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adriancombe
Guest
Correct. The etymology of worship is “worthship”, i.e. giving someone their due. E.g. In certain old formulations of marriage vows, “with my body I thee worhsip”.
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Leslie_Polley
Guest
She was born with original sin…the sinless bloodline to Christ came from this Father. You cann think what you want, and the CC has proclamed it, but God and the Bible have not.
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LionHeart777
Guest
Leslie Polley,
the words that you say above- “She was born with original sin”, these are making a positive claim.
as has been explained to you, this is not found in the Bible. You infer this from a passage in Romans, and perhaps another elsewhere- I can’t remember, but it’s not there explicitly.
Now, the Eastern Orthodox Christians, although they reject the Immaculate Conception and, I believe the Catholic understanding of original sin, nevertheless maintain that Mary remained sinless throughout her life. Catholics, although coming at it from a different Theological angle (we would maintain the correct one), nevertheless end up with a Mary who didn’t sin. As Randy pointed out, many of the Protestant reformers also held the same position. Is there, in your mind, even a chance that you are incorrect? Could it be possible that:
a) Mary lived a sinless life?
or
b) Mary, through God’s power and intervention, was preserved from the stain of original sin, and then, remained sinless?
Also,
Are you aware of the Catholic (and I believe Orthodox too) and early Christian teachings on Mary as the new Eve?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Prove it.
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zach_dunn
Guest
Are you referring to . . .
1 Corinthians 8:12-13
“12 Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food is a cause of my brother’s falling, I will never eat meat, lest I cause my brother to fall.”
Well, Catholics aren’t hurting anyone then, seeing as we’ve never put Mary and our Lord on the same level. Yes, she did, and Catholics have always understood her as such. There is a little more than what meets the eye here, though:
Matthew 23:11-12
“11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant; 12 whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
Mary is considered by many, many Catholics to be the greatest saint of them all for she showed the greatest amount of humility, obedience, and servitude. Also, Jesus told us to exalt the humble! Why do Protestants have a problem with Catholics exalting Mary when Jesus says she’s going to be exalted anyway?!
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Des
Guest
lol, that’s just crazy talk. I can hardly see Christ going against the Will of His father just to save someone some embarrassment.
Did you by any chance happen to notice that nowhere in Her response, does it even imply she felt like she did a bad thing where She wouldn’t dare do something like that again as you stated. There was no: “Oops, sorry Son, my bad. I should have known better.” http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r49/Escape_bucket/oops.gif
Because not a second later, she completely ignored being reprimanded chuckles when She said: “Whatsoever he shall say to you, you do”. That to me sounds like a Woman who’s pretty sure Her request wasnt a bad one as well as having the certainty of it being met. The Mother of God would never ask of Him something that was totally againt His will.
You see, your interpretation Leslie has no flow with the rest of the passage. It stops abruptly. Where as ours goes perfectly with the Sacred Traditions of our Blessed Mother, being the great Intercessor that She is.
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guanophore
Guest
No one is claiming He lost His backbone with His mother. On the contrary, He was the most perfect Jew that ever lived, and kept the commandments perfectly. He honored His mother in every way possible, in this case, allowing her to choose the time of the onset of His public ministry.
Indeed not, Louemma. Mary is a creature, and worship of her would be an act of idolatry, a very grave sin. We honor her as our Mother, as we have been adopted into Christ. As the first Christian, she lives a life that is exemplary to all of us. She instructs us in our faith, telling us across the centuries “Do whatever He tells you”. Mary always points to Christ.One questionDo the Catholics worship Mary?That’s all I wanna know.
Yes, it is clear. It is a great loss for those who do not avail themselves of a relationship with the Lord’s mother, but one can be saved even with a truncated gospel.Good Heavens,you are a hostile little Catholic
I had reasons for asking because I already know the answer.
Now in the word of God and I don’t have that word in front of me at the moment, says something to the effect of “If I do something that is not a sin to me,but is a sin to another”
You’ll have to look it up I believe it’s in 1 Cor.8
My point is I personally think Mary is a great woman who as Mary said herself,that God favored her among women.I don’t pray to her not because I think it’s wrong but because I feel odd praying to anyone besides the father because I know when I pray the Father hears me and really I feel no need to pray to Mary or with her(however you do it) because it’s the Lord I am wanting to talk with anyways.
If I say this I’m still in accordance to the word of God.So praying to the Father only, is not a sin or not something the Lord is going to condemn me for.Right?
If you go to Mary in prayer,so she will pray for you then "what’s that to me?Nothing.If praying to Mary is not a sin for you then your good.If praying to Mary is a sin for someone else then by all means,Don’t do it but don’t condemn others because a sin for one may not be a sin for another.
Hope this clears up why some are so against Praying with Mary.
However it is a sin for all, if Mary is placed in the same regards as the Lord.Did Mary not state she was a handmaiden of the Lord?
