Mary, co-redeemer and co-mediator

[Mickey]

bjcros:

How do you know that it was God’s will? Have you read God’s mind? We don’t know it is God’s will. We don’t know that Mary was without sin. We do know that she probably died a normal death. because there isn’t proof of her ascension in the Bible(unlike Enoch or Elijah). She couldn’t have died without original sin.
You are correct with God nothing is impossible. However, you then must prove that God willed for Mary to be without sin. You can’t do that because it doesn’t say it in the Bible.
The idea of Mary being without sin is the creation of the Catholic Church. and it is not biblically supported.
I will grant that we can’t know that she was with sin. because it doesn’t say that she was.
If I am wrong I won’t be guilty of anything but rejecting something that the Bible doesn’t talk about.
If you are wrong you may be guilty of elevating Mary to a higher level then you should.
It is better to reject something that is not in the Bible then it is to accept it and elevate something where only God should be.

Oh, but it does say so in the Bible. When it is declared that Mary is “full of grace”. There’s no room for sin! Here is an explanation about the usage of “full of grace” that was posted some time ago by axion:

The word used of Mary in Luke 1 is Kecharitomene. It is a complex participle. The root of this word is Charis, meaning Grace. The prefix **Ke **means that the grace was already perfectly present before the angel appeared. The suffix **mene **means that Mary was the recipient of this grace.

In other words Kecharitomene shows that Mary was a **recipient **of a fullness of Grace. The grace was **given **to her. The perfect tense indicates that this filling with grace is a continuous event that was ongoing before the angel appeared.
The translations which state “highly favoured” instead of “full of grace”, are largely motivated by a doctrinal desire to downgrade Mary. The first version to use this translation was the King James Version, where the translators noted that “highly favoured” was used instead of “full of Grace” in order to show that Mary was not a source of grace. (Tyndale’s version on which the KJV was largely based, used full of Grace).

 

[Mickey]

julebenn:

In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”.

Mary knew that she needed a savior.

That’s been addressed many times on this forum. This article by Catholic answers is very informative.
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

 

[Marianne_M]

julebenn:

In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”.

Mary knew that she needed a savior.

Yes. Mary was redeemed by Christ, but by anticipation.

 

[Writer]

justaccord:

Good news for me. I dont think I’ve ever heard anti-catholic rhetoric in my church. But I was imprisoned by catholicism for almost 20 years and God saved me in spite of it.

Everyone, including you, has told me that I am ignorant of catholic doctrine and in effect am therefore ill-equipped to discuss the matter. (I regard that as condescension, although I take no personal offense at your post). The problem is, frankly, although you all want to lecture me on my ignorance, you all contradict each other and often the actual doctrine and dogma that I find in places like the catholic catechism.

For example, I got a reply recently (on the other thread) that said this:

"Nowhere in our beliefs is it said that Mary is our redeemer. Anyone who tells you that is either ignorant or outright lying to you… . .The mediation of the Blessed Virgin is nothing more than the same intercession of saints that all Christians share and are enjoined by the Bible itself to do. "

I replied by quoting John Paul II:

"Here’s what your late pope said:

John Paul II, Allocution at the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Guayaquil, given on Jan 31, 1985, reported in L’Osservatore Romano Supplement of Feb. 2, 1985 and in English L’Osservatore Romano, March 11, 1985, p. 7.

“Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son (cf. Gal 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen gentium #58) … as she was in a special way close to the Cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. In fact, Mary’s role as co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.”

I asked (granted, sarcastically)
Is the pope ignorant, or lying?

Here’s the point – who is in a better position to articulate catholic doctrine – you, or the pope?

I’m sure you agree it’s the pope, who says she (Mary) is a CO-REDEEMER with Christ.

And I go to Mexico, and can buy a cross with no Jesus but Mary on it. And I see a picture of a cross outside a catholic church with Jesus on one side and Mary on the other, back to back.

There is a problem with this picture. So no, I am not content to accept the patronizing statements of catholics whose staetments contradict the pope’s and the catholic catechism, where I have done my research.

