Mary, co-redeemer and co-mediator

[Mickey]

Max Kolbe:

justaccord:

The problem with this fella(s) I will tell you all HONESTLY…look back over all the replies in this thread, has he answered ONE question with *any *

intelligence or has he said anything of any substance? I dialouged with him a good portion of the day yesterday and not once did I get ONE credible reply from him. All of the issues brought up here have been presented to him over and over and I cannot find any evidence that he is listening or responding to what people are saying. I cannot find any evidence he comprehends our faith. He is the most frustarting type of Prot because he raises accusations,*** does not read what you have taken the time to respond with*** and before you can blink an eye he’s onto the next accusation. As an ex-prot, this type of thing is very common within the sola scriptura camp. He is the type of gentleman who spends all his time reading the “Lorraine Bottners” of the world and frequenting anti-catholic websites and has no understanding of his heritage. His leather bound bible appeared out of the thin air he would have us believe. I would say unless these people start COHESIVELY answering questions we are all spinning our wheels. Just my two cents…

You are absolutely correct Max. But hey, I guess it sharpens our apologetics skills. These A/C’s don’t know it, but they are helping us to respond truthfully to those in the marketplace that may have similar false understandings as themselves!

 

[Titanites]

Mickey:

I guess it sharpens our apologetics skills.

And more importantly, it gets the correct answers to their questions out there for any lurkers to see and get the truth.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

Mickey:

Max Kolbe:

You are absolutely correct Max. But hey, I guess it sharpens our apologetics skills. These A/C’s don’t know it, but they are helping us to respond truthfully to those in the marketplace that may have similar false understandings as themselves!

Yeah I agree. I think we just get spoiled here at the forum with intelligent dialouge (for the most part) with folks both Protestant/ Catholic (others) who know how to cohesively dialouge, actually listen to what you have to say and are willing to learn and impart the knowledge they have in a way that is friendly and engaging.

When I see these behaviors displayed, I have to thank God over and over that I’m Catholic where I find brilliant philosophy and gifted thinkers, lecturers, theologians and historians. Remind me my brothers and sisters to be loving toward these folks, to not become bogged down in the anger they bring but to be charitable and compassionate yet firm with them. This is a hard balance and takes lots of prayer and contemplation on our Lord’s passon. So again I extend my forgiveness to these folks, ask God to humble my heart and give me wisdom with thoughts and words. keep the faith brothers and sisters!

 

[Max_Kolbe]

Titanites:

And more importantly, it gets the correct answers to their questions out there for any lurkers to see and get the truth.

Yes, good point. I think we fall into the trap of being correct for our own benefit which is terrrible pride. I think this sort of thing really needs to be tempored with a healthy prayer life to maintain spiritual balance.

 

[DeFide]

justaccord:

DeFide:

Isn’t it amazing, though that with all those individual interpretations and all those denominations, we can all agree that Mariology is a human invention, that our faith is solely by grace and not works, that justification is by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone, that the Word of God is the ultimate authority, that the 10 commandments include the 2nd, and that a host of other things in catholic doctrine are contrary to the Word of God.

Protestants aren’t unanimous on ANY of those points!

(Catholics do believe in salvation through grace alone and all the commandments, BTW)

PS: “alone” doesn’t mean “with” or “in addition to” (is it faith, grace, or Christ?.. for another thread.)

 

[bjcros]

I have no doubt that Mary is favored. However, the only part she plays in our salvation was the birth of her son. She wasn’t involved beyond that point. She wasn’t sinless. I know for sure she didn’t die for our sins. Therefore she couldn’t be a co-redeemer. I don’t think that she is an intecessor nor any of the saints. It is not the same as praying for each other when you pray to them. Even if they are intecessors, why would you want to go to them, when you can go to the source? Jesus came to be our redeemer, and mediator. I don’t think that he needs any assistance. There is only one redeemer. Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”(John 14:6) She isn’t a co-mediator, and she isn’t a co-redeemer.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

bjcros:

I have no doubt that Mary is favored. However, the only part she plays in our salvation was the birth of her son. She wasn’t involved beyond that point. She wasn’t sinless. I know for sure she didn’t die for our sins. Therefore she couldn’t be a co-redeemer. I don’t think that she is an intecessor nor any of the saints. It is not the same as praying for each other when you pray to them. Even if they are intecessors, why would you want to go to them, when you can go to the source? Jesus came to be our redeemer, and mediator. I don’t think that he needs any assistance. There is only one redeemer. Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”(John 14:6) She isn’t a co-mediator, and she isn’t a co-redeemer.

You’ll have to do better than that, this will not cut it. You have said nothing of substance you understand. We hear these opinions all day long, but I guess sola-scriptura lends you only the option of opinion anyhow. You need to provide scripture ( I might add in context) historical support (in context) or any theological insight you have that will add substance to your “opinions” undertsnad? With that welcome!

 

[bjcros]

DeFide:

justaccord:

Protestants aren’t unanimous on ANY of those points!

(Catholics do believe in salvation through grace alone and all the commandments, BTW)

PS: “alone” doesn’t mean “with” or “in addition to” (is it faith, grace, or Christ?.. for another thread.)

