Mary, co-redeemer and co-mediator

[Mickey]

julebenn:

She had the awsome privilege and was blessed to be the mother of Jesus as the MAN.

Again, this is the nestorian heresy–council of Ephesus 431ad.
Regardless of your other beliefs, to separate the divine Jesus from the human Jesus is a major heretical belief. And now I will shake the dust from my sandals and let other forum members discuss this with you if they wish. God Bless.

p.s–Thank you bjcros. You are a gentleman and a scholar. Your conversation is charitable and you put forth serious effort to understand all dialogue. God Bless you.

 

[Rogpodge]

About Mary being co-reemer and co-mediator,
Does it really matter what anybody thinks but God. Where can we get God’s thinking? The bible is God’s thinking and we add anything else then we begin to have man’s thinking.Since thinking Mary is co-rdeemer is not in the Bible that man’s thinking not God’s The scripture says in 1 Timothy 2:5 “there is one mediator between God and man which is Jesus Christ” that leaves Mary out.

Rogpodge

 

[Church_Militant]

julebenn:

bjcros:

No disrespect! I only know this holds true from experience in countries where Catholic holds power such as Brazil and Spain.
Here in America I believe this statmwnt is not so true. I apologize to anyone I may have offended.

I can assure you that that is not even true in the countries you name. It MIGHT be the perception in those countries where literacy is so low that the people cannot read the Bible for themselves which is the way the whole world worked up until the invention of the printing press.

Again…you are very much mistaken.
What is it…your first day here and you already know more about the Catholic Church than Catholics do?

If you wanna know what Catholics really believe stick around and read…both our posts and the tracts on the ma(name removed by moderator)age of this site. I’ll wager that you have not bothered to look at them at all since you discovered this site. As usual, you and many others come in here and go off half-cocked, thinking that you know what you are talking about and by your posts prove to have been fed only the lies and misperceptions of people who are not Catholic and do not really know what we believe or whjat the church really teaches.

You seem to like to quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Do you own a copy? Have you read it all the way through the way I have? Pulling quotes out of context is just as bad when you do it to the CCC as when you do it to Bible passages because both times you get the complete wrong idea.

Here’s the link for the ma(name removed by moderator)age library.
catholic.com/library.asp
I strongly suggest that you spend the rest of your visit here reading what we really teach and believe, then if you have a question of a hundred we can go from there.
Pax tecum,

 

[KathieAnn]

quote=Salmon

1 Cor. 3:9
Laboring together with God? Imagine that. Knock yourself out, it’s only scripture.

Hi!
My Bible actually words 1 Cor. 3:9 as “We are God’s co-workers, while you are his cultivation, his building.”

I had just been talking to my uncle who left the Catholic Church for a pentecostal type background. The co-redemptrix talk really bothered him. I tried to explain my understanding but he wouldn’t hear of it. Later, reading the Bible I noticed 1 Cor. 3:9 and circled it!! Co-workers with God! Hmmm… What are we co-workers in? Well, it is salvation of others, ultimately, that God uses us for. So I guess you could say we are ‘co-salvationists’, right? Is that more scandalous than saying Mary is co-redeemer? But there it is, right in the Word, for all sola-scripturists to see.
[/quote]

 

[Church_Militant]

Rogpodge:

About Mary being co-reemer and co-mediator,
Does it really matter what anybody thinks but God. Where can we get God’s thinking? The bible is God’s thinking and we add anything else then we begin to have man’s thinking.Since thinking Mary is co-rdeemer is not in the Bible that man’s thinking not God’s The scripture says in 1 Timothy 2:5 “there is one mediator between God and man which is Jesus Christ” that leaves Mary out.

Rogpodge

So all the writings of the early church don’t mean beans huh? :ehh:
Ignoring them to begin with is how the n-C churches wound up with thousands of differing doctrines and denoms.
Read this from Ignatius…one of St. John’s disciples and close friends.
catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchfathers/volume01/ignatius06.cfm

 

[Mickey]

Rogpodge:

About Mary being co-reemer and co-mediator,
Does it really matter what anybody thinks but God. Where can we get God’s thinking? The bible is God’s thinking and we add anything else then we begin to have man’s thinking.Since thinking Mary is co-rdeemer is not in the Bible that man’s thinking not God’s The scripture says in 1 Timothy 2:5 “there is one mediator between God and man which is Jesus Christ” that leaves Mary out.

