Mary, co-redeemer and co-mediator

[bjcros]

deb1:

Do you believe that Mary had free will? Could she have refused to allow God to implant Jesus in her womb? I ask these questions because Mary agreed to bring Jesus into the world. She could have said no. That is why she should have your respect-even if you don’t give her the status that Catholics do.

This kind of hypothetical question is worthless and pointless. She said yes. I don’t believe in free will to choose God. God chooses me so I choose God. The only free will and credit we can take in our life is when we sin, everything else I do because of God.

 

[bjcros]

DeFide:

Some here perhaps aren’t interested in hearing the Catholic defense or are closed to it, but for latecomers who missed it, I’ll re-post this by Fr. Serpa:

Dear Un,

The Church does not teach that we are redeemed by Mary. That would be heresy. It is important to realize that co-redemptrix does not mean co-equal. She co-operated in His mission of redeeming the world. He alone is the redeemer. She co-operated by the fact that the Father chose her to be the channel through which His Son entered the human race. She gave birth to Him and sustained Him through His childhood until adulthood. This is truly co-operation and this is all that is really meant by “co-redemptrix.” Because it is so easy to misunderstand this term, the Church has not made it an official title.
…]
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

If all that is meant by co-redeemptrix then that can be said of anyone who follows Christ, couldn’t it. because we “co-operate” with Christ and follow him.
Mary didn’t really play a part in our redemption. She should be honored. However, she didn’t play a part in our redemption. We are redeemed only by Jesus’ death on the cross. Mary wasn’t on the cross dieing for our sin which is what redeemed us.
She did have sin. If she was received into heaven before she died then it probably would be in the Bible, because Enoch and Elijah are in the Bible. Enoch is in it for that reason.

DeFide:

Jesus, being both God and man is uniquely a mediator between God and man. This does not mean that other types of mediation are impossible.

Similarly, God is the creator of all, yet he allows us to be creative in many subordinate ways to give glory to God

God didn’t create Jesus. Jesus is God. God can’t create himself. because God is eternal, and has no begining or end. and to be created is to have a begining. I don’t know if you were meaning that Christ was created or not, it seemed like you were.

 

[Axion]

bjcros:

If all that is meant by co-redeemptrix then that can be said of anyone who follows Christ, couldn’t it. because we “co-operate” with Christ and follow him.

Not to the extent of Mary.

Mary didn’t really play a part in our redemption. She should be honored. However, she didn’t play a part in our redemption. We are redeemed only by Jesus’ death on the cross. Mary wasn’t on the cross dieing for our sin which is what redeemed us.

Of course Mary played a real part in our redemption. As jesus is the New Adam, reversing the condemnation of the 1st Adam, so Mary is the New Eve, whose free obedience to God was a counterpoint to the disobedience of Eve. Just as Eve’s sin was subsidiary but relevant to the Sin of Adam, so the obedience of Mary is a lesser but necessary precursor to the obedient sacrifice of Jesus. Protestants are strangely eager to acknowledge Eve’s contribution to the Fall, but object to acknowledging Mary’s contribution to the Redemption.

She did have sin.

If Mary was a sinner, then she would have passed on her sinful flesh and nature to Christ.

If she was received into heaven before she died then it probably would be in the Bible, because Enoch and Elijah are in the Bible. Enoch is in it for that reason.

Why would it be in the Bible? Is Paul’s end in the Bible? Is Peter’s? Is the Assumption of Moses recorded in the Old Testament? Sola Scriptura isn’t even found in the Bible, so you are on a big loser with that argument.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

bjcros:

If all that is meant by co-redeemptrix then that can be said of anyone who follows Christ, couldn’t it. because we “co-operate” with Christ and follow him.

Correct. We are all called to be co-redeemers with Christ in this manner. We honor Mary with the title co-Redemptrix because of the exceedingly admirable extent to which she co-operated and continues to co-operate with Christ in this manner.

 

[didymus]

Joseph Bilodeau:

No.

Definition: “co-”, prefix: means “with”, does not imply equality. See here: answers.com/topic/co-prefix&method=6 , definition 2-b.

but also check definition 3:

co–
pref.

