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jpink1019
Guest
I want a simple answer.
Does the Catholic Church teach that Mary is a co-Redeemer with christ?
Does the Catholic Church teach that Mary is a co-Redeemer with christ?
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FrancisBenedict
Guest
ur_Lady.php
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Ad_Orientem
Guest
That article may be okay, but I point out for our viewers’ information that Bro. Peter Diamond et al. in Fillmore NY are not in communion with Rome, and their website contains polemics against the Church.
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Ad_Orientem
Guest
Yes.
Not in an equal role (she is a mere creature), but by cooperation.
In a lesser way you and I are co-redeemers every time we pray for people or share the gospel message. God could of course save people without our help, but he chooses to use human instruments.
Mary’s role goes deeper than that, because of her unique relationship to God. But again, it is a cooperation in Christ’s redemption, not a parallel redemption.
Vatican II put it this way:
In conceiving Christ, in giving birth to Him, in feeding Him, in presenting Him to the Father in the Temple, in suffering with Him, as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. (Lumen Gentium #61)
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pablope
Guest
How do you define or understand the phase…“co-redeemer with Christ”?
How do you define or understand…"co??
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snarflemike
Guest
That is the big question. What is the concept that the OP understands by the phrase? Clarify that and we can offer a solid answer.
po18guy
Well-known member
If you seek the truth - and it is clear that you do - then you should avail yourself of a copy of Catholicism for Dummies. In it, you can find the truth, in easily read and understood terms, about what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. I do not expect that you will ever be a Catholic, but our responsibility to the truth demands that you also know the truth before forming an opinion.
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Tarpeian_Rock
Guest
As I recall, Pope Benedict was not in favor of a formal proclamation of that title. We can say what we want in terms of “co” meaning “with” or “co-operation,” but the term as used today implies an equality (as in “co-president” or “co-chairman”) that is theologically inaccurate, and would prove to be a source of confusion. Such confusion and misunderstanding does no honor to Our Lady.
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jpjd
Guest
Ditto what Tarpeian Rock said.
The concept behind “co-redeemer” is fine; the term makes me wary.
In the English language anyway, the prefix “co-” indicates an equality between members:
co-workers, co-chairs.
Dictionary.com defines “co-” this way:
prefix 1. together; joint or jointly; mutual or mutually: *coproduction * 2. indicating partnership or equality: *cofounder *; *copilot * 3. to the same or a similar degree: coextend
This is how 99% of people understand the prefix “co-”.
And yet with the word co-redeemer, Catholics have to explain that in the Catholic world of words, co-redeemer means that Mary is NOT equal to Jesus our Redeemer. It’s ridiculous. Why are we using this term?
The concept behind “co-redeemer” is fine; the term makes me wary.
In the English language anyway, the prefix “co-” indicates an equality between members:
co-workers, co-chairs.
Dictionary.com defines “co-” this way:
prefix 1. together; joint or jointly; mutual or mutually: *coproduction * 2. indicating partnership or equality: *cofounder *; *copilot * 3. to the same or a similar degree: coextend
This is how 99% of people understand the prefix “co-”.
And yet with the word co-redeemer, Catholics have to explain that in the Catholic world of words, co-redeemer means that Mary is NOT equal to Jesus our Redeemer. It’s ridiculous. Why are we using this term?
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CaptFun
Guest
Yes.
But “CO-” is not "equal to" Christ (as if Mary were divine or died on a cross for us).
"CO-" is meant in the sense of:
ALSO a CRITICAL PERSON in Christ’s (actual) plan and action of Salvation.
More like: “Starring Jesus Christ”. Co-starring “Mary of Nazareth”.
Or: Pilot: Jesus Christ (flies the plane). Co-pilot: Mary (does not fly the plane but assists in other ways).
Rather than Co-Champions: Each of two people are equally Champions. (For example - The Church never calls JESUS a Co-Redeemer - He is THE Redeemer).
WHY Jesus decided to have Mary BE a part of that plan is another question. The ACTUAL plan of Salvation involved a new covenant similar to the OT covenant with “Father” Abraham. < Who in a like manner is not equalto “God the Father” of course.
