Mary before she died

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Eastern Catholics and Roman Catholics have the same beliefs.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

That’s rich.

In our parish, there are those who believe the world was made in 6 days and those who believe in evolution over millions of years.

In our parish, there are those who believe in a worldwide flood with water spewing out of the earth, and those who believe in a localized flood, and those who believe Noah’s story is allegory.

So, since Roman Catholics do not all have the same belief; and if the above statement is true, then Eastern Catholics must not all have the same belief either. This I can accept.

When I speak with my Eastern friends, I am very careful to not speak of Original Sin instead I refer to our Fallen Nature (terms that seem acceptable to both of us). I don’t refer to TransSubstantiation as they do not subscribe to scholastic terminology, etc. We have many beliefs that are different, but there are underlying truths that we share.
There is only ONE faith and ONE Truth.
This I can accept; that we share ONE Faith and ONE Truth (upper case) and He is the Lord.

But beliefs… …, those are varied and worth discussing. If we all believed the same thing, there would be no point in these forums.
 
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

That’s rich.

In our parish, there are those who believe the world was made in 6 days and those who believe in evolution over millions of years.

In our parish, there are those who believe in a worldwide flood with water spewing out of the earth, and those who believe in a localized flood, and those who believe Noah’s story is allegory.

So, since Roman Catholics do not all have the same belief; and if the above statement is true, then Eastern Catholics must not all have the same belief either. This I can accept.

When I speak with my Eastern friends, I am very careful to not speak of Original Sin instead I refer to our Fallen Nature (terms that seem acceptable to both of us). I don’t refer to TransSubstantiation as they do not subscribe to scholastic terminology, etc. We have many beliefs that are different, but there are underlying truths that we share.

This I can accept; that we share ONE Faith and ONE Truth (upper case) and He is the Lord.

But beliefs… …, those are varied and worth discussing. If we all believed the same thing, there would be no point in these forums.
Fine, Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics have the same doctrinal beliefs.
 
I’m not going to insist she did not, but I find it interesting that no less a person than Father Z posted this on his blog. . .
From my Patristic Rosary Project of a few year a
go:
4th Glorious Mystery: The Assumption
Although Ven. Pius XII also refers to Mary’s death in the document whereby he declared infallibly the dogma of the Assumption, and Bl. John Paul II advert’s to Mary’s death – as do some saintly writers – we do not know by a definitive or infallible teaching beyond a shadow of a doubt whether Mary died and was assumed body and soul into heaven at that moment or if she was assumed without dying.
We know with our Catholic faith, and by infallible authority, that at the end of her earthly life, the Mother of God was assumed into heaven and no stain of corruption touched her, in life or death.
That ought to stimulate some (respect-filled) conversation!



Perhaps a good explanation is that Our Blessed Mother, desiring to be like her Son, who did die, chose herself to die though Satan had no hold on her. It was fitting that she, the daughter of her Son and disciple of Her Lord, should be as He was. So, if that is the case, and she did die, then after a brief interval during which no corruption touched her, her soul and body were reunited in heaven in the presence of God.
It was fitting that the Mother of God, who had never known the stain of sin, while requiring a Redeemer just like every other human being, should not experience the corruption of the grave.
Our humanity is seated at the right hand of the Father in the divine Person of our Lord, . . .


So Father Z, a Latin scholar of some note, as well as someone not without experience in the study of the Church Fathers, while offering a good explanation for Mary’s death noting “perhaps” and “if she did die”, also states that there is no INFALLIBLE declaration that she did die.

In fact, it appears that those who have claimed that one COULD believe that Mary was ‘caught up at the instant before death’ (so as not to suffer even the slightest corruption because even an instant of death will result in the body undergoing some breaking down) are not forbidden such a belief according to Father Z. . . because such people would not be denying any infallible teaching of the Church. . .
.
Just because something isn’t infallible doesn’t mean we don’t have to believe it. Dogma is just Doctrine defined.
 
Curiously, the Vatican has conclusively declared that people are free to believe in a literal 6 days of creation or in millions of years of evolution. They haven’t done so in regards to the end of the life of Mary, contrary to what some would claim.
 
But the tradition is that she did die. Issue settled 👍
With respect, the issue is not settled.

There is indeed a tradition that she died or (since none of us have the actual documents written in Greek or Latin or whatever, or are privy to what the use of the term ‘die’ meant back then) that she appeared to die.

But the understanding of what constitutes death has grown and changed.

Here’s another tradition. Married men used to be admitted to the Latin (Roman) priesthood. . .during that golden "first millennium’. But the Holy Spirit spoke to the Church, and the Church now very very rarely admits a married man.

So. . .traditions can change if the understanding changes OR the Holy Spirit deepens the understanding.

I repeat, I am NOT questioning the teaching of the Church. But some very REPUTABLE people are pointing out a POSSIBILITY that may exist. This does NOT invalidate the Church’s teaching.

Remember the Scripture about how the bishop ‘must have only one wife?’ Well, that Scripture still stands but what Roman Catholic bishop has ANY WIFE nowadays? The teaching that permits a specific Scripture to stand yet has changed the parameters so that a Bishop does not have a wife AT ALL doesn’t mean that the original Scripture was wrong.
 
With respect, the issue is not settled.

There is indeed a tradition that she died or (since none of us have the actual documents written in Greek or Latin or whatever, or are privy to what the use of the term ‘die’ meant back then) that she appeared to die.

But the understanding of what constitutes death has grown and changed.

