Mary (as Queen Mother) always gets her requests?

[Della]

The submission of Christ to Mary that de Montfort talks about is that of deigning to do what the other asks, not one of subservience.

It’s like when a girl lets a boy dance with her. He may lead but she gives him permission to lead. It’s a cooperative act, not a “push and pull” kind of act where each one is trying to get the better of the other as in a wrestling match.

Jesus told us he is “meek and humble of heart”. He wishes us to be like him. To prove this to us he submitted to Mary and Joseph, and in a way, he still does by answering the prayers they offer to him on behalf of those who ask them.

We are all to be of service to one another, not think of how we can be over others. Jesus, by becoming a human being, demonstrated how he wishes us to interact with each other, in love and deference to one another. This is why he told his Apostles he came to serve not to be served and that they too were to be the servants of all. He is merely fulfilling the role he set for himself and for us to follow.

 

[CaptFun]

Probably someone has already said this … but the ***Blessed Mother didn’t even make a request ***at the Wedding Feast at Cana.

She gave Jesus some information.

He understood what she wanted and gave HER some information.

She turned to the servants and said “Do whatever He tells you.” (Leaving it in his hands).

Someone (perhaps Fulton Sheen) pointed out that when Jesus was FIRST ready to begin His public ministry (at age 12 when he “left home” and began taking His place “In His Father’s House”) - Mary didn’t understand. At that time Jesus (not bound to strictly, having reached Jewish manhood at age 12 … like at a Bar Mitzvah) returned home because *He knew his mother wished it.
*
So inadvertantly Mary had “delayed His (formal public) ministry” though she never asked him to delay it.

At 12 Jesus wasn’t wasting a second in beginning His ministry. As a 30 year old
He was of the mind that “… my time is not yet” to work a miracle and so begin his public ministry.

Mary’s leaving it in His hands – ends up with His working the miracle. Both are cases of “Honor thy … Mother” (half of a commandment the Messiah must keep along with the others in fulfilling the law completely).

So Jesus delayed his formal mission - then began it in consideration for His mother’s wishes.

Her “requests” may STILL be on the line of “… they have no wine.” Then too she has powers. Miracle working powers? Yes - if any woman has them. Jesus said some of His servants would " … do the works that I do … and greater ones."

This is not SO hard to grasp. You and I can help people in non-miraculous ways by our own powers (we are stewards that have money, time, skills etc.). And our own wills. Our own wills guided by the Holy Spirit will have us become branches of that true vine (Jesus) and produce fruit that can bless others.

Since Mary has an Immaculate Heart … her requests would never contradict the teachings or will of Her son. And if we receive the Holy Spirit and the gifts of Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Counsel, Piety, Fortitude and Fear-of-the-Lord through Confirmation – Our Blessed Mother knows when and where and to whom to bestow her own favors so as to bless a deserving or needy person – as well as when an asked for gift is not timely or the right thing for the requester at the time.

Apart from Jesus we can do nothing. And when Mary works a miracle, it is through that power. She was, let us remember, branch number ONE on the vine (chronologically and otherwise).

The example of Solomon and Bathsheeba IS interesting. Solomon does stop everything to listen to his mother (the Queen Mother). In THAT case, the Queen Mother was being used by Solomon’s rival potentially (and she’d made mistakes before … not to be unkind).

Our Blessed Mother is not likely to put Jesus’ throne in danger of his rival (Satan) … nor inclined to be deceived in such a way. Her will is subordinate to His as it was at the time of her “Let it be done unto me …” Also she is the promised “woman” who has “enmity with” Satan … and her seed (Jesus) will crush him in the end.

If it seems that Mary (not by request but because she did not yet understand fully the profound mission of Jesus) delayed his ministry at Jerusalem by her searching for Him in sorrow rather than letting Him go … she comes to that complete letting go that began at Cana … on the day of His Passion. Where she stood silent like her lamb … as her heart was pierced too.

ASK and you shall receive … certainly applies to Mary. And I’m confident that she does not “ask wrongly” as is warned of in the Epistle of James … or in the request of Bathsheeba.

GETS … is a funny word for Mary … as she is a consummate giver and was not known for asking much. In fact, the two most famous “askings” of Mary … were subtexts in the Bible … as when she speaks she never actually makes a direct request of Jesus.

Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven. The Bible records miracles wrought at Peter’s hands (and voice, and shadow!). Mary seems to have that faith the size of a mustard seed that performs some of the promised prodigies Jesus predicted.