1. 
   *]Together; joint; jointly; mutually: coeducation.
   *]
   1. 
      *]Partner or associate in an activity: coauthor; cofounder.
      *]Subordinate or assistant: copilot.
      
      *]To the same extent or degree: coextensive.
      *]Complement of an angle: cotangent.
      
      Using the title Co-redemptrix, however carefully, raises Mariolatry to a newlevel and cannot help but cause misunderstanding both among Catholics and non-Catholics.

 

[bjcros]

Axion:

Not to the extent of Mary.

I played absolutely no part in my redeemption. It isn’t anything that I do that I am redeemed by. There is nothing that I can do to be redeemed. It is the grace of God that I believe in his son. I am redeemed by no one else but God. He is the only one who saves me. I can’t even save myself. I don’t think that we are co-redeemers. We weren’t even there when they crucified Christ.

Axion:

If Mary was a sinner, then she would have passed on her sinful flesh and nature to Christ.

No, Mary was a sinner. The reason that Mary did not pass this on to her son is the sin is passed down through the male. Jesus was not born from a male. There is no scriptural evidence for Mary being without sin. However, there is evidence that she was sinful. Romans 5:14. Romans 5:12. 1 Corinthians 15:22, death is caused by sin. Romans 3:9. Romans 6:7.

Axion:

Of course Mary played a real part in our redemption. As jesus is the New Adam, reversing the condemnation of the 1st Adam, so Mary is the New Eve, whose free obedience to God was a counterpoint to the disobedience of Eve. Just as Eve’s sin was subsidiary but relevant to the Sin of Adam, so the obedience of Mary is a lesser but necessary precursor to the obedient sacrifice of Jesus. Protestants are strangely eager to acknowledge Eve’s contribution to the Fall, but object to acknowledging Mary’s contribution to the Redemption.

Eve’s sin wasn’t subsidiary to Adam’s. She sinned first. Her sin in no way dejected from Adam’s free will. For someone who believes in free will, you don’t put in effect.(I don’t believe in complete free will but Eve, the serpant, nor God made Adam sin).
I don’t like the idea of Mary as a new Eve that is incest. Adam and Eve were joined as man and wife are.
Eve is mentioned twice in the New Testament. Neither of those times was a connection made between Eve and Mary. However, there is biblical evidence of a connection between Adam and Jesus.
Protestants reject Mary’s contribution in Redemption because she did not redeem us, or play a part other then giving birth to Jesus. Mary wasn’t necessary God could have chosen any woman.

Axion:

Why would it be in the Bible? Is Paul’s end in the Bible? Is Peter’s? Is the Assumption of Moses recorded in the Old Testament? Sola Scriptura isn’t even found in the Bible, so you are on a big loser with that argument

Firstly, we aren’t discussing Peter’s end or Paul’s end. We aren’t discussing Moses either. When people don’t die and are just received into heaven then it has been in the Bible. So it would seem that if Mary actually did ascend into heaven without dieing then that would be mentioned in the Bible. It isn’t in the Bible because she didn’t ascend into heaven without dieing, it also can be concluded that she probably died a normal death. She couldn’t have died without sin, therefore because she did die she had sin.
Secondly, please don’t make a personal attack. because it dejects from your arguement. It is very rude. Saying my arguement is a losing one and not providing evidence is even worse. It shows that you don’t know why you believe what you do. It also shows that you don’t have anything better to say than a personal attack. So lets refrain from doing that again.

 

[Mickey]

bjcros:

The reason that Mary did not pass this on to her son is the sin is passed down through the male. Jesus was not born from a male.

Where does this theology come from?

 

[bjcros]

Mickey:

Where does this theology come from?

“Just as in Adam all sinned.”(notice that the passage doesn’t say Just as in Eve all sinned). Original sin is passed down through the male. How do you think that it is passed?

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

didymus:

but also check definition 3:

co–
pref.

1. 
   *]Together; joint; jointly; mutually: coeducation.
   1. 
      *]Partner or associate in an activity: coauthor; cofounder.
      *]Subordinate or assistant: copilot.
      
      *]To the same extent or degree: coextensive.
      *]Complement of an angle: cotangent.
      
