Mary before she died

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No, I never said that, nor did I imply it. I merely gave my opinion. What I said was it was a mistake to think that the Church “doesn’t know,” or that “we can believe whatever we want.”

Is it possible for you to regard the Truth as worth seeking for it’s own sake, or must the Church command you under pain of mortal sin to believe something for you to take any pains at discovering it? Is that the attitude you wish to preach to your fellow Christians?

That is what you are preaching, whether you realize it or not. If you yourself believe that the Virgin Mary died, and you have a good reason for believing so, then why would you try to cover the light with a bushel basket, and direct other people in the opposite direction?

It’s not a question of what’s the absolute least one needs to believe, but a question of seeking the Truth, both in the matter of the Virgin Mary’s death, and the correct understanding of the Papal Encyclical.
You are missing the point. Those pushing the issue of Mary’s death are saying Catholics are BOUND to believe that because it is dogmatic as in MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS.
I am saying that is not true. Mary’s Assumption is dogmatic. Mary’s death or not is not taught by the Church.
If we are bound to believe it then means that any Catholic who does not believe is committing a mortal sin and that is simply untrue. That is my point. Its not whether we should or shouldn’t believe its whether we are bound or not. Bound means we sin if we don’t believe.
 
You are missing the point. Those pushing the issue of Mary’s death are saying Catholics are BOUND to believe that because it is dogmatic as in MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS.
I am saying that is not true. Mary’s Assumption is dogmatic. Mary’s death or not is not taught by the Church.
If we are bound to believe it then means that any Catholic who does not believe is committing a mortal sin and that is simply untrue. That is my point. Its not whether we should or shouldn’t believe its whether we are bound or not. Bound means we sin if we don’t believe.
No, I disagree. I have never seen ANYONE anywhere at any time, that believed that Mary died, and that she was resurrected by Jesus Christ and then Assumed into Heaven in her Glorified body, EVER, try to say that it was a sin to disagree. Please show me where you are getting this.

Otherwise your point is pointless. IOW, you are making a non-issue obscure the true issue. The True issue is WHAT IS THE TRUTH? That is what this thread is about: having a place for people to explain their beliefs and giving reasons for them.

You, and every other person I discuss this issue with ALWAYS focuses on the side issue of what the Church BINDS US to believe. However, as Catholics, and as Christians, we believe much more than what the Church binds us to believe. WHY? Because WE ARE the Church, and NOT EVERY DETAIL of our belief has been codified as a BINDING belief.

That is why I brought up St. Joseph. We believe he died, even though the Church nowhere FORCES US to believe that. But that doesn’t mean we go around saying he NEVER died because the Church doesn’t know, or that we can believe any way we want.

That attitude is false and unreal. It takes no account of the Truth, its value, or the fabric of our Faith, and places all emphasis on what is legally binding or not binding. That is a very DISTORTED view of Catholicism AND Christianity.
 
No, I disagree. I have never seen ANYONE anywhere at any time, that believed that Mary died, and that she was resurrected by Jesus Christ and then Assumed into Heaven in her Glorified body, EVER, try to say that it was a sin to disagree. Please show me where you are getting this.

Otherwise your point is pointless. IOW, you are making a non-issue obscure the true issue. The True issue is WHAT IS THE TRUTH? That is what this thread is about: having a place for people to explain their beliefs and giving reasons for them.

You, and every other person I discuss this issue with ALWAYS focuses on the side issue of what the Church BINDS US to believe. However, as Catholics, and as Christians, we believe much more than what the Church binds us to believe. WHY? Because WE ARE the Church, and NOT EVERY DETAIL of our belief has been codified as a BINDING belief.

That is why I brought up St. Joseph. We believe he died, even though the Church nowhere FORCES US to believe that. But that doesn’t mean we go around saying he NEVER died because the Church doesn’t know, or that we can believe any way we want.

That attitude is false and unreal. It takes no account of the Truth, its value, or the fabric of our Faith, and places all emphasis on what is legally binding or not binding. That is a very DISTORTED view of Catholicism AND Christianity.
You and other posters have stated that the Church teaches that Mary died before being assumed.
If the Church indeed teaches that then Catholics are bound to believe that upon pain of mortal sin.
Therefore, so there is no misunderstanding are you saying it is Church doctrine that Mary died and consequently we must believe that upon pain of mortal sin?