OK so … YES. Why not? Mary’s requests would seem never to contradict the will of the Father, her Son, or the Holy Spirit and would be made for the benefit of the recipient. At Lourdes and Fatima she says yes to some prayers of healing, no to others - one would think due to knowing when a miracle would not harm the soul of the recipient – and when perhaps (say) an “inability to sin” was a greater good for the soul in question.

Thanks for the question. It led me to remember some important things.

Like “Thank you dear Mother … show unto us the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” :extrahappy:
… in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit … Amen!

 

[brb3]

Ok … you make some good points.

What about De Montfort saying. ----“Jesus’s strongest ‘wish’ is that we come to him via his mother, Mary”

Do we find anything in Sacred Scripture & Tradition …to support ?

I don’t…rather I see De Montfort taking Mary’s ‘wish’…and changing it to Jesus’ !!
A 180 degree flip of SS /Tradition.

 

[Della]

Ok … you make some good points.

What about De Montfort saying. ----“Jesus’s strongest ‘wish’ is that we come to him via his mother, Mary”

Do we find anything in Sacred Scripture & Tradition …to support ?

I don’t…rather I see De Montfort taking Mary’s ‘wish’…and changing it to Jesus’ !!
A 180 degree flip of SS /Tradition.

Well, that’s the problem here, dear sister. What you see and what de Montfort is saying are not necessarily the same thing. The saint’s writings require us to have a certain amount of theological understanding in order to “get it”, just as it does for reading Aquinas or Augustine. de Montfort’s teaching is quite deep and involved. It’s not for everyone because not everyone is prepared to understand what he was expressing.

Also, there’s the language barrier because what we have are English translations of a text written in another time with expression of that time, for a specific audience, in another language. Like Scripture itself, it’s not easy to read or discern. Our popes have given de Montfort’s writings their approval–Bl. John Paul II was a devotee of de Montfort. We can be sure that what he taught is in line with Tradition and Scripture in every respect.

And we cannot take words/phrases out of context in a work that is so tightly woven together. Like St. Paul, we have to have a good grasp of the whole of his teaching in order to have any understanding what he is telling us. I’ve read True Devotion to Mary and even with a B. A. in religious education, it wasn’t an easy read. I think I “get” most of what he wrote, but studying it and applying it are another matter. For this I believe a good spiritual director would be advisable who can help navigate both the theology as well as the devotoinal aspects of de Montfort’s writings.

 

[JRKH]

Well, that’s the problem here, dear sister. What you see and what de Montfort is saying are not necessarily the same thing. The saint’s writings require us to have a certain amount of theological understanding in order to “get it”, just as it does for reading Aquinas or Augustine. de Montfort’s teaching is quite deep and involved. It’s not for everyone because not everyone is prepared to understand what he was expressing.

Also, there’s the language barrier because what we have are English translations of a text written in another time with expression of that time, for a specific audience, in another language. Like Scripture itself, it’s not easy to read or discern. Our popes have given de Montfort’s writings their approval–Bl. John Paul II was a devotee of de Montfort. We can be sure that what he taught is in line with Tradition and Scripture in every respect.

And we cannot take words/phrases out of context in a work that is so tightly woven together. Like St. Paul, we have to have a good grasp of the whole of his teaching in order to have any understanding what he is telling us. I’ve read True Devotion to Mary and even with a B. A. in religious education, it wasn’t an easy read. I think I “get” most of what he wrote, but studying it and applying it are another matter. For this I believe a good spiritual director would be advisable who can help navigate both the theology as well as the devotional aspects of de Montfort’s writings.

I believe this is the best post I have read on this subject.

Time and again I see devotees of people like de Montfort pull things out of his writings that simply are not properly comprehensible to those of us who have not studied his writings.
I wish they could see how some of these things - contrary to their intent - actually make it harder for some to embrace a deeper devotion to Our Lady. The reason being, without the proper foundation and understanding that you speak of above, the things that are sometimes stated “out of context” can sound inappropriate to the “untrained” ear.

Thank you for this wonderful post.

Peace
James

 

[brb3]

I believe this is the best post I have read on this subject.

Time and again I see devotees of people like de Montfort pull things out of his writings that simply are not properly comprehensible to those of us who have not studied his writings.
I wish they could see how some of these things - contrary to their intent - actually make it harder for some to embrace a deeper devotion to Our Lady. The reason being, without the proper foundation and understanding that you speak of above, the things that are sometimes stated “out of context” can sound inappropriate to the “untrained” ear.

Thank you for this wonderful post.