Rogpodge

Jesus came into the world through The Blessed Mother. It’s okay to go through The Blessed Mother to Jesus. That’s not putting The Blessed Mother between Jesus and God. Don’t worry, Jesus will still be your mediator to the Father. Try it some time–she always points to her Son.

 

[bjcros]

Mickey:

p.s–Thank you bjcros. You are a gentleman and a scholar. Your conversation is charitable and you put forth serious effort to understand all dialogue. God Bless you.

Thank you for your kind words. Thank you for your help in understanding your faith.
I am a guest and minority in this forum. I am really trying to act as a guest. I initially came into this forum partly to understand Catholicism, but probably mostly to attack the Catholic faith. At times I got into heated debates and said something I shouldn’t have. I apologize again to anyone I have offended with past posts. However, during the time I have spent in this forum I have grown to realize that I had a great many of misconceptions about the Catholic faith. Catholics don’t believe anything that is explicitly against scripture. At least that I can see. I realize that they truely believe the Bible and follow it. most likely better then myself. Although I still have my issues with the Catholic teachings I respect them. I will continue to debate issues and defend my beliefs, and also raise issues. I thank all those who have helped me understand and also helped me to defend my own beliefs. Glory be to God.

 

[bjcros]

Church Militant:

So all the writings of the early church don’t mean beans huh? :ehh:
Ignoring them to begin with is how the n-C churches wound up with thousands of differing doctrines and denoms.
Read this from Ignatius…one of St. John’s disciples and close friends.
catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchfathers/volume01/ignatius06.cfm

Alright, I’m gonna put my two cents in. I don’t reject the early church writings. I do reject the thinking that it is on the same level as Scripture. If the Bible doesn’t speak on an issue then it is not important, and is not necessary for Salvation. It is up to the individual believer to decide what to believe on those issues. However, take caution when doing so. I’m not going to discuss the issue of Mary.

 

[Axion]

bjcros:

I played absolutely no part in my redeemption. It isn’t anything that I do that I am redeemed by. There is nothing that I can do to be redeemed. It is the grace of God that I believe in his son. I am redeemed by no one else but God. He is the only one who saves me. I can’t even save myself. I don’t think that we are co-redeemers. We weren’t even there when they crucified Christ.

What you are expressing is hyper-calvinist theory - which is rejected by the vast majority of Christians, who have always taught that we can co-operate freely with God’s grace.

No, Mary was a sinner. The reason that Mary did not pass this on to her son is the sin is passed down through the male.

This is another odd doctrine which is often quoted by Calvinists but with no biblical or historical proof. Both sexes have original sin, and if you inherit your flesh and nature from someone with sin, then you inherit that same affinity for sin.

Jesus was not born from a male. There is no scriptural evidence for Mary being without sin. However, there is evidence that she was sinful. Romans 5:14. Romans 5:12. 1 Corinthians 15:22, death is caused by sin. Romans 3:9. Romans 6:7.

None of your quotations refers to Mary. They are just general repetitions of statements inferring that all will die or all have sinned. The “all” argument has been repeated ad-nauseam. “All” as used in the New testament is most often rhetorical, not absolute.

Eve’s sin wasn’t subsidiary to Adam’s. She sinned first. Her sin in no way dejected from Adam’s free will. For someone who believes in free will, you don’t put in effect.(I don’t believe in complete free will but Eve, the serpant, nor God made Adam sin).
I don’t like the idea of Mary as a new Eve that is incest. Adam and Eve were joined as man and wife are.

Adam and Eve had a free choice, to obey or disobey, to have faith or not. Mary and Jesus had the same free choice. For Mary: To accept God’s will in bearing Jesus, and for Jesus, to accept God’s plan that he die for our sins. The new Adam and Eve are **spiritual ** not physical parallels. This was taught by the earliest Church Fathers.

So it is in making this vital free choice for God that Mary plays her part in salvation history.

Eve is mentioned twice in the New Testament. Neither of those times was a connection made between Eve and Mary. However, there is biblical evidence of a connection between Adam and Jesus.

Look at the protogospel of Genesis 3.15 where God speaks to Satan in the presence of the fallen Adam and Eve. God says that Satan shall be an eternal enemy of a Woman and her seed - who will crush his head. That “seed” is generally acknowledged to be Jesus. The Woman is Mary.

Protestants reject Mary’s contribution in Redemption because she did not redeem us, or play a part other then giving birth to Jesus. Mary wasn’t necessary God could have chosen any woman.