No one here has said that Mary is “placed in the same regards as the Lord”. This is a misunderstanding of the Apostolic faith. I ask people who have an admirable prayer life to pray for me. It does not place them on par with the Divinity.
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guanophore
Guest
Leslie, what brings you here to CAF? You don’t seem to be here for any “Catholic Answers”.
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JustaServant
Guest
Hmmmm…maybe to ‘win souls’ to her religion?Leslie, what brings you here to CAF? You don’t seem to be here for any “Catholic Answers”.
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Louemma
Guest
My reason for asking is apparently not everyone knows that the Catholic don’t hold Mary in the same status as Jesus,according to the various post on this thread.
However I understand that you guys on here feel the need to protect your belief in Mary.I must also say that all on here, there are the non-catholic, that are christians,same as you, and they are not the enemy and your response to my question is rude.
There are some who see praying to Mary as wrong.I also know the scripture I gave was in response to eating food sacrificed to idols.However this particular scripture can apply to any area of the Christian life.The example in scripture which can apply to all things that really is for those who sit in judgement of others actions,saying they sin.Only if the person feels convicted, is it a sin,such as praying to Mary.Which happens to make some feel it to be sin,when to the Catholic it is not.
You might get better responses in your belief of Mary if you and others on here did things with a Christian attitude instead of down right being rude in responding to others on this thread.
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guanophore
Guest
You seem to be trying to make a point…not sure what it is, or why you feel the need to do so.
Yes, we do. The Gospel was handed down in the Church as a seamless garment. We are not at liberty to jettison portions of it that present conflicts to our Modern American Evangelical brethren, who have been separated from the Apostolic faith for 500 + years, and some depart further almost daily.
It is not for us to decide which elements of the Faith are “essential”. That is God’s perogative.
I fail to see what is rude?
There are many non-Catholics here who make themselves enemies of the Catholic Church. There are few places where this is more obvious than in their reactions to the Marian Doctrines.
I understand and appreciate the point you are trying to make here. However, it must be noted that people commit sin all the time but are not convicted of it because their conscience is seared, as with a hot iron.
Some non-Catholics believe we are so steeped in idolatry that we cannot see that we are in sin.
**
You might get better responses in your belief of Mary if you and others on here did things with a Christian attitude instead of down right being rude in responding to others on this thread.
**There is nothing rude about inquiring about the motivation for your question. You appeared to be asking it polemically, and not for your own information. This post, in fact, confirms that assessment.
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PRmerger
Guest
You must be mistaking me for someone else, Louemma, because I have said nothing rude..You might get better responses in your belief of Mary if you and others on here did things with a Christian attitude instead of down right being rude in responding to others on this thread.
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JustaServant
Guest
In my conversations with non-Catholics (in real life) I find they are confused or disagree with Marian Doctrines, but never in a hostile way.
That is usually the mark of extremism.
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, I think this point is well made.
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Louemma
Guest
I suppose my point is…
It’s disturbing for Christians to argue over Mary.
If you want to ask Mary to pray for you then what’s that to those who don’t ask Mary to pray with them?
If I don’t ask Mary to pray with me,then what’s that to those who do?
We are Christians and I know we are made in God’s image,therefore having those same emotions and I bet the Lord gets sick to death with his children constantly bickering over who does what the right way.Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love the Lord God and secondly love one another.Go back through this thread and tell me"Do you feel love here"
Also someone pointed out a scripture taken out of context,when I stated a sin to one might not be a sin to another,this is not speaking of a sin against God.This is speaking of,going back to 1 Cor 8 and to speak in plain English If you think it’s a sin to pray to Mary"Don’t Do It’ but if one does pray with Mary,don’t judge that person as sinning because to them,this is not a sin.
You know what, I really don’t care,if there are those who can’t understand what is being said here,then continue arguing who is right about Mary and who is wrong because in the end it’s not going to matter because it’s not a sin if you do pray to her or you don’t pray to her.There is not one poster on here that can provide scripture stating to pray or not to pray to Mary is a sin.
It’s disturbing for Christians to argue over Mary.
If you want to ask Mary to pray for you then what’s that to those who don’t ask Mary to pray with them?
If I don’t ask Mary to pray with me,then what’s that to those who do?
We are Christians and I know we are made in God’s image,therefore having those same emotions and I bet the Lord gets sick to death with his children constantly bickering over who does what the right way.Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love the Lord God and secondly love one another.Go back through this thread and tell me"Do you feel love here"
Also someone pointed out a scripture taken out of context,when I stated a sin to one might not be a sin to another,this is not speaking of a sin against God.This is speaking of,going back to 1 Cor 8 and to speak in plain English If you think it’s a sin to pray to Mary"Don’t Do It’ but if one does pray with Mary,don’t judge that person as sinning because to them,this is not a sin.
You know what, I really don’t care,if there are those who can’t understand what is being said here,then continue arguing who is right about Mary and who is wrong because in the end it’s not going to matter because it’s not a sin if you do pray to her or you don’t pray to her.There is not one poster on here that can provide scripture stating to pray or not to pray to Mary is a sin.