Peace
James

I hear you.
But, his writings have been around for a long time, and if JP2 and his brethren, assisted always by HS, wished them in 1992 CCC …they must of been removed. ----- In regards to: " it is Jesus’ strongest ‘wish’ we go thru Mother Mary, to reach him".

 

[CaptFun]

Thanks to the “questioners” - seek and you shall find …

but especially some of the “answerers” who have shed light of insight on the topic. :newidea:

The VINE is the main thing (apart from Him we can do nothing) … but the fruitful branches deserve our praise and attention too.

Mary “GETS her requests” strikes me funny … kind of like “…the Mounties always GET their man!”

It is good to remember that her intercession seems never to be a raw use of power on her part … or for herself in any way (other than to help “her other” children).

She HAS that high rank – but it’s amusing to think of her twisting Jesus’ arm 'til He gives out with an "AW MOM!" – and grants*** another ***of the flapdoodle requests she is always bugging Him with. :nope::doh2:

I hope no one sees it THAT way.

 

[brb3]

Thanks to the “questioners” - seek and you shall find …

but especially some of the “answerers” who have shed light of insight on the topic. :newidea:

The VINE is the main thing (apart from Him we can do nothing) … but the fruitful branches deserve our praise and attention too.

Mary “GETS her requests” strikes me funny … kind of like “…the Mounties always GET their man!”

It is good to remember that her intercession seems never to be a raw use of power on her part … or for herself in any way (other than to help “her other” children).

She HAS that high rank – but it’s amusing to think of her twisting Jesus’ arm 'til He gives out with an "AW MOM!" – and grants*** another ***of the flapdoodle requests she is always bugging Him with. :nope::doh2:

I hope no one sees it THAT way.

No we don’t.
Mary is never contrary, she is the perfect mom …so that those here on earth that lost a mom, or have a contrary mom, can be comforted by Mary.
And, so all the moms in world have the perfect role model …raising their children as she did Jesus.

 

[Della]

I hear you.
But, his writings have been around for a long time, and if JP2 and his brethren, assisted always by HS, wished them in 1992 CCC …they must of been removed. ----- In regards to: " it is Jesus’ strongest ‘wish’ we go thru Mother Mary, to reach him".

I’m afraid I’m not quite understanding you here. Are you saying that if de Montfort’s teachings are legitimate they’d be in the Catechism of the Catholic Church? If so, then I have to say you don’t understand what the CCC is and what it isn’t. It’s a basic book of Catholic teachings, not a compendium of all the writings of the saints and their spiritualities. If you think de Montfort scandalous, you should read Maximillian Kolbe.

I say this in all gentleness, as a lay person with no theological training, it is not up to you (or me either) to decide what is and isn’t acceptable Church teaching/spirituality/practice. As long as they have the Church’s approval, we can read and make use of any of of the saints’ writings.

Not all writings will speak to all of us, nor will all of us understand them. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t legitimate or must be challenged. That’s not how things are done in the Church. We are not Protestants who sift through doctrines/teachings/devotions and decide on our own which are “all right” and which ones aren’t. If de Montfort doesn’t help you, then don’t read him. Find some other saint or devotion that will.

 

[Della]

I believe this is the best post I have read on this subject.

Time and again I see devotees of people like de Montfort pull things out of his writings that simply are not properly comprehensible to those of us who have not studied his writings.
I wish they could see how some of these things - contrary to their intent - actually make it harder for some to embrace a deeper devotion to Our Lady. The reason being, without the proper foundation and understanding that you speak of above, the things that are sometimes stated “out of context” can sound inappropriate to the “untrained” ear.

Thank you for this wonderful post.

Peace
James

:tiphat: and

 

[De_Montfort]

I believe this is the best post I have read on this subject.

Time and again I see devotees of people like de Montfort pull things out of his writings that simply are not properly comprehensible to those of us who have not studied his writings.
I wish they could see how some of these things - contrary to their intent - actually make it harder for some to embrace a deeper devotion to Our Lady. The reason being, without the proper foundation and understanding that you speak of above, the things that are sometimes stated “out of context” can sound inappropriate to the “untrained” ear.

Thank you for this wonderful post.