      Using the title Co-redemptrix, however carefully, raises Mariolatry to a newlevel and cannot help but cause misunderstanding both among Catholics and non-Catholics.

1. 1. 
      Please explain how this can possibly be used to misinterpret Marian devotion as mariolatry?
      
      Some people do attempt to use definition 2 in this manner, all we can do is explain what what the word means as we are doing in this forum. If they are honest, they will listen to us and understand what we mean by this term, even if they don’t subscribe to that belief themselves. But I don’t think we should be afraid to use a term properly just because someone else might obstinately insist that we really mean something different by that term.

 

[Mickey]

“Just as in Adam all sinned.”(notice that the passage doesn’t say Just as in Eve all sinned). Original sin is passed down through the male. How do you think that it is passed?

Adam’s sin injured the entire human race. It does not mean that original sin is passed down through the male gender.

 

[bjcros]

Mickey:

Adam’s sin injured the entire human race. It does not mean that original sin is passed down through the male gender.

How is it passed down then?

 

[Jaypeeto2]

QUESTION TO ALL, PARTICIPANTS AND MODERATORS:

WHY are MILITANT anti-Catholics allowed to post to these forums and harass the good Catholics here?

Jaypeeto

 

[bjcros]

Jaypeeto2:

QUESTION TO ALL, PARTICIPANTS AND MODERATORS:

WHY are MILITANT anti-Catholics allowed to post to these forums and harass the good Catholics here?

Jaypeeto

I don’t know, but are you considering me a MILITANT anti-Catholic?

 

[Mickey]

bjcros:

How is it passed down then?

The stain of original sin is inherited by all humans at the moment of conception and brings its effects of ignorance, concupiscience, death and suffering. Of course, the Virgin Mary being declared “full of grace”, was spared from this stain because she was to be the Mother of God.

 

[bjcros]

Mickey:

The stain of original sin is inherited by all humans at the moment of conception and brings its effects of ignorance, concupiscience, death and suffering. Of course, the Virgin Mary being declared “full of grace”, was spared from this stain because she was to be the Mother of God.

By definition then it must be inherited from an ancestor. I believe that the ancestor is male, and because Mary was born of a man it was passed to her.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

bjcros:

By definition then it must be inherited from an ancestor. I believe that the ancestor is male, and because Mary was born of a man it was passed to her.

Mary was spared from this stain by the will of God.

“For with God nothing will be impossible.” (Lk 1:37)

 

[Mickey]

Sarah Jane:

Mary was spared from this stain by the will of God.

“For with God nothing will be impossible.” (Lk 1:37)

 

[julebenn]

Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. Revelation 15:4 says, “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy”. Romans 3:10 says, “There is none righteous, no, not one”.

Also

Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 1 Peter 2:22 says, “Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth”.

n contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior. In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it. (Revelation 5:1-5)

There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Ephesians 3:12 says, “In whom Jesus} we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save us "to the uttermost," (utterly, completely) then He doesn't need Mary's help. If we can approach God with "boldness" and "confidence" because of our faith in Jesus, then we don't need Mary's help either.

 

[bjcros]

Sarah Jane:

Mary was spared from this stain by the will of God.

“For with God nothing will be impossible.” (Lk 1:37)

How do you know that it was God’s will? Have you read God’s mind? We don’t know it is God’s will. We don’t know that Mary was without sin. We do know that she probably died a normal death. because there isn’t proof of her ascension in the Bible(unlike Enoch or Elijah). She couldn’t have died without original sin.
You are correct with God nothing is impossible. However, you then must prove that God willed for Mary to be without sin. You can’t do that because it doesn’t say it in the Bible.
The idea of Mary being without sin is the creation of the Catholic Church. and it is not biblically supported.
I will grant that we can’t know that she was with sin. because it doesn’t say that she was.
If I am wrong I won’t be guilty of anything but rejecting something that the Bible doesn’t talk about.
If you are wrong you may be guilty of elevating Mary to a higher level then you should.
It is better to reject something that is not in the Bible then it is to accept it and elevate something where only God should be.

 

[julebenn]

In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”.

Mary knew that she needed a savior.