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LionHeart777
Guest
Dear Louemma,
I see your point about that Pauline passage and people’s consciences… it is a great passage and it is obviously Truth.
Perhaps, I can help you see it from a Catholic’s (Catechumen actually) perspective. First let me say, as a convert from Protestantism, my conscious was bothered by this, and the truth of the matter is–I don’t have to pray to anyone but God if I don’t want to, as a Catholic. However, I have come to accept the Doctrine of the Communion of the Saints and I do ask daperted Christians to pray for me. Now having said that, let me explain something from a Catholic perspective:
I certainly agree that to go against conscience is to sin and I believe the Church would uphold this; although the Church (and God) would also want us to have an informed conscience. Here is my point after that longwindedness: perhaps there is some confusion when you are saying that “it’s not a sin for you but it is for me”, do you mean that you think that:
a) “there is nothing wrong with praying to (with) the Saints, but my conscience will not allow me to do it.”
or
b) “I think it’s wrong and Catholics don’t, and since we can’t know for sure, then it’s ok for Catholics to do but not for me.”
I think that Catholics have a problem w/ b in that it is an assault on a Catholic Doctrine; namely, the Comunion of the Saints, and an assault on Catholic practice–asking Saints for their prayers.
so, two points are: no one is forced to pray with the Saints (at least as an individual) as a Catholic. But for someone to call it a “sin” to do so, that is, in a way, an assault on the Catholic Doctrine of the Communion of the Saints- and that is why people might be reacting as they are.
I see your point about that Pauline passage and people’s consciences… it is a great passage and it is obviously Truth.
Perhaps, I can help you see it from a Catholic’s (Catechumen actually) perspective. First let me say, as a convert from Protestantism, my conscious was bothered by this, and the truth of the matter is–I don’t have to pray to anyone but God if I don’t want to, as a Catholic. However, I have come to accept the Doctrine of the Communion of the Saints and I do ask daperted Christians to pray for me. Now having said that, let me explain something from a Catholic perspective:
I certainly agree that to go against conscience is to sin and I believe the Church would uphold this; although the Church (and God) would also want us to have an informed conscience. Here is my point after that longwindedness: perhaps there is some confusion when you are saying that “it’s not a sin for you but it is for me”, do you mean that you think that:
a) “there is nothing wrong with praying to (with) the Saints, but my conscience will not allow me to do it.”
or
b) “I think it’s wrong and Catholics don’t, and since we can’t know for sure, then it’s ok for Catholics to do but not for me.”
I think that Catholics have a problem w/ b in that it is an assault on a Catholic Doctrine; namely, the Comunion of the Saints, and an assault on Catholic practice–asking Saints for their prayers.
so, two points are: no one is forced to pray with the Saints (at least as an individual) as a Catholic. But for someone to call it a “sin” to do so, that is, in a way, an assault on the Catholic Doctrine of the Communion of the Saints- and that is why people might be reacting as they are.
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Louemma
Guest
Well I’m not assaulting anyone’s belief here
What I’m saying is If the Catholics want to pray to Mary or the saints then that’s their business.I’m not coming on here telling them that what they do is wrong and I’ve seen that on here from other non_Catholics.If a Catholic feels this is in with accordance to the word of God,let them knock themselves out doing it
I’m not here to preach them down about it.Somehow I’ve been caught in the crossfire on here and got my feathers ruffled.
I don’t pray to know one but the Lord but that’s my business and it would sorely upset me if someone came here and told me differently.
Good grief I was taking up for the Catholics and the fact they pray to Mary,don’t really matter to me anyhow but like I said Got caught in the cross fire.
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guanophore
Guest
This is well said Lou. It is not something over which we need to argue. It surely hurts the heart of our Lord.
Yes you did, bless your heart! May God enrich you for your efforts to “insofar as it depends upon you, be at peace with all”.Well I’m not assaulting anyone’s belief here
What I’m saying is If the Catholics want to pray to Mary or the saints then that’s their business.I’m not coming on here telling them that what they do is wrong and I’ve seen that on here from other non_Catholics.If a Catholic feels this is in with accordance to the word of God,let them knock themselves out doing it
Somehow I’ve been caught in the crossfire on here and got my feathers ruffled.
I don’t pray to know one but the Lord but that’s my business and it would sorely upset me if someone came here and told me differently.
**Good grief I was taking up for the Catholics and the fact they pray to Mary,don’t really matter to me anyhow but like I said Got caught in the cross fire.:**thumbsup:
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zach_dunn
Guest
I think something that hurts our Lord’s heart even more is people not coming into full communion with His Church because they misunderstand its (and His) teachings about Mary, and then people in His Church saying stuff to the effect of “let’s just not worry about it, let’s focus on the things we have in common” when all this is saying is essentially “let’s agree to disagree.”
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