy. What is the Aramaic equivilent? I do not know but do you? The angel did not speak in Greek to her. I can be convinced of this dogma (not that it is your goal) but a careful parsing of a translation will not do it for me. Thanks.

The Aramaic is found at peshitta.org with English interlinear and it does say “full of grace.”

 

[Louemma]

Ok but I posted the song and I happen to like the song and if you don’t then perhaps you should forget the song and move on.Good grief
Also listing your opinion of popular Christian Music and your dislike of it really does not matter because the song was listed here showing others that Mary deserves honor for being the mother of our Lord so what’s your problem?I know you don’t like it but I do and I’m sure other Catholics like the song after all didn’t you say the movie was created largely from devout Catholic? Of course I know this didn’t include you or maybe a few others.It’s a song man,get over it.

 

[Louemma]

My name is Louemma not Loue and if you would be so kind as to use my name.To say we?You and one other are the complainers.What is up with your rudeness anyways?

 

[Louemma]

Now this is a model Christian.

 

[PRmerger]

NOW, with that being said, I happened to like the video. Thanks for sharing!

Oops! I posted a bit too prematurely.

I watched the video again after posting and I guess I missed the ending the first time…
because I found the ending…well, a little bit…

guess what word I’m going to use…

[SIGN1]
tacky.[/SIGN1]



I find the singer proclaiming “King Jesus!” a bit over the top myself. Just a personal preference.

I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO JESUS BEING MY KING, however. I’m just saying it was a little eye-rolling to hear that part of the song, IMHO. Maybe if I had been in the audience I would have been caught up in the moment and been the first to yell, “KING JESUS! ALLELUIA!!” myself. I dunno…

 

[PRmerger]

My name is Louemma not Loue and if you would be so kind as to use my name.To say we?You and one other are the complainers.What is up with your rudeness anyways?

Many of us CAF members have been reading this and agreeing silently with one or the other. I agree with Jharek, but have not voiced my opinion until the nonce.

Firstly, the entire “culture” of this forum is debate/dialogue/discussion. So, if you post “A” and someone states “anti-A”, then I say, “knock yourselves out and have a good time doing it.” I mean, really, who wants to participate in a forum in which you click on a thread and always “I agree!” or “Me, too!” is all you get.

Secondly, Jharek was simply expressing his musical taste–not making any kind of theological declaration, and I agree that you seemed to extrapolate this:
-someone who doesn’t like this video has a problem with Christ’s death on the cross.

The Passion of the Christ or this song and video came to realize just exactly the suffering that our Blessed Savior went through on the day he died for the world’s sins.
You call that tacky?Or perhaps you did not like the reminder of what Your Lord and Savior done for you?

Nope. Some people just didn’t like the video.

NOW, with that being said, I happened to like the video. Thanks for sharing

And I agree with you here:

But I bet the message was not sent for the ones who are whole but for those that are sick?

And this post made me smile:

Remember King David dancing and praising God and who was it his wife(Saul’s daughter)she also thought that was tacky.

• I had to read the verses in 2 Samuel and, indeed, it could be interpreted that Michal thought King David’s dancing was…well…tacky.

It makes me laugh to think of King David dancing, thinking, “Hey, I look pretty good, don’t I? I got some moves!” and someone else (of course it was a woman!) thinking: that is sooo tacky!

 

[PRmerger]

NOW, with that being said, I happened to like the video. Thanks for sharing

Oops! I posted a bit too prematurely.

I watched the video again after posting and I guess I missed the ending the first time…
because I found the ending…well, a little bit…

guess what word I’m going to use…

dare I say it…

[SIGN1]tacky![/SIGN1]

I just didn’t like the artist proclaiming, “King Jesus!”. It seemed a bit over the top.

Now, I HAVE NO PROBLEM THEOLOGICALLY WITH PROCLAIMING JESUS AS MY KING. It just made my eyes roll in the song.

Who knows, maybe if I had been present in the audience during a live performance I would have been the first one to stand on my chair and sing at the top of my voice, “ALLELUIA! GO KING JESUS!” I dunno…

 

[Louemma]

Oops! I posted a bit too prematurely.

I watched the video again after posting and I guess I missed the ending the first time…
because I found the ending…well, a little bit…

guess what word I’m going to use…

dare I say it…

[SIGN1]tacky![/SIGN1]

I just didn’t like the artist proclaiming, “King Jesus!”. It seemed a bit over the top.

