Mary, co-redeemer and co-mediator

[justaccord]

bengeorge:

No, Christ promised that it wouldn’t.

Matt. 16:18, the Church that Christ builds will not be destroyed or prevailed against by Hell.

Research history, what Church can claim direct links going back to Christ?

If the Catholic Church is now wrong, as you contend, then Hell has indeed beaten it, and Christ broke His promise.

I don’t believe He would.

That’s because Christ, clearly and explicitly, was the incarnate Word, consistently preached and proclaimed the Word of the Old Testament, and commanded His followers to test all things against Scripture. He condemned the words of men, and talked instead the Word of God. You do the opposite.

True, the Church of Jesus Christ will stand against even Hell. That is because it elevates, as He did, the Word to the primary position of authority in all matters of faith and practice.

 

[justaccord]

Joseph Bilodeau:

Correct. Our praying for each other is not the same thing as when we pray to the Saints.

Our praying for each other is the same thing as when the Saints pray for us.

Our praying to the Saints is the same thing as when we ask other people to pray for us.

For the same reasons that you might ask me to pray for you, or that I might ask you to pray for me. Asking another to pray for you in no way prevents you from “going to the source” yourself.

Based on intercessory prayer you are advancing a doctrine which is really contrary to Marian doctrine. Catechism #969 does not say that we are all mediators – it says that Mary is co-mediatrix. Obviously, there is a distinction between Mary and all the other dead saints.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

mercygate:

You should have taken the Fifth. The defense rests.

So if Luther, Calvin and Zwingli cannot be trusted completely don’t you think that throws the whole “reform” idea of scripture alone into question? Luther knew it did not work, as soon as folks started revolting from “his undersatnding” of the bible the drowings began correct? Calvin and the Anabaptists the same thing. What “right” based on sola-scriptura did they have to question anyone else ideas about the scriptures since they themselves gave license for a world of “mini-popes” all claiming to have a truer understanding? And for you gentleman, what authority do you have to question any other interpetation of scripture* that may contradict your lofty opinion?*

 

[justaccord]

Max Kolbe:

Yes…show her honor because by her “yes” to the angel Gabriel Jesus Christ came into the world, took on her FLESH and BLOOD and brought us redemption. Yes, I think she has earned your so called “respect”…

No, Mary did not bring us redemption any more than Adam, or David, or Joseph did.

Redemption was brought by God and it is offered by faith alone through grace alone in Jesus Christ alone. Christ is the One Who died on the cross to save us, not Mary. She plays no more of a role in redemption than Ruth, or Boaz, or many others.

Indeed, Mary is blessed BY GOD, not that she is a special blessing TO God. Nowhere does Scripture say that Mary was any different than the rest of us. She was chosen by God for an incredibly blessed mission. And in spite of the fact that it was painful and difficult, it was extremely important. Therefore God blessed her, not the other way around

 

[Max_Kolbe]

justaccord:

Based on intercessory prayer you are advancing a doctrine which is really contrary to Marian doctrine. Catechism #969 does not say that we are all mediators – it says that Mary is co-mediatrix. Obviously, there is a distinction between Mary and all the other dead saints.

Make sure you add paragraph #970 son for context, we went over this last night and you left me hanging. You cannot read the cathechism like you read your bible.

 

[Mickey]

bjcros:

She did nothing to earn my respect

I weep for you. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_1_3.gif

 

[DeFide]

bjcros:

DeFide:

Actually one of the few things Protestants are united in is that the Catholic Church is wrong. Also I think that most Protestants have a farely close view with each other at least on Mary.

Which just goes to show the invalidity of Sola Scriptura as the authoritative rule of faith. Even each denomination has a different defintion of Sola Scriptura, but this thread is not about that, so I digress.

 

[justaccord]

Mickey:

justaccord:

Correction, only angry anti-Catholics say that. But you see, I am an optimist. I believe that you are here on this Catholic forum because somewhere deep inside of yourself you know that the one , holy, Catholic and apostolic church, is

the Catholic Church. And the spiritual warfare rages on inside of your very being because satan wants to keep you in your ignorance. Hang in there my friend. Your insults and attacks will only get worse because satan rejects all that is Holy. We all forgive you. You know not what you do.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_3_15.gif

Do you know what an ad hominem attack is? Don’t you know that if the best you can do is personally attack the person making an argument, it doesnt say much for the substance of your response (if you have one)… Try the issues instead of the people. I could call you children of darkness, but to what avail? I am discussing your doctrine, not you personally or even the condition of your soul.

