Mary, co-redeemer and co-mediator

[Salmon]

justaccord:

Ignorant, opinionated and stupid. I guess I wont get into heaven by my works, hunh?

But you?

Since you were a Catholic for 20 years (and studied the teachings of the Catholic Church so diligently for that time), you are well aware that the Catholic Church proclaimed ‘salvation by works’ a heresy at the Council of Carthage in 481 A.D.

See:
Pelagius and Pelagianism

Yet, you hold yourself up as informed as to Catholic teachings.

If you post long enough, you may actually post one dogma correctly. “An infinite number of typewriters and an infinite number of…”

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[pnewton]

justaccord:

Since God gave the truth to the Israelites, and their duly appointed spiritual leaders twisted and distorted it by elevating tradition over the Word of God, could the same thing happen again after Christ came?

Do you not remember Jesus tellin His disciples that one reason He must go to the Father is so that the comforter may come. This third person of the Holy Trinity is the one who would lead them, the foundation of His church, into all truth. If you think the mission of the Holy Spirit failed and the Church got twisted into apostasy, when do you think this happened? Pick a date, any date, and study what the Church was like prior to that time.

If you go only as far as the last writing of the New Testament, then the Holy Spirit failed, and I do not buy that.

 

[deb1]

I was just thinking…It seems strange to me that two posters who both seem to use the same tactics, arrive at our forum on the same day. This despite the fact that many other solascriptura Protestants have managed to have polite, albeit annoying, conversations with us. Just seems strange to me.

Oh, by the way under the scripture section of the forum, my son-wolfhunter(actually Josh)-asked a question on scripture that I couldn’t answer. Could one of you go over there and answer his question. Its on Matthew.

I will stay on topic, I promise. Didn’t mean to change subjects. Sorry.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Doihavtasay:

Very intelligent response. Wow… that really convinced me NOT to go Mass next Sunday.

Did you even read the quotes? How could you disagree with Jerome or Augustine!?!?

They had their own disagreements - and the Church at large rejected ideas taught by both of them, while not rejecting others.​

They are anything but inerrant - yet their errors do not make their writings valueless.

St. Thomas Aquinas disagrees with them on occasion - as he was entitled to. Theology involves a lot of disagreement: the Fathers often correct one another, and are themselves corrected by later generations. This is inseparable from growth in understanding of Who Christ is. ##

Do you disagree that Mary is the New Eve?
What would be unBiblical about that title?

A possible objection is this: St. Paul’s contrast is between the First Adam, and the Last Adam Who is Christ; not between Adam & Eve, and Christ and Mary.​

IOW - where the inspired authors do not use an idea, are later uninspired Christians justified in using it ?

It’s a fair question - for we can’t substitute our own brilliant ideas for God’s Truth. That would be most impertinent ##

 

[pnewton]

justaccord:

, that justification is by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone, that the Word of God is the ultimate authority,.

See. Here are two traditional beliefs which are not explicitly in the Bible. Don’t believe it? Do a search on “faith alone” and “ultimate authority.”

 

[Genesis315]

pnewton:

See. Here are two traditional beliefs which are not explicitly in the Bible. Don’t believe it? Do a search on “faith alone” and “ultimate authority.”

Oh, the words “faith alone” are in the Bible. It’s right here: Jas. 2:24

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Max Kolbe:

Oh ouch…! What an incredible statement. She was just a disposable body, thrown away when done with, just a carrier. Do you see how ridicoulous this is? I think Protestism leads to a type of “gnosticism” in many respects (flesh bad, spirit good). It’s not a real healthy balance to think that the woman God “chose” before time to carry the Savior of the world, the one He santified (over shadowed and filled with the Holy Spirit) before the church age, and set apart to be His Mother, to raise him from infancy, if this is not worthy of honor than I fear what spirit you may be listening to…

IMO, bjcros wins on points ​

Mary could act at all, only because she had been chosen by God to act as she did - in herself, she is no different from us: she is not self-existent, she does not maintain herself in being, she is not the Author of the graces she received, she is not her own Redeemer or Saviour, she did not choose herself to be the mother of the Messiah.