Peace
James

Hi James, How are you? Hope all is well for you!
Since I’ve been on here I have yet to address a person who is “Non-Catholic”. Most people I have run into are “Catholics” who have some issue with Mary and Her role. This is why I do not walk on egg shells when posting. I agree with you that St. Louis de Montfort needs to be read as a whole! All of His writting should be taken into consideration. He longed for Eternal Wisdom, (Jesus Christ) and discovered the easiest, holiest, and most direct means of obtaining union, and keeping union with Jesus Christ, and that is Mary.
Now you posted to me before, as if I was working against Mary’ and Her cause which is to unite us with Christ. I boldly reply that it is the cause of Jesus Christ to fight and uphold the honor of His Mother and the history of the Chruch proves that point. St. Louis de Montfort was very clear on false devotees of and for Mary and I will quote them here, in my reasoning for posting the way I do!
God Bless you!

1. Critical devotees are for the most part proud scholars, people of independent and self-satisfied minds, who deep down in their hearts have a vague sort of devotion to Mary. However, they criticise nearly all those forms of devotion to her which simple and pious people use to honour their good Mother just because such practices do not appeal to them. They question all miracles and stories which testify to the mercy and power of the Blessed Virgin, even those recorded by trustworthy authors or taken from the chronicles of religious orders. They cannot bear to see simple and humble people on their knees before an altar or statue of our Lady, or at prayer before some outdoor shrine. They even accuse them of idolatry as if they were adoring the wood or the stone. They say that as far as they are concerned they do not care for such outward display of devotion and that they are not so gullible as to believe all the fairy tales and stories told of our Blessed Lady. When you tell them how admirably the Fathers of the Church praised our Lady, they reply that the Fathers were exaggerating as orators do, or that their words are misrepresented. These false devotees, these proud worldly people are greatly to be feared. They do untold harm to devotion to our Lady. While pretending to correct abuses, they succeed only too well in turning people away from this devotion.

1. Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary’s altar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were at variance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her.

 

[brb3]

Hi James, How are you? Hope all is well for you!
Since I’ve been on here I have yet to address a person who is “Non-Catholic”. Most people I have run into are “Catholics” who have some issue with Mary and Her role. This is why I do not walk on egg shells when posting. I agree with you that St. Louis de Montfort needs to be read as a whole! All of His writting should be taken into consideration. He longed for Eternal Wisdom, (Jesus Christ) and discovered the easiest, holiest, and most direct means of obtaining union, and keeping union with Jesus Christ, and that is Mary.
Now you posted to me before, as if I was working against Mary’ and Her cause which is to unite us with Christ. I boldly reply that it is the cause of Jesus Christ to fight and uphold the honor of His Mother and the history of the Chruch proves that point. St. Louis de Montfort was very clear on false devotees of and for Mary and I will quote them here, in my reasoning for posting the way I do!
God Bless you!

93 & 94 are harsh & scary …give us his comforting quotes on proper devotion to Mary by De Montfort devotees

 

[JRKH]

Hi James, How are you? Hope all is well for you!

I am doing well. hope all is well with you too.

Since I’ve been on here I have yet to address a person who is “Non-Catholic”. Most people I have run into are “Catholics” who have some issue with Mary and Her role. This is why I do not walk on egg shells when posting.

I was not aware of that. I personally have not kept track of who it is that we have discussions with or the various people involved.
that said…I’m not sure what it is you mean by “walking on eggshells”. The simple point contained in my and Della’s posts is that teachings such as de Monfort’s need to be understood as a whole. Something that you obviously agree with as evidenced by your comment below. So it seems that we are quite in agreement.

I agree with you that St. Louis de Montfort needs to be read as a whole! All of His writting should be taken into consideration. He longed for Eternal Wisdom, (Jesus Christ) and discovered the easiest, holiest, and most direct means of obtaining union, and keeping union with Jesus Christ, and that is Mary.

Now you posted to me before, as if I was working against Mary’ and Her cause which is to unite us with Christ.

I don’t recall that I ever did this. Though I have mentioned that some posts can have the opposite effect from the one intended. It is a sad but true fact.

I boldly reply that it is the cause of Jesus Christ to fight and uphold the honor of His Mother and the history of the Chruch proves that point.

Yo9u and I have no argument on this point. The only place where you and I might disagree in how best to do this.

St. Louis de Montfort was very clear on false devotees of and for Mary and I will quote them here, in my reasoning for posting the way I do!
God Bless you!

That is fine.
But would you agree that there can be people who fit neither of these categories and also not be a devotee of De Montfort’s approach to Marion devotion?

Or do you think that I fit into one of these categories - and if so - which one…

Peace
James

 

[Mark121359]

I’m afraid I’m not quite understanding you here. Are you saying that if de Montfort’s teachings are legitimate they’d be in the Catechism of the Catholic Church? If so, then I have to say you don’t understand what the CCC is and what it isn’t. It’s a basic book of Catholic teachings, not a compendium of all the writings of the saints and their spiritualities. If you think de Montfort scandalous, you should read Maximillian Kolbe.