 

[Doihavtasay]

justaccord:

DeFide:

Isn’t it amazing, though that with all those individual interpretations and all those denominations, we can all agree that Mariology is a human invention, that our faith is solely by grace and not works, that justification is by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone, that the Word of God is the ultimate authority, that the 10 commandments include the 2nd, and that a host of other things in catholic doctrine are contrary to the Word of God.

Now you know that is not totally true at all. Obviously the orignal Prots didn’t believe that Mariology was a human invention. that changed. I have on my shelf The Practical Works of Richard Baxter Vol 1, and I have often wondered why he wrote such volumes on how to live sinlessly if our ‘works’ didn’t matter. What we say and how we live are two totally different matters for the prot. I think we call it ‘fruit picking’ instead of ‘works’. And of course not all prot denoms agree, some think you can live in sin and still be forgiven with out repenting or changing your habits.
If the Word of God is the ultimate authority, where does that leave elders in a doctrinal dispute? According to the OPC you are supposed to submit to the Church authority, but in reality ,we just leave and join a different church. And of course what happens over all is there are NO rules cause no one can agree on what they are.

The Lutherans don’t agree the 2nd commandment forbides statues and images of Jesus. Been to an orthodox Lutheran Church lately? Likely to think you are in a Catholic Church for a minute.

I agree with the others that there is no agreement in the Prots world. You can never be sure who is interpeting the Bible in a biblical fashion or not.
Our church always used Calvin as the ‘pope’, the Lutherans used Luther and so on…everyone uses someone.

 

[justaccord]

bjcros:

I don’t see scriptural evidence for the belief that she was sinless. I am a protestant and I know alot of protestants, most of them would also disagree with Luther or anyone else. It is interesting that if she actually was sinless that it would be in the Bible(but it isn’t). That seems like something that God would put in the Bible.

That’s because there is no such evidence in the Bible. Jesus put the matter fully and finally to rest in Luke 8:19 Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. 20 And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those twho hear the word of God and do it.”

Mary was on exactly the same footing as all other sinners. She needed redemption every bit as much as we all do. There was only One sinless One throughout all of history.

 

[Mickey]

justaccord:

Redemption was brought by God and it is offered by faith alone through grace alone in Jesus Christ alone.

I believe that we are saved by grace through faith- and our good works are the fruit of that faith. Where do you get this **“by faith alone through grace alone”? **

 

[deb1]

bjcros:

She did nothing to earn my respect, but rather it was God.

Do you believe that Mary had free will? Could she have refused to allow God to implant Jesus in her womb? I ask these questions because Mary agreed to bring Jesus into the world. She could have said no. That is why she should have your respect-even if you don’t give her the status that Catholics do.

 

[Mickey]

justaccord:

Mickey:

Do you know what an ad hominem attack is? Don’t you know that if the best you can do is personally attack the person making an argument, it doesnt say much for the substance of your response (if you have one)… Try the issues instead of the people. I could call you children of darkness, but to what avail? I am discussing your doctrine, not you personally or even the condition of your soul.

That was far from a personal attack. (yes I know what ad hominem is). My statement was one of hope and joy, because the spiritual warfare that is raging in your soul I believe is bringing you closer to the Catholic Church. Rejoice my good friend–you’re on your way home.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

justaccord:

Based on intercessory prayer you are advancing a doctrine which is really contrary to Marian doctrine. Catechism #969 does not say that we are all mediators – it says that Mary is co-mediatrix. Obviously, there is a distinction between Mary and all the other dead saints.

Not contrary at all. We are all called to intercede (mediate) for each other. Mary is given the distinct title of Co-mediatrix in recognition of the superlative way in which she answered God’s call. We don’t get an official title, so what? When considered in relation to Christ the Mediator, the difference in Mary’s mediation as Co-mediatrix and our no-name mediation is more of a difference in degree than a difference in kind.

Oh, also, the Saints in Heaven aren’t dead. Being no longer subject to death, and in the presence of Life Himself, they are more alive than you and I.

 

[justaccord]

mercygate:

You should have taken the Fifth. The defense rests.

So when people on this website say they are catholic but they disagree with the catechism or the pronouncements of John Paul II should they take the 5th too?

Does a disagreement with Luther invalidate the Christian faith?

Please explain how.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

justaccord:

…he [sic] answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those twho hear the word of God and do it.”…

One who heard the Word of God and did it. That sounds like a good description of Mary.

