Mary as Immaculate Conception

[Yellow_Belle]

But I bet the message was not sent for the ones who are whole but for those that are sick?

Are you equating the purpose of Kari Jobe’s ‘message’ in a video and ‘song’ to that of our Lord’s words in Sacred Scripture?

 

[guanophore]

Sorry I should have used the name of Jesus, not God. and yes they do try to diatise her.

There are people that construe Mary as a deity. I know a Pagan woman who believes Our Lady of Guadelupe is actually the Mother Goddess.

How about,for the sake of discussion, we stick to what Catholics believe, shall we? The Catholic Church teaches that having anyone before God is idolatry. Therefore, anyone who “diatises” another creature would be violating the first commandment.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

We can also ask other people to pray for us like this:
Hail, Mary, full of grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of they womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death.

In the first part, I simply quoted scripture. In the second part, I asked Mary to pray for all of us (not just myself). So, I interceded for you by asking Mary to intercede for all of us. She’ll take my request, adding her own, straight to Jesus.

No problems with any of that, right?

You cannot pray to Mary and expect her to go straight to Jesus, because you can only get to the Father through Jesus…You don’t pray to Mary in Jeus name…She has no power and you cannot show in the Bible anywhere that she does. She had no special powers, or she would have changed the water into wine…She was the mother of the man part of God. She was not the mother of God or she would have to have been before God…Before Jesus, Before the Holy Spirit and she was not. She was the Mother of the human part, God was the Father of the GOd part…simple really.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

No, but then, you don’t know that He did not speak to them. For all we know, when He finished teaching, He got up, went out, and gave His mother a big hug and a kiss!

No woman of that culture in that day, or in this travelled alone without a male companion, either a husband, uncle, brother etc. Only prostitutes travelled unaccompanied by a male family member. One must understand the clan structure to make sense of the kinship and the idea of “brother or sister”. Anyone who was too close for marriage was considered a brother, sister, uncle, aunt. This is why it was such a grievious sin for Tamar to be violated by her half brother. It was considered incest.

As far as your submission, Leslie, you are being called to submit to the successor of Peter.

I will submit to the Son of God , God the Father and the Holy Spirit ONLY.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

There are people that construe Mary as a deity. I know a Pagan woman who believes Our Lady of Guadelupe is actually the Mother Goddess.

How about,for the sake of discussion, we stick to what Catholics believe, shall we? The Catholic Church teaches that having anyone before God is idolatry. Therefore, anyone who “diatises” another creature would be violating the first commandment.

You have it…therefore I would not kiss the Popes ring, or bow before anyone but Christ the King…

 

[guanophore]

try Matt. 12:46-50

This has already been covered, Leslie. I think you are not really reading or integrating Randy’s fine posts.

Matthew was originally written in Aramaic, a language that has no words for stepbrother, cousin, half brother, etc. All in clan who are too close for marriage are considered “brothers”. Jesus was the only child of Mary. He was her firstborn. All her other children are spritual, as described in the book of Rev. Which, by the way, mentions Mary “after the book of Acts”.

 

[JustaServant]

This has already been covered, Leslie. I think you are not really reading or integrating Randy’s fine posts.

Ya think?

 

[Leslie_Polley]

I know for a fact that Saints do live in Heaven and that they can be called upon. according to the Bible --(Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36), Jesus became “radient” and spoke with Moses and Elijah who had come down with God from heaven. It became clear that Jesus was “above” them in rank, and that Saints still do the work of God even after their life on earth.

Mary the Virgin Mother is “Queen of Heaven” and her duty is to look after Gods chosen race here on earth. She was without sin, and we pray the rosary in her honor, so that she will intercede for us with Jesus. We ask her for things like the end of abortion (the killing of innocent children), and be it Gods will, He will grant our requests.

