Mary, co-redeemer and co-mediator

[justaccord]

Joseph Bilodeau:

One who heard the Word of God and did it. That sounds like a good description of Mary.

I think there is finally something we can agree on. You notice it says mother AND BROTHERS. Not just mother. Not a special category for mother we can make images of and bow down to.

Mary was indeed obedient. And she was indeed blessed, not because of her works, but because of God’s choice of her for this most important mission. Mary is of course deserving of respect. But the blessed Mary, the one who deserves respect is the Mary of the Bible, not the one of human imagination. And Joseph also deserves respect- – he did not divorce her. He was obedient to. And Zecharias also deserves respect – he obeyed and named his son John (and obeyed in other ways) And Abraham deserves respect – he stepped out in faith and in obedience. In fact Hebrews 11 refers to a number of those who deserve respect – and you can find them on almost every page of the Bible. But we dont bow down and worship them, nor are they called co-redeemers or co-mediators in your doctrine, although some of you are arguing they might as well have been

 

[Mickey]

justaccord:

Mickey:

Well, then, I’ll take it as a well-meant ad hominem attack. But seriously, why not respond to the doctrine. The collective summation of the catholics on this forum is:

1. You are mean (and probably ugly and need a shower, if I isogete a little without claiming to be infallible)
2. You are ignorant, so you should shut up and read thousands of pages of pat answers where we’ve already refuted your argument
3. You’re out of line in one or another or another way.

Really clever way of changing the subject. Yes, I know you’ve heard it all before. Yes you can refute everything said in the Word of God (so could the Pharisees by the way). Yes, you have glib answers. But maybe some who are watching will see the semantic gyrations, hear the “spin” and actually go with teh Bereans to the Scriptures to see if these things are so.

Meantime, why don’t you respond to the doctrine instead of with (even well-intentioned) ad hominems. It really does show a lack of substance to your side.

It’s all been responded to and refuted my good friend. Over and over again. Are you reading other posts. You seem to repeat yourself often. BTW if it’s well intentioned, it’s not an ad hominem attack. Perhaps you can call it an ad hominem prayer.

P.S–Is that really true that you are ugly and in need of a shower? :bigyikes:

 

[deb1]

justaccord:

That’s because there is no such evidence in the Bible. Jesus put the matter fully and finally to rest in Luke 8:19 Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. 20 And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those twho hear the word of God and do it.”

Mary was on exactly the same footing as all other sinners. She needed redemption every bit as much as we all do. There was only One sinless One throughout all of history.

I tried to answer this in post # 34. Maybe I didn’t do a good job.
SO here goes one more time. Do you think that Jesus could break the commandments? In the bible dishonoring your parents is a big no, no.

Jesus spoke in hyperbole. Meaning that he said extreme things to make a point. None of us cut off our hand or poke out our eyes. Yet Jesus said to do that. Luckily, we are smart enough to understand that he didn’t mean us to take him literally.

If I took the verses that you quote literally, then I could start coining ‘mother of Jesus for myself.’ Hey, that verse says that if I believe in him and hear his words that I’m his mom. That sounds silly to the point of stupidity, but it does prove the point that the verse can’t be taken at face value.

 

[justaccord]

DeFide:

Some here perhaps aren’t interested in hearing the Catholic defense or are closed to it, but for latecomers who missed it, I’ll re-post this by Fr. Serpa:

. . . .

OK. Now we have two utterly inconsistent explanations of the use of the term co-redemptrix. One is that she doesnt have that title at all, it is not part of official Catholic doctrine, just because the pope said it doesn’t make it official, etc. The other is Fr Serpa’s

Which one is doctrine?

 

[DeFide]

justaccord:

But we dont bow down and worship them, nor are they called co-redeemers or co-mediators in your doctrine, although some of you are arguing they might as well have been

Worship? After all the responses you got? I guess you are just here to repeat falsehoods about the faith.

 

[Mickey]

justaccord:

Mary was indeed obedient. And she was indeed blessed, not because of her works, but because of God’s choice of her for this most important mission.

Alright, you’re comin around now. Obedience is key!

Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.

 

[deb1]

justaccord:

Where do you get free will out of the Bible. Maybe you should do a little research on Augustine and Pelagius. Free will was settled (even in your doctrine) a long time ago.

So now I have to wonder about your beliefs. Are you a Calvanist? You don’t believe in free will? Or do you not believe in free will in regards to Mary? If you mean only in regard to Mary, do you think that God forced himself on her?

 

[Max_Kolbe]

justaccord:

Where do you get free will out of the Bible. Maybe you should do a little research on Augustine and Pelagius. Free will was settled (even in your doctrine) a long time ago.

Maybe you could show us the quotes you are referring to so we would have something to work with. You still have not shown us in your “thousands of pages” any substance, only smoke and mirrors.

 

[justaccord]

Max Kolbe:

How many times to we have to go over the same ground, I am really convinced more than ever that you read nothing folks here write. It’s shameful and for any one observing take note how many times we answer the same queston. Let’s go over this scripture once again. Firstly, Jesus cannot deny His Mother because by doing so he would be breaking one of the Ten Commandments. So we know he is not denying Mary as His mother or rebuking her. Secondly, what evades your *limited undertsanding of this passge is that by *Mary’s yes to Gabriel and obediance to the will of God, she ushers in the age of the Christ. She obey’s God and concieves in her womb Jesus. Jesus is not rebuking Mary here, that would be ridicoulous and demeaning agree?He was simply saying those who hear the word of God and obey it (implying His Mother) would be called his brothers and mother. He had no reason to rebuke for she was completely obediant to Gods will correct?