Mary is “less than an atom, in comparison with God” - she is nearly nothing, of herself: just like us. She is even more indebted to Christ than we are. This is what we too often neglect, IMO.

In herself, Mary does no honour at all - she is honourable insofar as she is totally Christ’s. Her being His mother, is less important than that she had faith in Him, according to St. Augustine. Relationship to Christ depends on doing the Will of His Father in Heaven - not on ties of blood; those words in Luke 11 do rather seem to be neglected at times. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Genesis315:

Oh, the words “faith alone” are in the Bible. It’s right here: Jas. 2:24

The faith there described is a faith not “working through love” - it is not what St. Paul insists on. And it is a faith that is confined to words; not the faith Luther insisted on.​

 

[Mickey]

To everyone who participated in this thread:

It took longer than I expected, but the brutal anti-Catholics have been suspended. I believe they met eachother on the forum of a former “Christian” talk radio host who was just recently fired for Catholic bashing–a mostly protestant station to boot! The favorite past time of this former talk jock was bashing the Blessed Mother. Our A/C posters were having a ball over there and decided to bring their action over here. Everyone did a superb job of defending our Blessed Mother. I hope our suspended friends took the time to read some of your responses (although this is highly unlikely). But if they did, they may have come away with a better understanding regarding the Mother of God. I pray that a seed was planted that may mature one day so that the scales will fall from their eyes and they may see the truth. I’m very proud of all the faithful Catholics on this forum–I learn much from you all. I will defend our Blessed Mother, and the Mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ until my last breath–er, uh, I mean keystroke.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

## IMO, bjcros wins on points

Mary could act at all, only because she had been chosen by God to act as she did - in herself, she is no different from us: she is not self-existent, she does not maintain herself in being, she is not the Author of the graces she received, she is not her own Redeemer or Saviour, she did not choose herself to be the mother of the Messiah.

Mary is “less than an atom, in comparison with God” - she is nearly nothing, of herself: just like us. She is even more indebted to Christ than we are. This is what we too often neglect, IMO.

In herself, Mary does no honour at all - she is honourable insofar as she is totally Christ’s. Her being His mother, is less important than that she had faith in Him, according to St. Augustine. Relationship to Christ depends on doing the Will of His Father in Heaven - not on ties of blood; those words in Luke 11 do rather seem to be neglected at times. ##

…Than the statements “all generations shall call ME blessed”…and “My soul magifies the Lord”…seem rather presumptous do they not? Of course as the Cathechism states in paragraph #970 to paraphrase her unique vocation draws all it’s strength from the merits of Christ and in that sense we agree, but you are almost on the verge here of reducing her to nothing, when in fact Christ has raised her up (it being His will of course) and exalted her above all creatures don’t you agree? Her life revolves around glorifying her Son and her vocation is to lead all souls to Christ along this pilgrimage of faith agree and that is where her power lies, in her great humility! yes, absolelutely everything she is rests on Christ so we do not have contention here. She is as one author so eloquently put it, “God’s mystical garden where He loves to dwell”…

***“Mary could act at all, only because she had been chosen by God to act as she did - in herself, she is no different from us: she is not self-existent, she does not maintain herself in being, she is not the Author of the graces she received, she is not her own Redeemer or Saviour, she did not choose herself to be the mother of the Messiah.” ***

---

I never stated she chose to be the Mother of God so I am not sure what sparked this idea in your head. I agree fully and 100% with paragraph #970 in the Cathechism. I am with you there. But, to say that she is no different from us? I have to seriously disagree with you there unless you are not making your point clearly. She is the Immaculate Conception, are you? And yes, Christ is still her Savior we agree. Who else do you know that is sinless unless of course you deny her Immaculate Conception? She is “Perpetual Virgin”…She was assumed body and soul into heaven, what’s your point then, that God did not set her apart as special? That she deserves no honor? I don’t believe this is what you are saying but then again, I don’t really know who you are so I will let you respond.