 

[justaccord]

Mickey:

justaccord:

That was far from a personal attack. (yes I know what ad hominem is). My statement was one of hope and joy, because the spiritual warfare that is raging in your soul I believe is bringing you closer to the Catholic Church. Rejoice my good friend–you’re on your way home.

Well, then, I’ll take it as a well-meant ad hominem attack. But seriously, why not respond to the doctrine. The collective summation of the catholics on this forum is:

1. You are mean (and probably ugly and need a shower, if I isogete a little without claiming to be infallible)
2. You are ignorant, so you should shut up and read thousands of pages of pat answers where we’ve already refuted your argument
3. You’re out of line in one or another or another way.

Really clever way of changing the subject. Yes, I know you’ve heard it all before. Yes you can refute everything said in the Word of God (so could the Pharisees by the way). Yes, you have glib answers. But maybe some who are watching will see the semantic gyrations, hear the “spin” and actually go with teh Bereans to the Scriptures to see if these things are so.

Meantime, why don’t you respond to the doctrine instead of with (even well-intentioned) ad hominems. It really does show a lack of substance to your side.

 

[justaccord]

deb1:

Do you believe that Mary had free will? Could she have refused to allow God to implant Jesus in her womb? I ask these questions because Mary agreed to bring Jesus into the world. She could have said no. That is why she should have your respect-even if you don’t give her the status that Catholics do.

Where do you get free will out of the Bible. Maybe you should do a little research on Augustine and Pelagius. Free will was settled (even in your doctrine) a long time ago.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

justaccord:

That’s because there is no such evidence in the Bible. Jesus put the matter fully and finally to rest in Luke 8:19 Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. 20 And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those twho hear the word of God and do it.”

Mary was on exactly the same footing as all other sinners. She needed redemption every bit as much as we all do. There was only One sinless One throughout all of history.

How many times to we have to go over the same ground, I am really convinced more than ever that you read nothing folks here write. It’s shameful and for any one observing take note how many times we answer the same queston. Let’s go over this scripture once again. Firstly, Jesus cannot deny His Mother because by doing so he would be breaking one of the Ten Commandments. So we know he is not denying Mary as His mother or rebuking her. Secondly, what evades your *limited undertsanding of this passge is that by *Mary’s yes to Gabriel and obediance to the will of God, she ushers in the age of the Christ. She obey’s God and concieves in her womb Jesus. Jesus is not rebuking Mary here, that would be ridicoulous and demeaning agree?He was simply saying those who hear the word of God and obey it (implying His Mother) would be called his brothers and mother. He had no reason to rebuke for she was completely obediant to Gods will correct?

How does your comment here:

Mary was on exactly the same footing as all other sinners. She needed redemption every bit as much as we all do. There was only One sinless One throughout all of history

Fit with this passage? Please show me scriptures to that Mary was a sinner…

 

[DeFide]

Some here perhaps aren’t interested in hearing the Catholic defense or are closed to it, but for latecomers who missed it, I’ll re-post this by Fr. Serpa:

Dear Un,

The Church does not teach that we are redeemed by Mary. That would be heresy. It is important to realize that co-redemptrix does not mean co-equal. She co-operated in His mission of redeeming the world. He alone is the redeemer. She co-operated by the fact that the Father chose her to be the channel through which His Son entered the human race. She gave birth to Him and sustained Him through His childhood until adulthood. This is truly co-operation and this is all that is really meant by “co-redemptrix.” Because it is so easy to misunderstand this term, the Church has not made it an official title.
…]
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/biblecheatsheet.html

If you mediate when you pray for someone as part of God’s body/family you are a mediator. Seems logical to me. It’s also quite Biblical:

Intercessory Prayer of Saints
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
*Saints dead, what about necromancy (Dt 18:10-11)
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.

*1Tim 2:5 - “One mediator between God and man”
1Tim 2:1-7 - offer prayers, petitions for all men
1Pet 2:5 - be a holy priesthood to offer sacrifices through Christ
Mk 10:18 - only God is good (see next)
Mt 25:23 - well done my good and faithful servant
Jn 10:11-16 - I am good shepherd; one flock I shepherd (see next)
Jn 21:15-16 - feed my lambs, tend my sheep
Eph 4:11 - He gave some as apostles…others as pastors
Heb 3:1, 7:24, 9:12-13 - Jesus eternal high priest; one sacrifice (see next)
Rev 1:6, 5:10 - He made us a kingdom of priests for God

Jesus, being both God and man is uniquely a mediator between God and man. This does not mean that other types of mediation are impossible.

Similarly, God is the creator of all, yet he allows us to be creative in many subordinate ways to give glory to God.