God chose One woman. Once He has made a choice He doesn’t go off and choose another. Did He do that with Eve and Adam - say, “Okay, you rejected me, I’ll find someone else?” No. The choice stands.

As for Mary “just” giving birth to Jesus. Eve “just” ate an apple. It is the act of faith that counts.

Firstly, we aren’t discussing Peter’s end or Paul’s end. We aren’t discussing Moses either. When people don’t die and are just received into heaven then it has been in the Bible. So it would seem that if Mary actually did ascend into heaven without dieing then that would be mentioned in the Bible. It isn’t in the Bible because she didn’t ascend into heaven without dieing, it also can be concluded that she probably died a normal death. She couldn’t have died without sin, therefore because she did die she had sin.

Phew! So many un backed-up assertions in one paragraph! Mary “didn’t” ascend to heaven, therefore, she “had” to have died, therefore she “had” to have sinned! Sorry. That is a house of cards.

There is no reason mary’s Assumption “had” to be in the NT any more than Peter’s martyrdom, or Moses Assumption in the Old Testament. Arguing from silence is very unwise. The bible writers stated their intention - to cover Jesus’s ministry, and the first days of the early church. Events outside that time-frame, however important, just weren’t in the gospel accounts. Although the Assumption itself is alluded to in Revelation 12.

 

[Writer]

Axion:

What you are expressing is hyper-calvinist theory - which is rejected by the vast majority of Christians, who have always taught that we can co-operate freely with God’s grace.

This is another odd doctrine which is often quoted by Calvinists but with no biblical or historical proof. Both sexes have original sin, and if you inherit your flesh and nature from someone with sin, then you inherit that same affinity for sin.

None of your quotations refers to Mary. They are just general repetitions of statements inferring that all will die or all have sinned. The “all” argument has been repeated ad-nauseam. “All” as used in the New testament is most often rhetorical, not absolute.

Adam and Eve had a free choice, to obey or disobey, to have faith or not. Mary and Jesus had the same free choice. For Mary: To accept God’s will in bearing Jesus, and for Jesus, to accept God’s plan that he die for our sins. The new Adam and Eve are **spiritual **not physical parallels. This was taught by the earliest Church Fathers.

So it is in making this vital free choice for God that Mary plays her part in salvation history.

Look at the protogospel of Genesis 3.15 where God speaks to Satan in the presence of the fallen Adam and Eve. God says that Satan shall be an eternal enemy of a Woman and her seed - who will crush his head. That “seed” is generally acknowledged to be Jesus. The Woman is Mary.

God chose One woman. Once He has made a choice He doesn’t go off and choose another. Did He do that with Eve and Adam - say, “Okay, you rejected me, I’ll find someone else?” No. The choice stands.

As for Mary “just” giving birth to Jesus. Eve “just” ate an apple. It is the act of faith that counts.

Phew! So many un backed-up assertions in one paragraph! Mary “didn’t” ascend to heaven, therefore, she “had” to have died, therefore she “had” to have sinned! Sorry. That is a house of cards.

There is no reason mary’s Assumption “had” to be in the NT any more than Peter’s martyrdom, or Moses Assumption in the Old Testament. Arguing from silence is very unwise. The bible writers stated their intention - to cover Jesus’s ministry, and the first days of the early church. Events outside that time-frame, however important, just weren’t in the gospel accounts. Although the Assumption itself is alluded to in Revelation 12.

Quick correction on an otherwise great post… Moses was never assumed into heaven. Read Deuteronomy Chapter 34 for the account of his death on Mt. Nebo overlooking the plains of Moab.

 

[tuopaolo]

julebenn:

This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted.

Hmm, I seem to remember Jesus saying that God will exalt those who humble themselves. Methinks I’ll go with Jesus rather than with you

 

[Rogpodge]

deb1:

Think about it. What if Mary had refused to take on the task of being Christ’s mother? I don’t think that most people realize that she could have turned down God. She is a creature of free will after all. It was partially her choice that brought about the incarnation. So in that regard she deserves the title of coredeemer.

.[You Talk like God could not have produced a human Christ without Mary. God produced a human Adam without a mother and a human eve without a mother and besides even though Mary said yes and it was her decision that decision was made thousands of years before Mary was born. Even though Mary made the decision God knew what that would be long before Mary was born, God knows every decision I and anyone else makes before we make it in our lives even though we are still free moral agents.

Rogpodge/QUOTE]

 

[Hebrews_10]

You guys are missing something pretty simple in all of this… Christ Himself said, “I am the Way the Truth and the Life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by Me.” Not through patron saints of this or that not through the pope, but by Christ and Christ alone.