But - scripture calls Abraham “Father” and Mary “Mother”. High and honorary titles - to be CONSIDERED by believers, not dismissed or crabbed against. Not that you are doing such, but some folks do.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Redemptrix <wikipedia (some background)
voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php (more detailed theological look at the doctrine and objections to it).
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Love4All
Guest
First: the term in question is not “Co-redeemer,” it is “Co-redemptrix.” An academic point to be sure, but let us speak accurately about what is in question.
Secondly: Mary is Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix of Grace. This is the constant teaching of the Saints.
Third: my second point is currently a point of contention, and as such, can only be definitively settled by the Pope.
In conclusion: Ask the Pope!
Secondly: Mary is Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix of Grace. This is the constant teaching of the Saints.
Third: my second point is currently a point of contention, and as such, can only be definitively settled by the Pope.
In conclusion: Ask the Pope!
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aemcpa
Guest
Wouldn’t you rather have the right answer? The truths of the Catholic Faith can’t all be expressed on Twitter.
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TimothyH
Guest
No Catholic should ever be afraid of Mary’s role as co-redeemer. No Catholic should every shy away from such a statement. Such is squarely rooted in scripture.
Read about the mother of the seven sons in 2 Maccabees 7, how she encouraged her sons to remain faithful in the face of death, and you will see what Mary was like and why she participated in Christ’s mission.
*She encouraged each of them in the language of their fathers. Filled with a noble spirit, she fired her woman’s reasoning with a man’s courage, and said to them, “I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws.” (2 Maccabees 7:21-23)
"My son, have pity on me. I carried you nine months in my womb, and nursed you for three years, and have reared you and brought you up to this point in your life, and have taken care of you. I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being. Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God’s mercy I may get you back again with your brothers." (2 Maccabees 7:27-29)*
People think that Mary was at the foot of the Cross, sheepishly weeping, weak and distraught. Nothing however, could be further from the truth. Like the mother of the seven sons, she encouraged her son to remain faithful to his mission.
Mary is the “Perfect helpmate” to Christ spoken about in Genesis 2:18. To the extent that Mary is that perfect helpmate, she is also the co-redeemer.
Mary is like Judith, who remained faithful in the face of extreme danger, and cut of the head of the enemy of Israel and saved the entire nation.
No Catholic should ever be ashamed or afraid of calling Mary the co-redeemer.
-Tim-
Read about the mother of the seven sons in 2 Maccabees 7, how she encouraged her sons to remain faithful in the face of death, and you will see what Mary was like and why she participated in Christ’s mission.
*She encouraged each of them in the language of their fathers. Filled with a noble spirit, she fired her woman’s reasoning with a man’s courage, and said to them, “I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws.” (2 Maccabees 7:21-23)
"My son, have pity on me. I carried you nine months in my womb, and nursed you for three years, and have reared you and brought you up to this point in your life, and have taken care of you. I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being. Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God’s mercy I may get you back again with your brothers." (2 Maccabees 7:27-29)*
People think that Mary was at the foot of the Cross, sheepishly weeping, weak and distraught. Nothing however, could be further from the truth. Like the mother of the seven sons, she encouraged her son to remain faithful to his mission.
Mary is the “Perfect helpmate” to Christ spoken about in Genesis 2:18. To the extent that Mary is that perfect helpmate, she is also the co-redeemer.
Mary is like Judith, who remained faithful in the face of extreme danger, and cut of the head of the enemy of Israel and saved the entire nation.
No Catholic should ever be ashamed or afraid of calling Mary the co-redeemer.
-Tim-
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aemcpa
Guest
Mary was the only person whose direct cooperation was necessary for the work of salvation to be accomplished by Christ. Without Mary’s consent, God the Son could not have been incarnate. That is the primary reason that she merits the title of Co-Redemptrix.