I don’t want to hear bleating that we should believe things even though it is not Church doctrine because that is not a point I have been making. As I asked above I want you to make clear if you are saying we are BOUND to believe Mary died.

To make it easy for you I will accept a simple yes or no answer!
 
The True issue is WHAT IS THE TRUTH? That is what this thread is about: having a place for people to explain their beliefs and giving reasons for them.
We don’t know The Truth. We have some extra-biblical founts that refer to the death of Mary, but we also know that she did not have to die - because she was sinless.
That is why I brought up St. Joseph. We believe he died, even though the Church nowhere FORCES US to believe that.
St. Joseph had to die maybe because he wasn’t sinless.
 
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I don’t want to hear bleating that we should believe things even though it is not Church doctrine because that is not a point I have been making.
And I have already stated that your point is a non-issue and diverting from the real issue.

But obviously we should believe everything the Church teaches, as well as everything we believe is True. That’s just common sense. Why would you NOT believe something you already believe is True? Bleating is when you say you believe something, but are too wishy washy to defend that belief.
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We don’t know The Truth.
And no one will ever know the Truth, if they refuse to consider it, but would rather go around saying we don’t know the Truth. Where would we be if the early Church took that attitude on the Trinity? It was hammered out with much pain and sorrow. It was ALWAYS known by the Church, but the Church had never HAD to put it into words before. When something becomes an issue, then we must use our God-given powers of rational thinking guided by the Holy Spirit to eventually arrive at the Truth.
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We have some extra-biblical founts that refer to the death of Mary, but we also know that she did not have to die - because she was sinless.
True, but babies are sinless too, so why do they die? The Immaculate Conception was a very special Grace given to the Virgin Mary in anticipation of her Redemption for the necessary purity required for a Tabernacle of the Most High Jesus Christ. IOW, the grace of the Immaculate Conception was a direct requirement and consequence of the Hypostatic Union, not because the Virgin Mary was created an immortal super human.

IOW, the Blessed Virgin Mary was in need of Redemption as much as anyone of us. So a case can easily be made that she was subject to death as much as any human.

Jesus was the pattern and model for all that are redeemed. Jesus shows us exactly how EVEN A PERFECT PERSON submits to the human condition and responds to God’s grace. He shows us how the seed MUST FALL TO THE GROUND AND DIE, before it can be RESURRECTED. That Resurrection is required for a glorified NEW BODY, and that glorified body of our Virgin Mother was then Assumed into Heaven according to Catholic Dogma.
 
And I have already stated that your point is a non-issue and diverting from the real issue.

**But obviously we should believe everything the Church teaches, as well as everything we believe is True. That’s just common sense. Why would you NOT believe something you already believe is True? Bleating is when you say you believe something, but are too wishy washy to defend that belief.
**

And no one will ever know the Truth, if they refuse to consider it, but would rather go around saying we don’t know the Truth. Where would we be if the early Church took that attitude on the Trinity? It was hammered out with much pain and sorrow. It was ALWAYS known by the Church, but the Church had never HAD to put it into words before. When something becomes an issue, then we must use our God-given powers of rational thinking guided by the Holy Spirit to eventually arrive at the Truth.

True, but babies are sinless too, so why do they die? The Immaculate Conception was a very special Grace given to the Virgin Mary in anticipation of her Redemption for the necessary purity required for a Tabernacle of the Most High Jesus Christ. IOW, the grace of the Immaculate Conception was a direct requirement and consequence of the Hypostatic Union, not because the Virgin Mary was created an immortal super human.

IOW, the Blessed Virgin Mary was in need of Redemption as much as anyone of us. So a case can easily be made that she was subject to death as much as any human.