 

[reen12]

Dear Doihavtasay,

“How could you disagree with Jerome or Augustine!?!?”
quote,Doihavtasay post #77

Simple.

I think, and then *say *the words:
“I do not agree with Jerome or Augustine.”

[on a particular point.]

reen12

"God’s Freelance "

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Max Kolbe:

…Than the statements “all generations shall call ME blessed”…and “My soul magifies the Lord”…seem rather presumptous do they not? Of course as the Cathechism states in paragraph #970 to paraphrase her unique vocation draws all it’s strength from the merits of Christ and in that sense we agree, but you are almost on the verge here of reducing her to nothing, when in fact Christ has raised her up (it being His will of course) and exalted her above all creatures don’t you agree? Her life revolves around glorifying her Son and her vocation is to lead all souls to Christ along this pilgrimage of faith agree and that is where her power lies, in her great humility! yes, absolelutely everything she is rests on Christ so we do not have contention here. She is as one author so eloquently put it, “God’s mystical garden where He loves to dwell”…

***“Mary could act at all, only because she had been chosen by God to act as she did - in herself, she is no different from us: she is not self-existent, she does not maintain herself in being, she is not the Author of the graces she received, she is not her own Redeemer or Saviour, she did not choose herself to be the mother of the Messiah.” ***

I never stated she chose to be the Mother of God so I am not sure what sparked this idea in your head.

Some speak as though she did a God a favour, as though she were not far more in His debt. I was addressing that​

I agree fully and 100% with paragraph #970 in the Cathechism. I am with you there. But, to say that she is no different from us?

In essence, no, she isn’t - only in receiving more. And who can take credit for God’s goodness to them ? She is after all a human being - which is what we are.​

I have to seriously disagree with you there unless you are not making your point clearly. She is the Immaculate Conception, are you?

Did she deserve to be ? Of course not. Could she deserve it ? How could she deserve anything, when she was yet to be conceived ? It is a grace - and grace cannot be deserved, or it is grace no longer. That, is the point.​

She, is saved on the same terms as we are - if not, there is one economy of salvation for her, and other for the rest of us. But nothing in Scripture even hints at a two-fold economy of salvation: Christ is the Saviour of the human race, both of Jews and Gentiles. He is the Head of a single united human race - not of a human race split into Mary, and Everyone Else.

Yet some such idea of a “1st-class” & “2nd-class” economy of salvation seems to underlie some thinking about her - and us. The idea simply divorces her from the human race.

I’m arguing with the subtle Pelagianism that seeks to treat God’s grace as something needy man can deserve as a right - I’m not denying Church teaching. ##

And yes, Christ is still her Savior we agree. Who else do you know that is sinless unless of course you deny her Immaculate Conception? She is “Perpetual Virgin”…She was assumed body and soul into heaven, what’s your point then, that God did not set her apart as special? That she deserves no honor? I don’t believe this is what you are saying but then again, I don’t really know who you are so I will let you respond.

I’ll be as clear as possible.​

Salvation is by grace - alone, from beginning to end.

She is a created being - therefore, wholly dependent on God for all that she is. As are we.

Therefore - there is absolutely no basis in her, of herself, for the position she occupies. Same for us.

[continue…]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…continue, ended]

Had it pleased God to act otherwise, any other woman one cares to think of could have been chosen: not because God is capricious - God is not capricious at all: all His works display His Mercy and Love and Wisdom - but because no creature can put God under any obligation: God chooses, because it is His Will so to do: not because there is anything in any of us to attract Him to any of us rather than to anyone else. So Mary had no claim on God’s favour - any more than any one else. The grace of predestination to a position in God’s purpose, is exactly that - a grace: that is, something with its source in the free, unforced, sovereign, generosity of God: not in our deserts, and not in any good in us: sice any good in us, is itself the gift of God. Which is why we have no claim on God’s goodness to incline him to us, rather than to anyone else.