I say this in all gentleness, as a lay person with no theological training, it is not up to you (or me either) to decide what is and isn’t acceptable Church teaching/spirituality/practice. As long as they have the Church’s approval, we can read and make use of any of of the saints’ writings.

Not all writings will speak to all of us, nor will all of us understand them. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t legitimate or must be challenged. That’s not how things are done in the Church. We are not Protestants who sift through doctrines/teachings/devotions and decide on our own which are “all right” and which ones aren’t. If de Montfort doesn’t help you, then don’t read him. Find some other saint or devotion that will.

Della, I would just like to applaud you on your excellent posts! :clapping:

Peace, Mark

 

[CaptFun]

No we don’t.
Mary is never contrary, she is the perfect mom …so that those here on earth that lost a mom, or have a contrary mom, can be comforted by Mary.
And, so all the moms in world have the perfect role model …raising their children as she did Jesus.

Nice post. Nice insight on those whose Mothers weren’t so … glorious. And turning to the one who is.
*
I often had the same thought about fathers. As God is “The Father” suppose your Father was on the “bad” side. How to relate?

A good Father or role model is needed by everyone (as far as benefits to the soul go).

Jesus is the ultimate role model … but for Father there is also St. Joseph. Always looking to do the right thing. Gentle when administering justice, quick to hear God’s counsel. More action than talk. *** AND …**** St. Joseph doesn’t speak in the Bible at all!

 

[ellzeena]

Probably someone has already said this … but the ***Blessed Mother didn’t even make a request ***at the Wedding Feast at Cana.

She gave Jesus some information.

He understood what she wanted and gave HER some information.

WHAT a fabulous post this is! How eloquent! At Lourdes, miracles do occur, every day. One was done for me in October, and for others in my group. Healing takes many forms, sometimes it is Courage, sometimes it is a reminder of her presence in one’s life. Once you have been to Lourdes, something of you remains there. Thank you so much for sharing this.

 

[CaptFun]

WHAT a fabulous post this is! How eloquent! At Lourdes, miracles do occur, every day. One was done for me in October, and for others in my group. Healing takes many forms, sometimes it is Courage, sometimes it is a reminder of her presence in one’s life. Once you have been to Lourdes, something of you remains there. Thank you so much for sharing this.

:blushing: You are a great temptation to me (lol) … my head has swollen to twice its size … no living with me now.

Thank you ellzeena. My late Mother went to Lourdes … and was not “healed” of her physical afflictions but became as a little angel in accepting her gradual incapacity, being bedridden and finally “graduating”.

At the end all she could do was, with great effort, open her eyes and struggle to engage us with one word at a time.

At her end, her children were around her bed praying the rosary (as it was with my Dad about a year and a half later). To our surprise … she regained consciousness (without opening her eyes however) and said “Amen” as we finished the Rosary. It was her last word. NOT a bad choice for one’s last word is it?

My last words will probably be: Oh NO!!"*

*let NO stand for a less acceptable word I might say then.

Per this thread … as regards “getting” our requests through Mary … prayers for healing
on this earth are of a temporary nature even if one gets them. If one gets a NO on the temporary healing and gets given a path to the graces that deliver forever … they should consider their prayer answered with a YES … and in a BETTER way.

I will try to live up to your kind compliment now. :sad_yes:

 

[Rosinante]

You’re dead wrong on this brb3.

Our Blessed Lord did not deny the Blessed Virgin at all in John 2, He merely stated that His time had not come yet and that the wedding problem didn’t concern them, yet, without any other comment or hesitation she told the servants “Do whatever he tells you.” (verse 5) and the Lord stepped right up and, in response to her intercession, performed the miracle and actually began His public ministry early. (see verse 11).

Over the course of all the church approved apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary one message is consistent, even as in John 2:5, she tells us all “Do whatever he tells you.”

Just to supplement your point–as you correctly noted, Jesus asks:

And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.

–Douay Rheims

Greek: TI EMOI KAI SOI GUNAI (Kai soi = ‘and to thee’).

Not, as it is often translated, “…what is this to me”.

Hence Yeshua actually includes Mary, in in his gaging of the relevance of the situation, and we may therefore properly infer that He viewed Mary as an active participant with His Mission–not as some irrelevant tag-along.

(…for the benefit of the Scripture emphasis types–for my part, I’m quite satisfied with the Traditional basis for Marian devotion).