Jesus was the pattern and model for all that are redeemed. Jesus shows us exactly how EVEN A PERFECT PERSON submits to the human condition and responds to God’s grace. He shows us how the seed MUST FALL TO THE GROUND AND DIE, before it can be RESURRECTED. That Resurrection is required for a glorified NEW BODY, and that glorified body of our Virgin Mother was then Assumed into Heaven according to Catholic Dogma.
You are still too scared to answer the question and keep digressing.
Is it Church doctrine that Mary died before being assumed. Yes or No.
Don’t Catholics deserve the right to know if they are committing a sin of grave matter or not?
 
As much as you cannot take one verse in the Bible in isolation, you cannot take one line in the Apostolic Constitution and say that is all that the Church teaches. The entire document should be taken as a whole, such as the Bible should be taken as a whole to understand what every line, every word means.

Only Fundamentalists argue by isolating text in order to defend their own point.
 
As much as you cannot take one verse in the Bible in isolation, you cannot take one line in the Apostolic Constitution and say that is all that the Church teaches. The entire document should be taken as a whole, such as the Bible should be taken as a whole to understand what every line, every word means.

Only Fundamentalists argue by isolating text in order to defend their own point.
That is not correct. The teaching in this particular document is exclusively the dogma of the Assumption and nothing else.

However, I am still waiting for certain posters to clarify if they believe that it is Church doctrine that Mary died.
As I keep saying Catholics are bound upon pain of mortal sin to believe the Church doctrines (infallible and non-infallible) so why do some people seem reluctant to answer. I believe Mary died (my personal view though is not the point) but aren’t Catholics who do not believe that entitled to know if they are committing a sin of grave matter or not?
 
That is not correct. The teaching in this particular document is exclusively the dogma of the Assumption and nothing else.

However, I am still waiting for certain posters to clarify if they believe that it is Church doctrine that Mary died.
As I keep saying Catholics are bound upon pain of mortal sin to believe the Church doctrines (infallible and non-infallible) so why do some people seem reluctant to answer. I believe Mary died (my personal view though is not the point) but aren’t Catholics who do not believe that entitled to know if they are committing a sin of grave matter or not?
So you are telling me that one of the 12 Great Feasts is a fairy tale that is optional belief?
 
So you are telling me that one of the 12 Great Feasts is a fairy tale that is optional belief?
Answering my question with a question is pointless as that usually means you don’t know or you know I am right.

The 12 Great Feasts (Orthodox Church) include the Dormition. The schismatic Orthodox Church believes Mary died.
The Catholic Church has the feast of the Assumption of Mary. The Catholic Church does not teach Mary died.

I have answered your question. I hope you will do me the courtesy to answer mine now and please stick to what the Catholic Church teaches or does not teach and leave aside whatever a schismatic part of the Church teaches.
 
Answering my question with a question is pointless as that usually means you don’t know or you know I am right.
I know 100% that you are wrong. But you are hardheaded. So I pose the question so other people reading this may think about it and know the truth.
The 12 Great Feasts (Orthodox Church) include the Dormition. The schismatic Orthodox Church believes Mary died.
Are you forgetting that there are 14 Catholic Churches that follow the Byzantine Rite, and therefore has all of the Traditions of the Chalcedonian Orthodox? So it is as much a Catholic belief as it is Orthodox. It is sad that you summarily dismiss something just because they are believed by the “schismatic Orthodox”.
The Catholic Church has the feast of the Assumption of Mary. The Catholic Church does not teach Mary died.
The Catholic Church does have the feast of the Dormition. Go and Google how many Catholic parishes are named in honor of the Great Feast of the Dormition.
I have answered your question. I hope you will do me the courtesy to answer mine now and please stick to what the Catholic Church teaches or does not teach and leave aside whatever a schismatic part of the Church teaches.
I am sticking to what the Catholic Church teaches. But you wish to engage in polemics to justify your wrong belief.
 
I know 100% that you are wrong. But you are hardheaded. So I pose the question so other people reading this may think about it and know the truth.

Are you forgetting that there are 14 Catholic Churches that follow the Byzantine Rite, and therefore has all of the Traditions of the Chalcedonian Orthodox? So it is as much a Catholic belief as it is Orthodox. It is sad that you summarily dismiss something just because they are believed by the “schismatic Orthodox”.

The Catholic Church does have the feast of the Dormition. Go and Google how many Catholic parishes are named in honor of the Great Feast of the Dormition.