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

Jesus met with Moses and Elijah, and the radiance was blinding…the apostles wanted to build alters to each of them…they where NOT able to. Moeses and Elijah where not in heaven yet, they were inn Paridise waiting for the death and reserection of Christ to open the gates of heaven. The apostles did NOT talk to Moses or Elijah…only Jesus did.
As far as Mary being the Queen of heaven looking out for all the earthly people,…where did you get that because it was not from scripture. You see if she was going to be “looking out” for anyone iit would be the Jews and the angel Michael the arcangel is gaurding Israel. Mary is a saint in heaven thats it. She was not a perpetual virgin either. Joseph did not KNOW her until after the birth of Christ…the word Know her is the same as have sex with her. he was not celibate and she lost her virginity. She only had to be a virgin for Christ…

 

[guanophore]

No, it didn’t say that did it and since He made such a big deal out of saying she was no more important than His other disciples (or followers) don’t you think scripture would have said something if He had…

No, scripture was never intended to be a full accounting of the life of Christ, or our faith.

You have it backwards. What Jesus was saying is that, if the obeyed Him, they would be ELEVATED to the same level of intimacy with Him as His family. I am not sure why you seem to take all these opportunities to disrespect Mary, the Mother of Jesus. He was a good Jew! He honored His mother and His father. Why would it be wrong for you to do the same?

But where scripture is silent, we are to be also.

This is an excellent example of an extra-biblical tradition. Like Sola Scriptura, it is a tradition of man that contradicts what is said in scripture, and has no basis in the scriptures themselves.

A disciple is one who embrasses and assists in spreading the teachings of another, which makes us diciples as well…that was His point, its not a possision we are appointed to its one we chose. So you see there is no double blessing, she was only doing what any mother would do…in this case, follow the teachings of her Son.

If you think it is not a blessing to be counted among His disciples, I guess that is a serious loss for you.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

This has already been covered, Leslie. I think you are not really reading or integrating Randy’s fine posts.

Matthew was originally written in Aramaic, a language that has no words for stepbrother, cousin, half brother, etc. All in clan who are too close for marriage are considered “brothers”. Jesus was the only child of Mary. He was her firstborn. All her other children are spritual, as described in the book of Rev. Which, by the way, mentions Mary “after the book of Acts”.

No He was not the only son , or child of Mary…Joseph did not (KNOW) Mary until Jesus was born…after that it says that Joseph did (KNOW) Mary…they had sex like any married couple…Know==sex.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Ya think?

Ya, I think

 

[guanophore]

I have not written ONE lie on this sight… I will pray for you.

Thank you for your prayers. Yes, you have represented a number of lies. I will not credit them to your account, however. You received them from others, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not know they were lies when you perpetrated them here. A lie is a deliberate attempt to deceive someone, and it is clear that you really believe the lies you have been told.

 

[guanophore]

Then why do you pray to her?

To “pray” in this context means to “ask or beseech”. We request her prayers, like we would anyone who walks uprightly in the sight of God.

The Bible never instructed you to…

Sure it does. It clearly states that the effectual fervent prayers of the righteous avail much. Mary, the first Christian, is very powerful with her prayers. She is such a powerful prayer, she got Jesus to work His first public miracle!

Her instructions to the servants on that occassion of prayer are every bit as applicable as us today. “Do whatever He tells you”, good words for us.

the only example of prayer was given by Jesus in the Our Father.

This is simply false, and represents a very deficient understanding of prayer. Did you know that Jesus used the Psalms for His prayer book?

 

[adriancombe]

To understand the full power of prayer using the name of Jesus,
John 14;13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name,that I will do,that the Father may be glorified in the son.
John 14:14 If ye shall ask anything in my name,I will do it.

I love verse 14.We are confident by the words of Jesus that anything we ask in His Name,He will do!

True enough as far as it goes, but seems to be begging the question.

In other words, since Mary is praying to Jesus for us, it wouldn’t seem you’d have a problem with that.

 

[Odell]

Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her “not until (“heos”, in Greek)” she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future. Instead, “not until” she bore a son means “not up to the point that” she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove “not until” means “not up to the point that”:

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you “until the end of the world.” This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

Luke 1:80 - John was in the desert “up to the point of his manifestation to Israel.” Not John “was in the desert until after” his manifestation.

Luke 2:37 - Anna was a widow “up to the point that” she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

Luke 20:43 - Jesus says, “take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

1 Tim. 4:13 - “up to the point that I come,” attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing “until after” I come.

Gen. 8:7 - the raven flew back and forth “up to the point that” [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.

Gen. 28:15 - the Lord won’t leave Jacob “up to the point that” he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 - but “up to the point of today” no one knows Moses’ burial place. This does not mean that “they did not know place until today.”