I am sure that you all believe what you say, but that doesnt make it catholic doctrine.

So help me straighten this out, would you?

(I appreciate your tag line, by the way as the father of 5 and grandfather of 2)

sdg

I am a Catholic who does not accept the “Co-Redemptrix” title either. I just finished a thread on this general topic not too long ago, and I am afraid I don’t have time to pick the topic up again at this time. However, you should understand that not believing in the “Co-Redemptrix” title does not make a person a bad Catholic, or “caffeteria” Catholic. It’s a misleading and poorly-desgined term, submitted with the best of intentions by its supporters. I would invite you to read an essay of mine on this topic at the link below. The essay may be published in a different form in the future, but this is the first draft.

home.earthlink.net/~karlerickson/writer/id16.html

 

[julebenn]

Something I seen from above posting my answer

MOTHER OF GOD – Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. (“Catechism” 963, 971, 2677).

     The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary          was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God.          According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was          long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,

     "God, who at sundry times          and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,          hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed          heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds".

     Colossians 1:16-17 says,

     "For by him [Jesus] were          all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible          and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,          or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him:          And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist".

     John 8:58 says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto          you, before Abraham was, I am." Jesus existed before Abraham was          born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5,          Jesus says, "And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self          with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." So Jesus          existed even before the world began. Jesus came first -- not Mary.

 

[julebenn]

QUEEN OF HEAVEN – God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. (“Catechism” 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. (“Catechism” 971, 2675)

     Psalm 148:13 says, "Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his          name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven."          This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted.          (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of          the Psalms is slightly different.)

     When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because          she was His mother, Jesus corrected them.

     "And it came to pass,          as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her          voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the          paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they          that hear the word of God, and keep it." (Luke 11:27-28)

     In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite          detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by          24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the          center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne,          singing God's praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all.

 

[Mickey]

julebenn:

The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God.

Dear Jule,

What you have just described is the Nestorian heresy. This kind of thinking was condemned about 1600 years ago at the council of Ephesus by all of the early orthodox Christians. The Virgin Mary was declared “Theotokos” (God-bearer) and the people rejoiced in the streets.

 

[Mickey]

julebenn:

In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by 24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne, singing God’s praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all.

Revelation 12 speaks of the woman who “brought forth the man child who was to rule the nations (Christ),” saying, “And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ,” a direct allusion to Genesis 3:15, “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it “he” in most translations] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. …” Read that slowly, “I will put enmity between you and the woman!” What woman? Who is the woman whose “seed” (offspring) saves? Who is this woman who is mentioned, in the context of Eve’s sin, as being one whom God will have as the enemy of Satan? While “the woman” of Revelation 11-12 is also a type of the Church/Israel, who else could the woman who brought forth Christ possibly be?

 

[julebenn]

Mickey:

Dear Jule,

What you have just described is the Nestorian heresy. This kind of thinking was condemned about 1600 years ago at the council of Ephesus by all of the early orthodox Christians. The Virgin Mary was declared “Theotokos” (God-bearer) and the people rejoiced in the streets.

Then please explain where Mary was in the beginning? I know what the Bible says where Christ was.

For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist". John 8:58 says, “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus existed before Abraham was born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5, Jesus says, “And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” So Jesus existed even before the world began. Jesus came first – not Mary.

 

[julebenn]

julebenn:

Then please explain where Mary was in the beginning? I know what the Bible says where Christ was.

According to the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, Catholics are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without first checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the Catholic bishops interpret Scripture passages, and they are to accept what the bishops teach “with docility” as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or to follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it

 

[bjcros]

Mickey:

Oh, but it does say so in the Bible. When it is declared that Mary is “full of grace”. There’s no room for sin! Here is an explanation about the usage of “full of grace” that was posted some time ago by axion:

The word used of Mary in Luke 1 is Kecharitomene. It is a complex participle. The root of this word is Charis, meaning Grace. The prefix **Ke **means that the grace was already perfectly present before the angel appeared. The suffix **mene **means that Mary was the recipient of this grace.