At pope John Paul’s funeral, his soul was commended to mary to be led to Christ… that goes against Christ’s very own words. “No one comes to the Father but by Me.”

So, we can continue to follow doctrins of men, or we can “Come boldly to the throne of grace” as Paul states because of the work that Christ and Christ alone did. Was Mary used, chosen, etc… sure she was you can read about it in God’s word. Was she any more holy than Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, or Aaron? Nope. “is there none righteous, no not one”, and again, “For Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust (this includes mary and myself) that we might be brought back to the Father”

Stop the unnecessary idolization of all that is not important and start worshipping the One who is, who was and forever shall be. The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Simply stated: 1 cross, 3 nails = 4 given.
1 Holy Mother, 1 Holy Father (pope), 3000 Holy Saints = a whole lot of worthless praying to a whole lot of people who like you and I are just sinners in constant need of Christ.

Thanks for your time

PS: if Peter was the first pope, then why in Acts when the people fell at his feet, why did he tell them to get up because he was only a man? Why did he not offer to bless them if they bowed and kissed his ring? - Just asking

 

[Writer]

Rogpodge:

deb1:

Think about it. What if Mary had refused to take on the task of being Christ’s mother? I don’t think that most people realize that she could have turned down God. She is a creature of free will after all. It was partially her choice that brought about the incarnation. So in that regard she deserves the title of coredeemer.

.[You Talk like God could not have produced a human Christ without Mary. God produced a human Adam without a mother and a human eve without a mother and besides even though Mary said yes and it was her decision that decision was made thousands of years before Mary was born. Even though Mary made the decision God knew what that would be long before Mary was born, God knows every decision I and anyone else makes before we make it in our lives even though we are still free moral agents.

Rogpodge/QUOTE]

Yikes! There are so many reasoning errors up there, I don’t know where to start first. The point is that God did select Mary, and Mary was given a chance to object twice: first at the Annunciation and second at the wedding feast, where Jesus performed His first miracle. If you discount free will, God is reduced to playing a game of chess with the devil and we’re all simply pawns awaiting our fate. For my money, that sounds more like a bad science fiction plot than theology.

Unlike Eve, Mary chose correctly. Of course, it still doesn’t make her the “Co-Redemptrix”, but it does demonstrate a cooperation with God to bring Christ into the world.

 

[tuopaolo]

Hebrews 10:

You guys are missing something pretty simple in all of this… Christ Himself said, “I am the Way the Truth and the Life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by Me.” Not through patron saints of this or that not through the pope, but by Christ and Christ alone.

At pope John Paul’s funeral, his soul was commended to mary to be led to Christ… that goes against Christ’s very own words. “No one comes to the Father but by Me.”

Your logic could use a lot of work there.

Let’s say you are trying to fly to a city called Apple and you live in a city called Orange and there’s no direct flight from Orange to Apple. You have to make two connecting flights. All flights to Apple have to first connect through Pear and all flights to Pear have to connect through Mango. Well then you could say, “No one flies to Apple but through Pear” even though to fly to Apple you also need to connect through Mango. The fact that you have to connect through Mango doesn’t take away from the fact that you also need to connect through Pear.

 

[tuopaolo]

Hebrews 10:

Simply stated: 1 cross, 3 nails = 4 given.
1 Holy Mother,[snip]3000 Holy Saints = a whole lot of worthless praying to a whole lot of people who like you and I are just sinners in constant need of Christ.

You seem to be saying that Mary and the saints in Heaven are sinners. Prescinding from the fact that Mary was sinless from conception till this day, there is no sin in heaven.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hebrews 10:

1.

You guys are missing something pretty simple in all of this… Christ Himself said, “I am the Way the Truth and the Life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by Me.” Not through patron saints of this or that not through the pope, but by Christ and Christ alone.

**2.**At pope John Paul’s funeral, his soul was commended to mary to be led to Christ… that goes against Christ’s very own words. “No one comes to the Father but by Me.”

**3.**So, we can continue to follow doctrins of men, or we can “Come boldly to the throne of grace” as Paul states because of the work that Christ and Christ alone did. Was Mary used, chosen, etc… sure she was you can read about it in God’s word. Was she any more holy than Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, or Aaron? Nope. “is there none righteous, no not one”, and again, “For Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust (this includes mary and myself) that we might be brought back to the Father”

**4.**Stop the unnecessary idolization of all that is not important and start worshipping the One who is, who was and forever shall be. The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

**5.**Simply stated: 1 cross, 3 nails = 4 given.
1 Holy Mother, 1 Holy Father (pope), 3000 Holy Saints = a whole lot of worthless praying to a whole lot of people who like you and I are just sinners in constant need of Christ.