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bzkoss236
Guest
As you indicated with your posting of the dictionary.com reference, there are various uses of co-, not all of them imply equality. The first definition fits more with how we use it here. ‘Co-’ as in jointly. To show this, you can have a ‘co-worker’, someone you work with, but that does not necessarily mean equality. Yes, some of your ‘co-workers’ are on an equal level, but not all. However, they all help together in running the company. Even a ‘co-pilot’ is not equal to a pilot. The ‘co-pilot’ is there to assist, but the pilot has the total authority on the plane. Similarly, Mary, just as the other saints, you, and I, all help in each other’s salvation. Ultimately, Jesus is our president, the man who makes the final decisions and has all the power.
I can refer to my brother as a my ‘co-redeemer’ for bringing me back to Christ after my time away. This does not mean that he plays an equal role to Christ.
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CaptFun
Guest
Well - JESUS is never called “a co-Redeemer”. So if you ask in THAT sense, then no.
For some reason Jesus willed that certain people share in His work of salvation.
Only Mary is called a co-redemptrix.
BUT even in the sense of “deputies” the saints are not called co-redeemers. Though in a sense they could be, it seems.
Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Doesn’t say if that judging will be as much as if those judged tribes (and the individuals in them?) will be allowed into heaven or not (salvation) – but Christ shares his powers AGAIN it seems.
As the Biblical Prophet Simeon prophesies about Jesus and salvation - he mentions and links Mary into the same prophecy
Now there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon. This man was righteous and devout, awaiting the consolation of Israel, 10 and the holy Spirit was upon him.
26 It had been revealed to him by the holy Spirit that he should not see death before he had seen the Messiah of the Lord.
27 He came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to perform the custom of the law in regard to him,
28 he took him into his arms and blessed God, saying:
29 "Now, Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word,
30 for my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you prepared in sight of all the peoples,
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and glory for your people Israel."
33 The child’s father and mother were amazed at what was said about him;
34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted
35 *(and you yourself a sword will pierce) *11 so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." *
- NAB. KJV renders vs. 35 as:
The Holy Spirit inspired prophet links Mary with the prophecy about her son (though not equating her being co-pierced as being the same thing or equal to Christ’s. Interestingly he mentions a sword piercing Mary “also” in the KJV when it was not mentioned about Jesus previously. (An interesting side note for those who must have scripture for every aspect of what they believe).
In another sense too, where the Bible calls Eve " … the mother of all living".
Mary is called " … blessed among women" (even more so than Eve).
As Eve’s “no” to God (disobedience) cost mankind paradise.
Mary’s “yes” “Be it done unto me according to your word” – began the reparation that was the coming of the “New Adam” (Jesus).
Side note: Mary’s answer to God the Father at the BEGINNING of the Messiah’s coming to earth to save mankind
Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord.** May it be done to me according to your word.**” Then the angel departed from her.
– is very similar to her Son’s " …
He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, "My Father, 25 if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will."
… on the night he began His final journey to the cross and accomplishing His mission …
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.
22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,
Co-redemptrix is also less of a title the Church has conferred on Mary. It is rather more of the recognition of something Jesus did. He chose to fill ONE non-divine person with grace and be born of her - as part of His plan.
The **honor **the Church does “give” HER is not equal to the worship it gives to God. And HIGH as the honor is that it gives Mary – it is nothing in comparison to the honor given to her by the Lord Himself. The Church is happy to follow Jesus in honoring her - as it should follow Him in all things.
The Church is not without the power of the keys to determine things. But it did not invent powers for Mary nor a key role in salvation history she did not already have.
Like others that are branches of “the vine” (Jesus) Mary has powers still.
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever** believes in me** will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.
Certainly one of the “whoever” is Mary herself - OF whom the Holy Spirit Filled Elizabeth attests:
Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
In her humble holiness Mary calls herself a lowly handmaiden of the Lord. He has lifted her up. And the handmaiden gladly shares in His work.
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FrancisBenedict
Guest
Mary teaches us without words, by her example
PAX+
PAX+
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CaptFun
Guest
:blushing: I admire your humble, concise brevity. And message.
Imitating it is a virtue I’ve not yet attained to.