In other words Kecharitomene shows that Mary was a **recipient **of a fullness of Grace. The grace was **given **to her. The perfect tense indicates that this filling with grace is a continuous event that was ongoing before the angel appeared.
The translations which state “highly favoured” instead of “full of grace”, are largely motivated by a doctrinal desire to downgrade Mary. The first version to use this translation was the King James Version, where the translators noted that “highly favoured” was used instead of “full of Grace” in order to show that Mary was not a source of grace. (Tyndale’s version on which the KJV was largely based, used full of Grace).

Firstly, I would argue that those aren’t downgrading Mary, but rather placing her on the correct level.
Secondly, I think that would be better to downgrade Mary then to elevate her to highly.
The issue whether or not Mary was sinfull or sinless can not be decided definitely. It isn’t in the Bible explicitely. This much is known, both sides have a number of verses that appear to support their position.
I would much rather leave the issue alone and say it doesn’t matter. Which it doesn’t. However, the implications of the statement Mary was without sin are very great in my mind. The implications of Mary being with sin are minimal in my mind.

 

[Mickey]

julebenn:

Then please explain where Mary was in the beginning? I know what the Bible says where Christ was.

For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist". John 8:58 says, “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus existed before Abraham was born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5, Jesus says, “And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” So Jesus existed even before the world began. Jesus came first – not Mary.

With all due respect, that is the nestorian heresy; very dangerous ideas indeed.

The Word has always existed. But when the Word was made flesh, He was born of a Virgin; fully divine and fully human–the hypostatic union. And hence, the Blessed Virgin Mary became “Theotokos”.

 

[Mickey]

bjcros:

Firstly, I would argue that those aren’t downgrading Mary, but rather placing her on the correct level.
Secondly, I think that would be better to downgrade Mary then to elevate her to highly.
The issue whether or not Mary was sinfull or sinless can not be decided definitely. It isn’t in the Bible explicitely. This much is known, both sides have a number of verses that appear to support their position.
I would much rather leave the issue alone and say it doesn’t matter. Which it doesn’t. However, the implications of the statement Mary was without sin are very great in my mind. The implications of Mary being with sin are minimal in my mind.

Okay, I’ll leave it alone.
Just know that I will defend the Blessed Mother to my deathbed. When I die, I would rather Jesus say to me, “You know Mickey, you gave my Mother a little too much honor and respect.” Instead of, " Hey Mickey, can you tell me why you did not give my Mother the due honor and respect she deserved"?

 

[Mickey]

julebenn:

julebenn:

According to the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, Catholics are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without first checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the Catholic bishops interpret Scripture passages, and they are to accept what the bishops teach “with docility” as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or to follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it

I can read this same wording directly from a Jack Chick tract. This is the most blatant stereotypical, misinformed, anti-Catholicism available today. I don’t bash your beliefs. And here you are on a Catholic forum insulting ours. If you care to not get suspended, I recommend that you show a little respect and charity. It’s the Christian thing to do.

 

[bjcros]

Mickey:

Okay, I’ll leave it alone.
Just know that I will defend the Blessed Mother to my deathbed. When I die, I would rather Jesus say to me, “You know Mickey, you gave my Mother a little too much honor and respect.” Instead of, " Hey Mickey, can you tell me why you did not give my Mother the due honor and respect she deserved"?

I understand where you are coming from. I understand that you give great honor to Mary and I would expect you to defend her. I respect the Catholics position. I don’t agree with it but I respect it. I thank-you for your understanding of my position.

 

[julebenn]

Mickey:

Okay, I’ll leave it alone.
Just know that I will defend the Blessed Mother to my deathbed. When I die, I would rather Jesus say to me, “You know Mickey, you gave my Mother a little too much honor and respect.” Instead of, " Hey Mickey, can you tell me why you did not give my Mother the due honor and respect she deserved"?