**6.**PS: if Peter was the first pope, then why in Acts when the people fell at his feet, why did he tell them to get up because he was only a man? Why did he not offer to bless them if they bowed and kissed his ring? - Just asking

Question? Did you just get up in the morning and decide to offend as many Catholics as possible and disrespect their faith or did the devil himself tempt you?

With as much charity as I can muster, I’m gonna take this post of yours apart and then ask you to reconsider why you are here on a Catholic forum like this.

1. Catholics have not missed anything “pretty simple here” since we all know full well that our salvation is through the shed blood of Christ on the cross and His resurrection. What you have missed is the great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12:1

2. So you have no interest or plans to encounter anyone that you loved in heaven huh? How very sad for you. If you knew what you were talking about and understood what Catholics mean by this you’d know that we believe that that great cloud of witnesses will be there to great us when we go home. Pope John Paul II’s love for & commitment to Our Lord is in no question. What you fail to get is that we expect a great cloud of witnesses and especially the Blessed Virgin, to escort us into Christ’s presence since they have been cheering us on out life-long race anyway. That’s anything but unBiblical.

**3.**You really aren’t gonna like this one: Doctrines of men? OKay…Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Both glaring doctrines of men that have only been around since 1517 and the foundational errors of every non-Catholic church since then. Yet you and millions of others blindly follow them because you are afraid of the mysteries of Christianity. Not everything about Christ is in that Bible (especially since your teachers have chosen to edit out 7 books and parts of 2 others!). St. John plainly tells you so at the end of his Gospel. You ignore the writings of the very disciples of the apostles and treat the Bible that you have today as if it spiraled down out of the sky to land at the apostle’s feet as Jesus ascended in to heaven. Worse still, a lot of you seem to think it was the KJV.
So don’t even start a discussion of doctrines of men when n-C Christianity can’t even tell me if Baptism is necessary for salvation…just for a start.

4. This is just straight up offensive. You tell me that we are idolizing something, when you idolize that edited and abridged book that you call the Bible. Things not important? Who are you to attempt to tell others what is and is not important in Christianity? How would you know anyway…are you infallible in your understanding of matters of faith and morals? I think not. I’ve already shown that you follow the new winds of doctrines of men.

5. You miss the fact that all those worthless sinners are repentant sinners who have already entered the kingdon of heaven and are now part of that great cloud of witnesses. (BTW it’s over 7,000 saints. Get it right). And so I supppose that you never ask for intercessory prayer from fellow believers. In spite of the clear NT instruction to do so.

6. If Peter was the first Pope (as he was) then why did he excommunicate Ananaias and Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit and they fell down dead at his feet? This topic is dealt with in other threads. Search for it.

I urge you to rethink why you are here…
Pax tecum,

 

[Mickey]

Hebrews 10:

Stop the unnecessary idolization of all that is not important and start worshipping the One who is, who was and forever shall be. The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

You know very well that Catholics don’t idolize anyone but The Holy Trinity. When you understand what the Catholic Church **really **teaches, then perhaps we could have a constructive dialogue. Otherwise, I fear that it may be throwing pearls to the swine.

TO BE DEEP IN HISTORY, IS TO CEASE TO BE PROTESTANT.

 

[Axion]

Writer:

Quick correction on an otherwise great post… Moses was never assumed into heaven. Read Deuteronomy Chapter 34 for the account of his death on Mt. Nebo overlooking the plains of Moab.

Moses body was traditionally taken into heaven. This is alluded to in Jude 9, which talks of the angel disputing with the Devil for Moses body. This story, quoted as factual, comes from the non-scriptural writing, the Assumption of Moses. Also Moses returns from heaven with the assumed Elijah at the Transfiguration.

. If you discount free will, God is reduced to playing a game of chess with the devil and we’re all simply pawns awaiting our fate. For my money, that sounds more like a bad science fiction plot than theology.

 

[Writer]

Axion:

Moses body was traditionally taken into heaven. This is alluded to in Jude 9, which talks of the angel disputing with the Devil for Moses body. This story, quoted as factual, comes from the non-scriptural writing, the Assumption of Moses. Also Moses returns from heaven with the assumed Elijah at the Transfiguration.

I had forgotten that… Thank you!