I am sticking to what the Catholic Church teaches. But you wish to engage in polemics to justify your wrong belief.
My belief is that Mary died but what I am saying is the I am not obliged to believe that. Nobody is giving a straight answer to my questions, including you.

We are exclusively discussing Catholic Church doctrine, not the schismatic Orthodox Church.
Let me ask you and anyone else reading this:

Is Mary’s death a Church doctrine that BINDS Catholics upon pain of mortal sin?
Are Catholics who do not believe Mary died committing a sin of grave matter?

Yes or No?
 
I’m 99% sure that Mary died but I’m not 100% sure that Mary died.

I think the Catholic Church ALMOST teaches that Mary died but I don’t believe the Catholic Church has taught that with 100% absolute defined dogmatic necessity.

It does seem to me that the Catholic Church is leaning 99% in that direction–maybe the overwhelming majority of Catholic theologians believe that she died–I think that Catholics are certainly being guided by the Catholic Church into believing that she died even though it is not required belief.

Is it possible for the Catholic Church to 99% teach something before it later in time 100% with absolute certainty teaches something?

For many centuries there were MANY Catholics who believed in the Assumption and in the Immaculate Conception.

Would it be fair to say that 1 day prior to both of those things being dogmatically defined that the Catholic Church 99% taught them?
 
Is Mary’s death a Church doctrine that BINDS Catholics upon pain of mortal sin?
Are Catholics who do not believe Mary died committing a sin of grave matter?
Yes or No?
Why don’t you start your own poll/thread on that subject? It is NOT the topic of this thread.
 
It is inconsistent to say the least, that someone would accept that one paragraph of the apostolic constitution as infallible, but reject the rest as simply conjecture. There are several instances in the document where it says Mary died, but then when it mentions her reaching the end of her earthly life we are to take that to be a vague statement that leaves her death as an open question? AmbroseSJ was right, only a fool could believe this. It is minimalist wishful thinking to say that the document doesn’t teach the death of Mary.

Further, you are rejecting all of the tradition on which this doctrine is based. Every early document that speaks of the assumption also speaks of the dormition. You are as bad as protestants. You believe what you want, but call yourself traditional.

It is insulting to the eastern Catholics as well, who have the dormition of Mary as feast of the Church. So it is only western theology that matters, and what the east has to say is only a matter of opinion? Or is it just that the feasts and liturgy mean nothing when it comes to doctrine? They are just hypothetical days to rejoice and feast. You fast for two weeks before a hypothetical event. Only a fool could believe this.
 
There are SO many reasons to believe in the Dormition of Mary, but certainly of VERY heavy weight is the Ancient tradition of the Eastern Church, in both her Liturgy and her Icons. Then we also have this tradition in the Western Church as well. It has been established for as long as the Eastern Church’s tradition. Then we have the teachings of Popes (including the Blessed John Paul II, who explicitly stated that the wording of the document “MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS” means, without any doubt that Mary died. Then we have the teachings of Saints and Theologians going back to ancient times. Then we have Theological reasons as well, which I will get to in a minute.

The reasons for believing Mary never died are poorly thought out, employ sloppy Biblical exegesis and theology, not to mention a faulty understanding of how to read Papal documents, while failing to recognize the true teaching authority of the Church (The Universal Church from ancient times until now,) and substituting a wrong headed concept of only believing infallible documents (as poorly interpreted by themselves.)

The main reasons for believing Mary never died (as often seen in this forum are) :

Enoch and Elijah were “Assumed” into heaven while still living, and more probably also Moses (and maybe some others yet to be named?)

This is false on many grounds. First, on Biblical exegesis. It is very probable, if not certain that the writers of these passages were using a poetic euphemism for a funeral pyre (in Elijah’s case) or just a mysterious passing (in Enoch’s) case. The idea of an “Assumption” is totally foreign to Ancient Jewish culture. Heaven (as Christians understand it today) was not taught or understood. It was the “bosom of Abraham.”