No Problem! I also believe she is blessed, but no way does she play a part in my salvation. She was blessed just as many other of the saints in the Bible. She had the awsome privilege and was blessed to be the mother of Jesus as the MAN. As far as sinless I would have to disagree.

 

[bjcros]

julebenn:

julebenn:

Then please explain where Mary was in the beginning? I know what the Bible says where Christ was.

According to the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, Catholics are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without first checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the Catholic bishops interpret Scripture passages, and they are to accept what the bishops teach “with docility” as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or to follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it

Jule,
I am a Protestant. Where ever you get that information I don’t think they were telling the truth. From what I see there is a very little bit of truth in there. I think you were hinting at the placement of church teachings in their beliefs. Now I am not Catholic so if I am wrong on this please correct me. They believe that the teachings of the church hold as much weight as scripture. This is not what you were saying and it is a false belief of anti-Catholics. I would know I believed the same thing. until I came in here in search of what the Catholics actually believe. What you said borders on a personal attack and you shouldn’t do that. It really doesn’t help your arguement. and it puts a bad light on other people other then yourself.

 

[Church_Militant]

Okay…maybe we need to point out a couple of things that most of you n-Cs don’t seem to understand.

The sinless life of Mary is the direct result of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and her ongoing faith and cooperation with the grace that He procured for her by it.

You insist that this elevates her onto a level equal with Christ, yet that is patently NOT what the Catholic Church teaches, nor is that what Catholics believe. I would suggest that you get that through your heads…regardless of what someone else has told you.

None of us can understand just why it is that you insist that no one could live a sinless Christian life since that is very clearly stated in the Bible as part of the reason that Christ came and it is indeed what we are all called to by Christ Himself. Why would that life of faith be so threatening to your beliefs?

Witness John 14:11-15 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. **Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. 13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. **15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

What is the promise of Christ that I have bolded…and what does it mean? Why could not the Blessed Virgin be the first believer and an example of this very thing, as well as humility since nothing else is recorded about it. Mary wrote no Gospel, but just where do ya think those guys got their info on Jesus’ early life?

Why does it matter? Because it gives all of us a great example of the kind of life that we all need to live in Christ.

Mediation is nothing more than intercession the same way that obedient Christians pray for one another. That is no problem the same way that your own prayers for others do not interfere or reduce the mediation of Christ for us all…especially since all our prayers go through Him to the Father anyway.

Co redeemer…should be no problem since Mary shared in much of the suffering of her Son, setting us all the best example of all of how a Christian should deal with. It is not that her suffering was redemptive for us all, but that she shared in the ministry of Jesus and like her son opened not her mouth.

Most of you n-Cs seem to think that Mary is some sort of threat to Jesus because we esteem her so highly. Yet you write her off as if she did nothing unique in history, yet she said yes to God and bore God in the flesh. I’d say that even the apostles have nothin’ on her.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Church_Militant]

julebenn:

julebenn:

Then please explain where Mary was in the beginning? I know what the Bible says where Christ was.

According to the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, Catholics are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without first checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the Catholic bishops interpret Scripture passages, and they are to accept what the bishops teach “with docility” as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or to follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it

This is total bunk! What anti-Catholic source did you get it from so I can write and enlighten them?

 

[julebenn]

bjcros:

julebenn:

Jule,
I am a Protestant. Where ever you get that information I don’t think they were telling the truth. From what I see there is a very little bit of truth in there. I think you were hinting at the placement of church teachings in their beliefs. Now I am not Catholic so if I am wrong on this please correct me. They believe that the teachings of the church hold as much weight as scripture. This is not what you were saying and it is a false belief of anti-Catholics. I would know I believed the same thing. until I came in here in search of what the Catholics actually believe. What you said borders on a personal attack and you shouldn’t do that. It really doesn’t help your arguement. and it puts a bad light on other people other then yourself.

No disrespect! I only know this holds true from experience in countries where Catholic holds power such as Brazil and Spain.
Here in America I believe this statmwnt is not so true. I apologize to anyone I may have offended.