2 Sam. 6:23 - Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

1 Macc. 5:54 - not one was slain “up to the point that” they returned in peace. They were not slain after they returned in peace.

 

[Odell]

Mary is Ever Virgin

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the “first-born” son of Mary. But “first-born” is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the “first-born” son had to be sanctified. “First-born” status does not require a “second” born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as “the” son of Mary, not “a” son of Mary. Also “brothers” could have theoretically been Joseph’s children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you “will” conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, “How shall this be?” Mary’s response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus’ biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as “the other Mary.”

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of “Alpheus.” This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t deitize her.

This is very Catholic of you!

 

[guanophore]

Yes the Bible is a Chrisitans owner’s manual !

Can you show where in the Bible it says this about itself?

It is the Word of God.

Indeed it is, but the Word of God is not confined to the Scriptures.

 And the quote you used from James is speaking to Christians to come together, confess your faults and pray together, for effectual, or the prayer of a just man brought in him by divine energy, fervent, meaning with your heart and soul meaning what you are saying, is powerful before God.    You must take the whole verse, and usually the verses before and after  for the full meaning of scripture

Good for you! Can you think of any reason why Mary would not be the recipient of divine energy, and fervent?

 

[guanophore]

We protestants don’t have trouble loving the woman God chose to be the vessel that had Jesus,

Ok. Do you have trouble accepting her as Theotokos?

Do you accept that she is the Mother of God, that He took His flesh from hers?

I can only speak for myself, but I have trouble with you praying to her to get to Jesus…

To “get to Jesus”? We have access to the throneroom of God!

Do you not have any Godly friends with an admirable prayer life? If you ask them to pray for you, does it mean you can’t “get to Jesus”?

Elevating her beyond what Christ hadis obserd.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

She was not spoken of much in the New Testement at all, except usually when others are mentioned also. My focus is on Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God.

There is no reason to separate Jesus from His mother. He was on her lap when the magi bowed before Him, and she was with Him until the foot of the cross. It is not necessry to try to subract her from the picture, either.

Then you are calling the Bible a lie, and the Carechizm true…You are in a scary spot…the Bible is the word of God,

No, Leslie. Not all of what you posted here comes from scripture. Anyway, it is your perception of the scriptures that we are taking exception to. You have been given lies about what “brothers and sisters” means.

the Catechizm is the word of man…Lets see, which should we read and follow…Yes I sincerely believe it, the Bible that is…

there is no contradiction between the two. The TEaching of the Church cannot contradict Scripture. The Bible is a Catholic book…

…You show me the lie that I have told…In the Bible…Not what you think because I don’t care what you think, I care what the Bible has to say.

I have asked you to show the scriptures for the statements you posted. Once you see that they are not from scripture, you may begin to realize that you have been fed quite a few man made traditions, some of which are not true.

 

[guanophore]

That was not a prayer that was a greetinng from Elizibeth to Mary…at no time was it a prayer untill you made it a prayer. The Our Father was an example of how to pray said to His Father because the apostles asked him. At no time was the Hail Mary in that catagory…It was a simple greeting. The second half was added bythe church. It is NOT in the Bible. (Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the end of our death…

You did not answer the question, Leslie. We know where it came from.

Tepo asked you if you found it offensive, and if so, why?

you know, I have never in my life seen so many people take things out of contex in my life.

I believe this Leslie. I don’t think you have any idea about the context of the NT.

The NT was produced by the Catholic Church. It is written by, for, and about Catholics. It is not possible to understand it correctly outside of the Catholic Church.

I have said VERY clearly that you MUST pray through ONLY jesus to get to the Father....that is scriptual.  You can also have people pray for you IF they pray for you through Jesus.....

Do you imagine that His mother prays some other way?

For instance. Dear Lord, I ask that the people here, that are trying so desperatly to tear down what I say see the light in you and there eyes are open from the darkness …in Jesus name I pray Amen.

I know your heart is sincere, Leslie. I am sure you believe the lies you have been given are true, and you mean well.

If you do not understand how to pray now, I am so sorry for you and I will pray for you...In the name of Jesus and no other.

No one prays “in the name of Mary”. Honestly, where do you get this stuff?