Further, Christians believe that the CENTRAL reason for the Incarnation and Redemption of Jesus Christ was to RE-OPEN the gates of Heaven, which had been shut up since the fall of Adam & Eve. To think that random people throughout the Old Testament were in fact being "ASSUMED’ into heaven while living is a direct ASSAULT on the doctrine of the Redemption.

Further, Jesus Christ Himself said that St. John the Baptist was the greatest of all the prophets, and yet HE was beheaded! How do we reconcile that? Old Testament Assumptions are merely “modes” of dying for SOME holy prophets but not others? It is TOO ridiculous a thought! It DEGRADES AND DEBASES the MOST Holy Assumption of the Virgin Mary.

Another faulty argument in favor of Mary being assumed while living is that she was sinless, and therefore was also created immortal, unlike the rest of mankind since the fall of Adam and Eve.

But it is an error to believe Mary was created sinless (the Immaculate Conception) for her own sake. The Immaculate Conception was an extraordinary favor of God bestowed upon Mary FOR THE SAKE OF THE INCARNATION. It was that Jesus Christ, THE MOST HIGH, would have need for a perfect, unstained tabernacle. This special favor was granted the Virgin Mary IN ANTICIPATION of her REDEMPTION by her Son. IOW, Mary did not merit the Immaculate Conception, it was for the sake of the Incarnation. Mary therefore was NOT created as an immortal human, but given an extraordinary grace in anticipation of her role as the Mother of God. Mary’s cooperation with God’s grace was heroic, instantaneous and pure. That is what raises her above all the Angels and Saints; her extraordinary holiness in cooperating with God’s abundant grace and Holy Will. Therefore it is only fitting that Mary would die, like her Son, and all the rest of mankind.

Further, Jesus Christ Himself said that the servant is NOT above his master. Therefore it is a mistake to believe that Mary, the handmaid of God, would be above her Master, the Son of God.

Further, as Pope John Paul II says, it would have been our Blessed Mother’s Will to share IN EVERY RESPECT with her Son Jesus Christ, in the work of Redemption, which included death, which Jesus Christ had elevated and made Holy, by His own suffering and Death. It would have been CONTRARY to the Gospel Doctrine for God to consider death (after the Redemptive work of Jesus) to be merely a punishment for the sin of Adam.

Further consequences of believing Mary never died:

She was DENIED a resurrection from the dead, whereby we ALL including Jesus, receive our GLORIFIED BODY, which is necessary for entering Heaven.

The Resurrection of Mary is CENTRAL to the belief in the Assumption of Mary, with her glorified body and soul into Heaven.

In short, believing that Mary never died, requires a tortured twisting of Biblical passages, Papal documents, and common Church doctrines and dogmas, taught from ancient times. It is a relatively new concept as well, arising (as far as I have been able to tell) SINCE the Reformation, when so much error abounded in Western Christianity.
 
I have changed what I believe from 99% believing that Mary died to now I 100% believe it.

I read somewhere where John Paul II taught about it.

He says she died.

That’s good enough for me.

Plus all the arguments here make sense.

Was Mary dead very long? I have heard some say that she was dead for three days and then was taken body and soul to heaven–I’ve heard from others that she was immediately or very shortly after dying taken to heaven.

Does anyone here know?

How long was the dormition of Mary before she entered into heaven? What is the tradition of the Eastern Church on this question?
 
Isn’t there an Encyclical that teaches the Dormition of Mary? (Not sure but I think so)

I’m pretty sure we are bound by Encyclicals.

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We are also bound by Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi

What we pray in our Liturgies is what is our beliefs. We do not pray something in our Liturgy which is optional belief. In the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches, every August 15th we pray the following “propers”

TROPAR (Tone 1)

O Mother of God, in giving birth you still preserved your virginity; and in your falling asleep you did not forsake the world. You are the Mother of Life and have been transferred to life, and through your prayers have delivered our souls from death.

KONDAK (Tone 2)

The grave and death did not detain the Mother of God. She prays perpetually and is our unfailing hope of intercession; for He who dwelt in the womb of the ever-Virgin, transferred to life the Mother of Life.

So does the Church teach that Mary died? Yes. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. Unless you want to claim that the Eastern Church and Western Church have different beliefs.
 
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