Now, I HAVE NO PROBLEM THEOLOGICALLY WITH PROCLAIMING JESUS AS MY KING. It just made my eyes roll in the song.

Who knows, maybe if I had been present in the audience during a live performance I would have been the first one to stand on my chair and sing at the top of my voice, “ALLELUIA! GO KING JESUS!” I dunno…

Now I can appreciate your honesty.You were tactful
I did not realize the ending of the song is what the problem was.Yeah,I will agree but only on the end.He should have had on a white robe but it was the part of Mary that I was trying to show for those who did not realize the sufferings that she had to endure while watching her first born being tortured.That was the intention I had when posting the song.
The King David thing just kinda slipped in there

 

[Yellow_Belle]

no

Good!

However we know there are those who don’t read scripture and this is how some who are lost may hear the good news.

I see your point, but doubt that a video and song - even if one gets over a distaste for that particular music genre - could be more effective at transmitting the good news than the example of a Christian life, lived to the utmost.

I’m through discussing this with you because to pick at and disagree over a song that is about the lord is a waste of our time.If this music offends you then you probably shouldn’t listen to it.If you find a link and you don’t like the song,click off so then you will not have to listen to a worship song that you find offensive.

Actually, I was far less offended by the music than I was by the accusations bandied about that just because I found the music and video…er…not to my taste…I was somehow in denial about what the Lord suffered for my sins. Most times a disagreement is just that - a disagreement - and not an indication of some deep-seated spiritual deficit. :yup:

 

[Leslie_Polley]

I don’t think anyone saw that! You think I attacked you?

Well then we will just go by what you say OK…lets see…who called me a liar…Oh sorry you did’t see that.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Yes, of course! this is written there because it is a Catholic doctrine.

There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic.

Really? When and where was this? Can you post a link? What kind of “declaration” was it?

It seems that you have seriously misunderstood the doctrine.

No one but Jesus can mediate salvation for mankind, and no one else could die for our sins. Where do you get these strange ideas?

Mary brought Jesus into the world, and He brought salvation to mankind. She was His handmaiden. She cooperated with His grace, becoming part of His great plan of salvation.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

These are exactly the kind of people we are to afford “double honor” and follow them as role models.

I think you have misunderstood the use of the word “prayer”. It just means “to ask”.
Worship and adoration is addressed to God alone. Requests can be made of anyone.

No, He did not. On the contrary, He particpated in a number of them Himself! Repitition is not the problem. It is the vanity that is the problem.

Since the Apostles had Mary right there close at hand, I am sure they just asked her most simply for her prayers, and I trust she offered them daily. Why else was she there in the upper room?

The scriptures do not need to be “forced”, since the NT is a Catholic book, written by, for, and about Catholics, there is nothing in it that is not Catholic, or that does not conform to the Catholic Church.

Yankee_driffter…I don’t think guanophore has a clue what you are saying…Guanophore, the New Testement is not a C book for crying out loud…it was for everyone…Chirst died for everyone…Jews and Gentiles…Peter preached to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles…we are the gentiles unless you are a Jew. If you are a Jew then Peter would have been pres=aching to you , but I don’t think they have a Pope…anyway, in Matt. 6:7 it talks about repetisious praying…Oh yes its there.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Ok but I posted the song and I happen to like the song and if you don’t then perhaps you should forget the song and move on.Good grief
Also listing your opinion of popular Christian Music and your dislike of it really does not matter because the song was listed here showing others that Mary deserves honor for being the mother of our Lord so what’s your problem?I know you don’t like it but I do and I’m sure other Catholics like the song after all didn’t you say the movie was created largely from devout Catholic? Of course I know this didn’t include you or maybe a few others.It’s a song man,get over it.

You rock…Let me just add this since My name was brought up (Leslie) do you live in a vacuum. The video was about Christ…It showed His mother running to Him as a child, which I am sure she did as all children fall and that is what mothers do for crying out loud…showing her run to Jesus as He carried the cross was good movie making, because that is obviously not what happened or it certainly would have been in the Bible. I did not object to that either…It was a video for heaven sake. I loved it and I loved the music so stop being so anal and move on. You would think that you are the head of the Philharmonic…you play heavy metal for crying out loud…this makes you an authority on music…I think not. Let it gooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.