Mary as Immaculate Conception

[Leslie_Polley]

Actually, your understanding of "all have sinned’ is wrong - as I proved in the post above.

That makes you “oh for four” in this thread.

Not really…you give the scripture and then try to make it fit into your meaning…do what you must to be happy…you are still wrong.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Leslie-

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2nd Request on this question.

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Thanks.

Gosh sorry I missed you post…how could I have done this…The immaculate conception is Christ…His Father is God and that is the perfect bloodline…He was sinnless…Mary was a chosen vessel…to house Jesus so to speak. No Mary was not conceved sinnless, nor does the Word of God imply it. The only sinless personn on this earth was Christ, and He had to be to go to the cross. K did I answer your question? ? ? ? ?

 

[Leslie_Polley]

I know this question was not directed to me, but I cant help but to take a shot at it…

I’m not exactly sure, but I would have to say: — A — Mary’s conception in her mothers womb… Since the whole idea involves Mary being kept from original sin by God… (God can do anything)

BTW - Its an honor posting with you, as I’ve seen other posters borrow some of your quotes on other threads… (Using your name as the reference source of course)

He can and did…Mary WAS born with sin, Jesus was not…God can and did do it all.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her “not until (“heos”, in Greek)” she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future. Instead, “not until” she bore a son means “not up to the point that” she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove “not until” means “not up to the point that”:

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you “until the end of the world.” This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

Luke 1:80 - John was in the desert “up to the point of his manifestation to Israel.” Not John “was in the desert until after” his manifestation.

Luke 2:37 - Anna was a widow “up to the point that” she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

Luke 20:43 - Jesus says, “take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

1 Tim. 4:13 - “up to the point that I come,” attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing “until after” I come.

Gen. 8:7 - the raven flew back and forth “up to the point that” [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.

Gen. 28:15 - the Lord won’t leave Jacob “up to the point that” he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 - but “up to the point of today” no one knows Moses’ burial place. This does not mean that “they did not know place until today.”

2 Sam. 6:23 - Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

1 Macc. 5:54 - not one was slain “up to the point that” they returned in peace. They were not slain after they returned in peace.

Right but it does say Joseph…KNEW Mary…that means they had sex

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Yes… I see, Mary is everyones mother now ! —(Behold thy mother)—

to John!

 

[davidv]

Gosh sorry I missed you post…how could I have done this…The immaculate conception is Christ…His Father is God and that is the perfect bloodline…He was sinnless…Mary was a chosen vessel…to house Jesus so to speak. No Mary was not conceved sinnless, nor does the Word of God imply it. The only sinless personn on this earth was Christ, and He had to be to go to the cross. K did I answer your question? ? ? ? ?

Then you are referring to a conception other than the one the Church refers to as the the Immaculate Conception. The Church defined this doctrine as it applied to the conception of Mary in the womb of her mother. See here.

Mary is more the a vessel. She is also a human mother, who’s son also happen to be God.

She was concieve without sin because God chose to do so, not because it was necessary.

Yes, you answered the question. However your answer in contradictory to Church teaching.

 

[Odell]

Right but it does say Joseph…KNEW Mary…that means they had sex

Let’s say my wife had a child by someone before I came along. To prove the child is not mine I would say “I didn’t know her until after she had the child.” That would in now way suggest I had sex because I happen to know he know after she had the child. The purpose of the passage was to prove she had a virgin birth not to suggest Josoph
Had sex afterwards.

 

[marymol]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5154834#post5154834

Charism of ’ knowledge’ is something that many pride in these days …

The gift to know of God …and His workings and ways , in us , in those around us …would the New Born Babe in Bethlehem have wanted any less for His Foster Father …so that he too could sing … …from the knowledge that the long awaited and promised salvation , through the Woman , is at hand …

Our Lord , who wanted to take on human nature , with utmost love ( and thus to destroy the lies of the evil one, since the Garden - that human beings are not precious to The Father …) He knew the Way to do so , through The Woman ; it does take Mother Love and trust, through The Mother and The Church , to ’ know ’ such truths , in its fuller depths …that then does not leave room for the falsehoods , which , in one way or other are meant to take away from the ’ impossible ’ truth , that God did take on human nature …

May the yearning to know such truths … who God is … by reflecting on the uniqueness and singularity of the role of The Mother , fill many more …

Peace !

 

[marymol]

May prayers of St.Joseph help us all , to bring in the strenght and comfort that many seek , to be able to know and trust in our Heavenly Father’s love and plans for us each !

Peace !

 

[Randy_Carson]

You cannot pray to Mary and expect her to go straight to Jesus, because you can only get to the Father through Jesus

Mary can talk to Jesus just like you can, and because we know her to be in heaven, we can also assume that her prayers are more effective than yours. Therefore, if I ask both you and Mary to pray for me, I am confident that A) Mary will actually do so and B) that God considers her prayers carefully. It is less certain what will come of my request to you.

You don’t pray to Mary in Jeus name

Right. She’s not God, so I’m “praying” or talking to her more like I would with you. She’s a creature, too. I pray to the Father in Jesus’ name.