Actually one of the few things Protestants are united in is that the Catholic Church is wrong. Also I think that most Protestants have a farely close view with each other at least on Mary.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

bjcros:

I have no doubt that Mary is favored. However, the only part she plays in our salvation was the birth of her son. She wasn’t involved beyond that point. She wasn’t sinless. I know for sure she didn’t die for our sins. Therefore she couldn’t be a co-redeemer. I don’t think that she is an intecessor nor any of the saints. It is not the same as praying for each other when you pray to them. Even if they are intecessors, why would you want to go to them, when you can go to the source? Jesus came to be our redeemer, and mediator. I don’t think that he needs any assistance. There is only one redeemer. Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”(John 14:6) She isn’t a co-mediator, and she isn’t a co-redeemer.

Also, you should start usuing the scriptural mandate (given to the Blessed Mother by the Holy Spirit) of calling her “Blessed”…This is the least you can do to show you love the Blessed Virgin Mary correct?

 

[bjcros]

Max Kolbe:

Also, you should start usuing the scriptural mandate (given to the Blessed Mother by the Holy Spirit) of calling her “Blessed”…This is the least you can do to show you love the Blessed Virgin Mary correct?

I don’t know of Mary being referred to as “Blessed.” I do know of her being referred to as “favored.” She does deserve respect. I think I gave it to her.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

bjcros:

I don’t know of Mary being referred to as “Blessed.” I do know of her being referred to as “favored.” She does deserve respect. I think I gave it to her.

Oops…need to crack open that Bible more before hastily speaking:

Luke 1:48

Luke 1:45

Luke 1:42

“Behold, from now on *all *ages *shall *call be blessed”…

It’s a good time to start don’t ya think?

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

bjcros:

…It is not the same as praying for each other when you pray to them [the Saints]…

Correct. Our praying for each other is not the same thing as when we pray to the Saints.

Our praying for each other is the same thing as when the Saints pray for us.

Our praying to the Saints is the same thing as when we ask other people to pray for us.

bjcros:

…Even if they are intecessors, why would you want to go to them, when you can go to the source?..

For the same reasons that you might ask me to pray for you, or that I might ask you to pray for me. Asking another to pray for you in no way prevents you from “going to the source” yourself.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

bjcros:

I don’t know of Mary being referred to as “Blessed.” I do know of her being referred to as “favored.” She does deserve respect. I think I gave it to her.

Yes…show her honor because by her “yes” to the angel Gabriel Jesus Christ came into the world, took on her FLESH and BLOOD and brought us redemption. Yes, I think she has earned your so called “respect”…

 

[Max_Kolbe]

bjcros:

I have no doubt that Mary is favored. However, the only part she plays in our salvation was the birth of her son. She wasn’t involved beyond that point. She wasn’t sinless. I know for sure she didn’t die for our sins. Therefore she couldn’t be a co-redeemer. I don’t think that she is an intecessor nor any of the saints. It is not the same as praying for each other when you pray to them. Even if they are intecessors, why would you want to go to them, when you can go to the source? Jesus came to be our redeemer, and mediator. I don’t think that he needs any assistance. There is only one redeemer. Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”(John 14:6) She isn’t a co-mediator, and she isn’t a co-redeemer.

The funny thin is “Luther” the man who brought you “sola-scriptura” and added to the Bible with the words “Faith Alone” was in disagreement with you on the Blessed Mother:

***It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.

---

(Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” December ?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 5http://www.talkingtruth.org/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_cool.gif

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.

(Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)

 

[bjcros]

Max Kolbe:

Yes…show her honor because by her “yes” to the angel Gabriel Jesus Christ came into the world, took on her FLESH and BLOOD and brought us redemption. Yes, I think she has earned your so called “respect”…

She did nothing to earn my respect, but rather it was God.

 

[bjcros]

Max Kolbe:

The funny thin is “Luther” the man who brought you “sola-scriptura” and added to the Bible with the words “Faith Alone” was in disagreement with you on the Blessed Mother:

***It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin. ***

---

(Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” December ?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 5http://www.talkingtruth.org/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_cool.gif

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.

(Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)

I don’t see scriptural evidence for the belief that she was sinless. I am a protestant and I know alot of protestants, most of them would also disagree with Luther or anyone else. It is interesting that if she actually was sinless that it would be in the Bible(but it isn’t). That seems like something that God would put in the Bible.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

bjcros:

She did nothing to earn my respect, but rather it was God.

Oh ouch…! What an incredible statement. She was just a disposable body, thrown away when done with, just a carrier. Do you see how ridicoulous this is? I think Protestism leads to a type of “gnosticism” in many respects (flesh bad, spirit good). It’s not a real healthy balance to think that the woman God “chose” before time to carry the Savior of the world, the one He santified (over shadowed and filled with the Holy Spirit) before the church age, and set apart to be His Mother, to raise him from infancy, if this is not worthy of honor than I fear what spirit you may be listening to…

 

[mercygate]

bjcros:

I am a protestant and I know alot of protestants, most of them would also disagree with Luther or anyone else…

You should have taken the Fifth. The defense rests.

 

[Titanites]

bjcros:

That seems like something that God would put in the Bible.

He did. You can’t be full of grace and sinful.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

bjcros:

I don’t see scriptural evidence for the belief that she was sinless. I am a protestant and I know alot of protestants, most of them would also disagree with Luther or anyone else. It is interesting that if she actually was sinless that it would be in the Bible(but it isn’t). That seems like something that God would put in the Bible.

Luther defended the Blessed Mother from “scripture”
was he wrong in his interpetation?