How does your comment here:

Mary was on exactly the same footing as all other sinners. She needed redemption every bit as much as we all do. There was only One sinless One throughout all of history

Fit with this passage? Please show me scriptures to that Mary was a sinner…

Rom 3.23
Show me some passages that say she was sinless – a claim that ONLY ONE who ever lived on earth can make.

 

[Milliardo]

justaccord:

Based on intercessory prayer you are advancing a doctrine which is really contrary to Marian doctrine. Catechism #969 does not say that we are all mediators – it says that Mary is co-mediatrix. Obviously, there is a distinction between Mary and all the other dead saints.

Wrong. Mary is only highlighted as an example; it does not necessarily mean we are not co-mediators with Christ.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

justaccord:

…Mary is of course deserving of respect… And Joseph also deserves respect- – he did not divorce her. He was obedient to. And Zecharias also deserves respect – he obeyed and named his son John (and obeyed in other ways) And Abraham deserves respect – he stepped out in faith and in obedience. In fact Hebrews 11 refers to a number of those who deserve respect – and you can find them on almost every page of the Bible…

By George, I think you’ve got it! That’s a perfect description of dulia-the honor due to the Saints as understood by the Catholic Church.

justaccord:

…But we dont bow down and worship them…

Right again! We don’t.

justaccord:

…nor are they called co-redeemers or co-mediators in your doctrine, although some of you are arguing they might as well have been

Right again! Mary is not called a co-redeemer, she is called Co-redemptrix (feminine). The rest of us get by without any titles, as you correctly observe, while trying to remain faithful to our call from God to intercede for each other. Isn’t it great when people get it right?

 

[Milliardo]

justaccord:

Rom 3.23
Show me some passages that say she was sinless – a claim that ONLY ONE who ever lived on earth can make.

Show us where in the Bible that everything should be there.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

justaccord:

I think there is finally something we can agree on. You notice it says mother AND BROTHERS. Not just mother. Not a special category for mother we can make images of and bow down to.

Mary was indeed obedient. And she was indeed blessed, not because of her works, but because of God’s choice of her for this most important mission. Mary is of course deserving of respect. But the blessed Mary, the one who deserves respect is the Mary of the Bible, not the one of human imagination. And Joseph also deserves respect- – he did not divorce her. He was obedient to. And Zecharias also deserves respect – he obeyed and named his son John (and obeyed in other ways) And Abraham deserves respect – he stepped out in faith and in obedience. In fact Hebrews 11 refers to a number of those who deserve respect – and you can find them on almost every page of the Bible. But we dont bow down and worship them, nor are they called co-redeemers or co-mediators in your doctrine, although some of you are arguing they might as well have been

So she was being prideful when she said…" from henceforth All generations* shall* call be blessed"? It would seem strange for you to wake up and exclaim to yourself, “from this day on all generations shall call me blessed” don’t ya think? Or take her cousin Elizabeth for instance," What is it that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?" I assume they had always known each other being family…so what made her different? Why would Elizabeth would praise a young Jewsih girl who happened to be her cousin? Could you please explain that to me?

 

[Max_Kolbe]

Joseph Bilodeau:

By George, I think you’ve got it! That’s a perfect description of dulia-the honor due to the Saints as understood by the Catholic Church.

Right again! We don’t.

Right again! Mary is not called a co-redeemer, she is called Co-redemptrix (feminine). The rest of us get by without any titles, as you correctly observe, while trying to remain faithful to our call from God to intercede for each other. Isn’t it great when people get it right?

Amen! Again, this fella does not read so things “get by him easily”…

 

[justaccord]

Max Kolbe:

So she was being prideful when she said…" from henceforth All generations* shall* call be blessed"? It would seem strange for you to wake up and exclaim to yourself, “from this day on all generations shall call me blessed” don’t ya think? Or take her cousin Elizabeth for instance," What is it that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?" I assume they had always known each other being family…so what made her different? Why would Elizabeth would praise a young Jewsih girl who happened to be her cousin? Could you please explain that to me?

No I dont think Mary was trying to start cult worship of herself. She appreciated that she was blessed. God’s angel called her blessed. And she knew and was grateful to God that henceforth she would known as blessed, as indeed she is.

Can you people not accept grace as a gift from God – does it have to be Mary’s works at issue here. Blessed means that she received a blessing. She was the mother of the only perfect, sinless human being who ever lived, the Messiah, the Redeemer. It’s a no-brainer.

 

[justaccord]

Milliardo:

Show us where in the Bible that everything should be there.

Changing the subject so fast?

Given up on the sinlessness of Mary have we?

 

[justaccord]

Milliardo:

Wrong. Mary is only highlighted as an example; it does not necessarily mean we are not co-mediators with Christ.

WELL ARE WE?

The question is not that difficult guys. Could you please answer it? You have an answer for every question and you’ve heard these things many times before . . .

 

[justaccord]

Max Kolbe:

Amen! Again, this fella does not read so things “get by him easily”…

Ignorant, opinionated and stupid. I guess I wont get into heaven by my works, hunh?

But you?

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

justaccord:

…Can you people not accept grace as a gift from God…

Yes, absolutely.

justaccord:

…Blessed means that she received a blessing. She was the mother of the only perfect, sinless human being who ever lived, the Messiah, the Redeemer…

Yes, absolutely, with the understanding that Mary is also sinless, while not Messiah and not Redeemer in any primary sense.

justaccord:

…It’s a no-brainer.

Yes, absolutely.

So… how is this supposed to be a refutation of Mary’s role as intercessor for us?

 

[deb1]

justaccord:

WELL ARE WE?

The question is not that difficult guys. Could you please answer it? You have an answer for every question and you’ve heard these things many times before . . .

Could you first answer my question on free will? You seemed to indicate that you either didn’t believe in it or you didn’t believe that Mary had a choice in bearing Jesus? You’ve confused me-probably not hard to do - and I would like that cleared up.