…She has no power and you cannot show in the Bible anywhere that she does. She had no special powers, or she would have changed the water into wine…

If she has “power”, it is because that power comes from God - just as that power to heal the sick and raise the dead exhibited by Peter and Paul came from God.

She was the mother of the man part of God. She was not the mother of God or she would have to have been before God…Before Jesus, Before the Holy Spirit and she was not. She was the Mother of the human part, God was the Father of the GOd part…simple really.

This is an old, old heresy that has been reborn in recent years among many ignorant Protestants who are clueless - CLUELESS - as to why Mary is rightly called the Mother of God.

Read some history on Nestoriansim. You could not be more wrong.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I will submit to the Son of God , God the Father and the Holy Spirit ONLY.

What about those who are in authority over you in the Church?

Or are you ignorant of the scripture which says:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

So, Leslie? Do you submit to the leaders of the Church or not?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Not really…you give the scripture and then try to make it fit into your meaning…do what you must to be happy…you are still wrong.

Could you offer a more compelling argument? I have given a clear explanation as to why Paul did not literally mean that every single human being ever born has committed personal sin when he wrote “all have sinned”.

You haven’t given any substantive response…will something be forthcoming?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Gosh sorry I missed you post…how could I have done this…The immaculate conception is Christ…His Father is God and that is the perfect bloodline…He was sinnless…Mary was a chosen vessel…to house Jesus so to speak. No Mary was not conceved sinnless, nor does the Word of God imply it. The only sinless personn on this earth was Christ, and He had to be to go to the cross. K did I answer your question? ? ? ? ?

Well, you offered an answer, but your answer is incorrect.

“The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic Dogma, the conception of the Virgin Mary without any stain (macula in Latin) of original sin. It is one of the four dogmas in Roman Catholic Mariology. Under this aspect Mary is sometimes called the Immaculata (the Immaculate One), particularly in artistic contexts.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

 

[Randy_Carson]

Right but it does say Joseph…KNEW Mary…that means they had sex

False.

The scriptures do not say that Joseph knew Mary, and you cannot prove otherwise.

In fact, the scriptures say the opposite:

Matthew 1:25 (King James Version)

25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Since I have previously provided biblical evidence that the word “until” does not mean cessation of a past action, you cannot use this verse to disprove the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

You have nothing to support your erroneous belief except Protestant nonsense.

I should point out, by the way, that only MODERN Protestants appear to have succumbed to this falsehood, for the original reformers such as Luther, Calvin and even John Wesley held that Mary remained a virgin all of her life.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

Originally Posted by TEPO
Yes… I see, Mary is everyones mother now ! —(Behold thy mother)—

to John!

I guess you don’t get the symbolism.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Leslie_Polley:
Thank you

 

[PRmerger]

Well, you offered an answer, but your answer is incorrect.

“The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic Dogma, the conception of the Virgin Mary without any stain (macula in Latin) of original sin. It is one of the four dogmas in Roman Catholic Mariology. Under this aspect Mary is sometimes called the Immaculata (the Immaculate One), particularly in artistic contexts.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Exactly, Randy. The Immaculate Conception is a* Catholic* term, defined by Catholics.

Protestants who make up their own defintion of what is the Immaculate Conception are going against the Bible–[SIGN1]for the term “Immaculate Conception” is not in the Bible [/SIGN1](as they correctly point out.)

In fact, I don’t know of many Protestant churches called “Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception.”

 

[Leslie_Polley]

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Mary can talk to Jesus just like you can, and because we know her to be in heaven, we can also assume that her prayers are more effective than yours. Therefore, if I ask both you and Mary to pray for me, I am confident that A) Mary will actually do so and B) that God considers her prayers carefully. It is less certain what will come of my request to you.

Right. She’s not God, so I’m “praying” or talking to her more like I would with you. She’s a creature, too. I pray to the Father in Jesus’ name.

f she has “power”, it is because that power comes from God - just as that power to heal the sick and raise the dead exhibited by Peter and Paul came from God.

She was never credited with one miracle of anykind…not one, as was Peter, Paul, or the other apostles…She had less said about her, and was never made a big deal about, other than she was the mother of the (MAN part of Jesus…His Father was God) and she was a virgin until after Jesus birth when Joseph "Knew’’"and they had sex according to the Bible, as I said and will continue to say she was not a prepetual virgin…it was never asked of her.

This is an old, old heresy that has been reborn in recent years among many ignorant Protestants who are clueless - CLUELESS - as to why Mary is rightly called the Mother of God.

I am so sorry…it is not heresy, it is truth. It hard to get this point accross to many ignorant Catholics… I thought we could both be ignorant…K
Read some history on Nestoriansim. You could not be more wrong.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

What about those who are in authority over you in the Church?

Or are you ignorant of the scripture which says:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

So, Leslie? Do you submit to the leaders of the Church or not?

I submit to the authority as long as it lines up with what Christ says, and NO I will not kneel or kiss their ring…I Kneel only to Christ my King…You kneel to whomever you wish.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Could you offer a more compelling argument? I have given a clear explanation as to why Paul did not literally mean that every single human being ever born has committed personal sin when he wrote “all have sinned”.

You haven’t given any substantive response…will something be forthcoming?

I explained it clearly. Read ROmans 3:23 again and Romans 5:12