She does teach us so. Though her** few** words are ***profound! ***
Almost perfectly sums up:
- How a Christian should deport oneself to God and …
- What a Christian should counsel others to do.
St. Joseph speaks not at ALL in scripture but as you say about Mary, he teaches us without words, by his example.
- IS a “just man”
- Acts in Charity (attempts to hide Mary’s seeming indiscretion quietly)
- Acts in obedience to God. Takes Mary as his wife.
- Obeys the law (Journeys to Bethlehem to keep it).
- Does not abandon his family when it was hard. (Might have had a room at the inn if he didn’t have the “detriments”
of a pregnant, about to bear, wife - and an unwanted unborn child. - Takes leadership in fleeing to Egypt. And the return journey. When instructed to.
- Searches earnestly when he is separated from Jesus.
It is interesting that in the Holy Family the order of dignity is reversed - yet desired by God.
The REDEEMER is God Himself made flesh. He empties Himself to begin His work.
The Co-Redemptrix is a uniquely graced woman in whose body GOD chooses to dwell!
The Just Man while not related by blood to his son, nor in body with his wife is nonetheless reckoned as the earthly ***HEAD of the Holy Family.
He came to mind immediately upon seeing FracisBenedict’s view of Mary.
J
jpink1019
Guest
My own understanding is this.
Christ is our Redeemer. There has been no other figure, entity or persons who are responsible for the salvation that we find on the cross through christ jesus.
co-redeemer = necessity to involve another person in order that we might be saved.
Through Mary we reach Jesus to achieve our salvation.
This is what i am getting at.
J
jpink1019
Guest
… so in summary Mary is a co-redemptrix because…?Well - JESUS is never called “a co-Redeemer”. So if you ask in THAT sense, then no.
For some reason Jesus willed that certain people share in His work of salvation.
Only Mary is called a co-redemptrix.
BUT even in the sense of “deputies” the saints are not called co-redeemers. Though in a sense they could be, it seems.
Doesn’t say if that judging will be as much as if those judged tribes (and the individuals in them?) will be allowed into heaven or not (salvation) – but Christ shares his powers AGAIN it seems.
As the Biblical Prophet Simeon prophesies about Jesus and salvation - he mentions and links Mary into the same prophecy
The Holy Spirit inspired prophet links Mary with the prophecy about her son (though not equating her being co-pierced as being the same thing or equal to Christ’s. Interestingly he mentions a sword piercing Mary “also” in the KJV when it was not mentioned about Jesus previously. (An interesting side note for those who must have scripture for every aspect of what they believe).
In another sense too, where the Bible calls Eve " … the mother of all living".
Mary is called " … blessed among women" (even more so than Eve).
As Eve’s “no” to God (disobedience) cost mankind paradise.
Mary’s “yes” “Be it done unto me according to your word” – began the reparation that was the coming of the “New Adam” (Jesus).
Side note: Mary’s answer to God the Father at the BEGINNING of the Messiah’s coming to earth to save mankind
– is very similar to her Son’s " …
… on the night he began His final journey to the cross and accomplishing His mission …
Co-redemptrix is also less of a title the Church has conferred on Mary. It is rather more of the recognition of something Jesus did. He chose to fill ONE non-divine person with grace and be born of her - as part of His plan.
The **honor **the Church does “give” HER is not equal to the worship it gives to God. And HIGH as the honor is that it gives Mary – it is nothing in comparison to the honor given to her by the Lord Himself. The Church is happy to follow Jesus in honoring her - as it should follow Him in all things.
The Church is not without the power of the keys to determine things. But it did not invent powers for Mary nor a key role in salvation history she did not already have.
Like others that are branches of “the vine” (Jesus) Mary has powers still.
Certainly one of the “whoever” is Mary herself - OF whom the Holy Spirit Filled Elizabeth attests:
In her humble holiness Mary calls herself a lowly handmaiden of the Lord. He has lifted her up. And the handmaiden gladly shares in His work.
Do you realize that you just said God gives her honor and therefore we should too?
To God be all the Glory and Honor?
Mary is a co-redemptrix because?
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