Every privilege she has, is based ultimately on the grace of God. She could not deserve to be what the Bible says of her - but is those things. And yet, how can something created from nothing by God’s goodness deserve to be the predestined mother of the Messiah ?
ISTM that too often, thinking about Mary goes back only to Mary - not to the God on whom she depends for all she is, and has been made, Who is the Source of all her ability to do what is good.

Luk 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”

Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamine tree, ‘Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

Luk 17:7 "Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down at table’?

Luk 17:8 Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink’?

Luk 17:9 Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded?

Luk 17:10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’"

This holds for us - and for her. ##

 

[Mickey]

God chose to communicate with us through the Blessed Virgin Mary, and so it is proper that we may communicate to God through her. For the Word was made flesh, and Christ took his flesh from her, and so she always points to the Lord Jesus Christ.

---

**(a reflection from the book, “The Secret of Mary”, **
by St Louis de Montfort)

 

[Max_Kolbe]

God chose to communicate with us through the Blessed Virgin Mary, and so it is proper that we may communicate to God through her. For the Word was made flesh, and Christ took his flesh from her, and so she always points to the Lord Jesus Christ.

**(a reflection from the book, “The Secret of Mary”, **
by St Louis de Montfort)

Yes, her power comes not from her own might but rests soley on her son Jesus. That is what makes the Mother of God so powerful is her completely pure and untainted humility which points everything back to her Son. I think this is one good way we can discern true apparitions of Mary from the false ones…agree?

 

[Mickey]

Max Kolbe:

Yes, her power comes not from her own might but rests soley on her son Jesus. That is what makes the Mother of God so powerful is her completely pure and untainted humility which points everything back to her Son. I think this is one good way we can discern true apparitions of Mary from the false ones…agree?

 

[bjcros]

Max Kolbe:

Oops…need to crack open that Bible more before hastily speaking:

Luke 1:48

Luke 1:45

Luke 1:42

“Behold, from now on *all *ages *shall *call be blessed”…

It’s a good time to start don’t ya think?

Alright. I meant the angel when he came to tell her about her child. but thank you for that clarification. I haven’t read Luke in a while so thank you I will read it now.

 

[bjcros]

Joseph Bilodeau:

Correct. Our praying for each other is not the same thing as when we pray to the Saints.

Our praying for each other is the same thing as when the Saints pray for us.

Our praying to the Saints is the same thing as when we ask other people to pray for us.

For the same reasons that you might ask me to pray for you, or that I might ask you to pray for me. Asking another to pray for you in no way prevents you from “going to the source” yourself.

I don’t know what it is but I just don’t like this issue. I don’t look at it the same way as you do. I don’t see it as the same thing as asking someone here on earth to pray for me. I don’t like it, but it is your problem what you do. I don’t think it is right and I have voiced that. So I will leave this issue alone.

 

[Mickey]

bjcros:

I don’t know what it is but I just don’t like this issue. I don’t look at it the same way as you do. I don’t see it as the same thing as asking someone here on earth to pray for me. I don’t like it, but it is your problem what you do. I don’t think it is right and I have voiced that. So I will leave this issue alone.

All you have to do is realize that the saints, when they fell asleep in the Lord, did not cease to exist. They are more alive than us! They are not cut off from us because they dwell in the Kingdom of Heaven. And so, they can still pray for us. No big deal really!

God Bless

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

ScottH:

So, its the Holy Spirit that coerced you folks into Marian idolotry?

You are half right. I think it was a spirit.
Just not a “Holy” one.

Scott, instead of accusing us of idioltry and being mislead by something of a sinister nature I would suggest you go to the main page of Catholic answers and do some research then you can go to sources outside of protestantism and Catholic resources in History and see what you find.After you have done that I would suggest you read up on private revelations supported by SCRIPTURE And after you honestly seek I am sure you would be able to humble yourself and apologize for your false statements:nope: I have seen you when you are kind and this is definately NOT one of these times.I will pray for you.God Bless