Here’s another tradition. Married men used to be admitted to the Latin (Roman) priesthood. . .during that golden "first millennium’. But the Holy Spirit spoke to the Church, and the Church now very very rarely admits a married man.

So. . .traditions can change if the understanding changes OR the Holy Spirit deepens the understanding.

I repeat, I am NOT questioning the teaching of the Church. But some very REPUTABLE people are pointing out a POSSIBILITY that may exist. This does NOT invalidate the Church’s teaching.

Remember the Scripture about how the bishop ‘must have only one wife?’ Well, that Scripture still stands but what Roman Catholic bishop has ANY WIFE nowadays? The teaching that permits a specific Scripture to stand yet has changed the parameters so that a Bishop does not have a wife AT ALL doesn’t mean that the original Scripture was wrong.
Those are all disciplines. Whether the Theotokos died or not is not a discipline.
 
Those are all disciplines. Whether the Theotokos died or not is not a discipline.
I agree. I don’t know how the end of the earthly days of the Theotokos can be compared with celibacy in the priesthood 🤷

Apples, meet oranges.
 
But the tradition is that she did die. Issue settled 👍
It doesn’t matter what the Tradition says, some people are going to believe what they want. It doesn’t matter that the Eastern Catholics have celebrated the Dormition (death) of Mary for over 1500 years in the liturgy, and that the way of worship is the way of belief. None of it matters, becase it just isn’t pallatable to some people. It seems that they think the Tradition bends to the will of a few. It says only what each person wants it to say. Protestants don’t believe in the real presence? It doesn’t matter that all the early Christian professed it. Just because their antireal presence doctrine is newer doesn’t make it false. Same with all the sacraments, and everything, even Tradition itself.
 
I agree. I don’t know how the end of the earthly days of the Theotokos can be compared with celibacy in the priesthood 🤷

Apples, meet oranges.
The point is that there was a CHANGE, and nobody went around claiming that the Scripture passages which spoke of bishops having ‘one wife’ meant priests HAD to be married (unlike a couple centuries down the road). They were able to understand that even though a person would read, or hear, “The bishop must be the husband of only one wife”, they would be able to say and understand, “Yes, that would still be the case, but the Holy Spirit has deepened our understanding so that we now realize it would be better for the man to be unmarried.” They would point to Scripture that supported this (St Paul, "the unmarried man is concerned for God but the married man must also be concerned for his wife).

Now, take the concept of Christian death, in which we already know that there will be a resurrection on the last day (Martha, to Jesus) and in which we fully expect that a person will have to die the death because ‘the wages of sin is death’ though “Christ died for all, death has no more power over Him”.

OK. Did Mary sin? Despite Scripture of “All have sinned” we know that Mary did not. Scripturally and traditionally speaking, we know that the sinless Christ did not HAVE to die, but chose to. We HEAR (from oral tradition) that Mary also ‘chose’ to die but strictly Scripturally and traditionally speaking, and indeed one of the reasons given for her assumption, was that she had not sinned and thus the normal passage from life on earth to life in heaven through the death earned by ORIGINAL SIN (sorry, my Orthodox brethren) would not have been necessary.

IOW, the possibility that Mary need NOT have died in order to be assumed is both Scriptural and traditional.

And what we have on the subject are translations from the Latin taken out of context and with the intent NOT fully known, That being said, we rely on the Church to interpret and explain its teachings to us.

And --so far–the Church HAS NOT STATED that ANYBODY who thinks there might be a POSSIBILITY that Mary did not actually die, but only ‘appeared’ to do so --is guilty of SIN.

Would you please point me out to the Canon Law or to the passage in the Catechism which states that a Catholic MUST believe in the physical DEATH of Mary as a dogma?

Mind you, my own PERSONAL feeling in the matter is that Mary would have asked God to allow her to suffer physical death, in order to imitate, in obedience and love, the sacrifice her Son made.

IOW, my own PERSONAL feeling, inclination, and belief is that I THINK that she did die, and the reasons for my belief I think are good ones.

But that being said, provided that any person believes in the doctrine of the Assumption, but SPECULATES or thinks that there is a possibility that God, for His own reasons, which could have been those of love and honor, permitted Mary to be assumed just PRIOR to her death, I think that person is not denying the Assumption, is not denying the teaching of the Church, and thus, is not sinning.
 
Tantum ergo:
Mind you, my own PERSONAL feeling in the matter is that Mary would have asked God to allow her to suffer physical death, in order to imitate, in obedience and love, the sacrifice her Son made.

IOW, my own PERSONAL feeling, inclination, and belief is that I THINK that she did die, and the reasons for my belief I think are good ones.

But that being said, provided that any person believes in the doctrine of the Assumption, but SPECULATES or thinks that there is a possibility that God, for His own reasons, which could have been those of love and honor, permitted Mary to be assumed just PRIOR to her death, I think that person is not denying the Assumption, is not denying the teaching of the Church, and thus, is not sinning.
You should understand that NO ONE is accusing ANYONE of sin, no matter what they believe about the Virgin Mary dying.

What people are doing is showing the sound reasons for believing Mary did die. The objections of those people who believe that she did not die, are met with sound arguments again, in favor of believing that Mary did die. Never does someone say that it is a sin to believe otherwise. On the other hand to offer as a “reason” to believe something, is because it’s not actually a sin to believe it, is a very shaky or weak Faith in my opinion.
 
I agree! Those who have been arguing that Mary passed conclusively has provided evidence from Holy Icons to quotations from saints to teaching of the Church Fathers.

Will those who are arguing against Mary’s passing produce written works by popes, bishops, saints, theologians who argue that Mary died?
 
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