Mary Co-Redemptrix Poll

[unacanta]

One thing has not yet occured, James. Your faith can remain as simple as you wish, James. We believe in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. However, it doesn’t mean that we have a clue as to what this truly means, do we?

Andre

One thing we do know is Mary is not included in the Trinity.

 

[JRKH]

I probably didn’t need to bring that up as it opens the door for something not really on this thread. But here goes:

1. I got my definition of ‘faith’ from the late Dr. Gene Scott, who defined it thus: “Faith is action, based upon belief, supported by confidence.” The NT word for faith, pistis, is a translation of 3 Hebrew words: *chawsa *(to run to the shelter of a rock), *batawk *(to lean on a staff), *amen *(the state of inner certitude that automatically does the first two things). These are action words, but not just any action: they involve leaning on God’s promises, or running to the shelter of God’s promises. Which promise? Whichever fits your need. Sometimes the only action required is to rest and wait for God to fulfill His word to you, if you’ve already labored to enter into His rest (see Hebrews 4:11).
   2) Sin is to fall short of the Glory of God. And Romans 14:23 says that "everything that does not come from faith is sin."

Mary was saved by grace through faith through the one Mediator, Christ, just like the rest of us.

Now I see the problem with the earlier discussion. Your definition does not fit with the definitions in the CCC which would be the point of reference for many, if not most on this board. In order to have a meaningful discussion it is necessary to have a common understanding of definitions.

As to the validity of your reference in the circumstances being discussed, It was written in the NT and would not have been valid at the time. Mary and Joseph were operating under Mosaic Law. Therefore for your reference to be valid, it would have to be based in the OT Mosaic Law.

Also thank you for the explaination on the “The act is to rest” reference.

Peace
James

 

[MaryJohnZ]

You bring up an interesting point about “good”, and it makes me think. Thank you. My opinion of that conundrum is that God, the only Good One, makes us “good” when we are born again and His Spirit indwells us. But this is another matter.

I understand that “all” doesn’t mean “all”–you have to bring in context to help out. The context in this case is all men. Much less is there anything in the context to say Mary is excepted.

If she’s not a sinner, why did she rejoice in “God my savior”? What did He save her from?

There are different ways of saving someone. You can save someone from drowning by stopping them from going into the water in the first place. If God stops me from going to a party where people are involved with overdrinking by puttting an obstacle in my path, He has saved me from that occasion of sin just as much as if I did overdrink and then repented… In fact maybe the first kind of saving is a more perfect manner of being saved.

So our Blessed Saviour has saved many of us from sin, both sin we committed by giving the grace to repent,
and sin we have avoided…

Christ, as a perfect Saviour, could save someone perfectly…by perfectly preserving them from any stain of sin, by removing them from situations of sin, by giving them the grace to say “no” to any sin, by baptizing them at the very instant of their conception in the womb…

which is essentially what He did for Mary. In that regard, Christ is MORE Mary’s Saviour than ours because He allowed us to sin while He reveals His perfect salvific power in Mary…preserving her from any stain from the moment she was conceived. He was the “strong man” perfectly guarding the house He would dwell in.

Thus, Satan cannot ever say that God’s Mother was his in any way…

Isn’t it true faith to believe God could do that if He Willed to, and why would He not Will to preserve His own Mother from any sin?

MaryJohn

 

[JRKH]

You bring up an interesting point about “good”, and it makes me think. Thank you. My opinion of that conundrum is that God, the only Good One, makes us “good” when we are born again and His Spirit indwells us. But this is another matter.

I understand that “all” doesn’t mean “all”–you have to bring in context to help out. The context in this case is all men. Much less is there anything in the context to say Mary is excepted.

**If she’s not a sinner, why did she rejoice in “God my savior”? What did He save her from?/**QUOTE]

Origional sin?

 

[MaryJohnZ]

He saved her from original sin and preserved her from all other sin
during her life because afterall, the first Eve was created free from original sin but later sinned, …right?

 

[Goth_Catholic]

If she’s not a sinner, why did she rejoice in “God my savior”? What did He save her from?

Sin, but not sins she committed. He saved her from sin, period. From the moment of her conception, she was pure from sin, and her position as the Mother of God seals this. At the moment Gabriel greets her does not just say Ave Gratia Plena,(Hail full of grace) he says “Chaire Kecharitomene” meaning “Hail (my queen) who has been and continues to be bestowed with grace.” Mary was indeed saved by grace, but before Christ existed as man. She was filled with grace from the begining. She was saved by God before she gave birth to her son, indeed before she was born.

 

[deacon_d]

Sin, but not sins she committed. He saved her from sin, period. From the moment of her conception, she was pure from sin, and her position as the Mother of God seals this. At the moment Gabriel greets her does not just say Ave Gratia Plena,(Hail full of grace) he says “Chaire Kecharitomene” meaning “Hail (my queen) who has been and continues to be bestowed with grace.” Mary was indeed saved by grace, but before Christ existed as man. She was filled with grace from the begining. She was saved by God before she gave birth to her son, indeed before she was born.

Chaire Kecharitomene does not mean Hail my queen. You need to study greek before making this claim. Chaire Kecharitomene simply means hail favored.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Chaire Kecharitomene does not mean Hail my queen. You need to study greek before making this claim. Chaire Kecharitomene simply means hail favored.

You are the one who needs to study Greek my friend.
It does indeed mean Hail (my queen) it’s the form used only when addressing royality. The only other time it appears in the bible is when the soldiers mock Christ, saying to him “Hail the king of the Jews”.

And Kecharitomene does not mean simply favored. It’s the past perfect participle of charitoo, to be graced. Meaning that Mary was bestowed with grace and is continuely graced

 

[mich2]

One thing we do know is Mary is not included in the Trinity.

But how would this prove that she must not have been without sin

Andre

 

[MaryJohnZ]

But how would this prove that she must not have been without sin

Andre

By the meaning of “grace”. Sanctifying grace is God’s life in us. Actual grace is the grace by which we are enabled to do God’s Will, --, speak, pray, live as God’s children in the world. So if Mary is “full of grace” she is filled with God’s life and given what she needs to live according to God’s commandments. The virginity of Mary also represents her total being belonging to God, (Mary consecrated her whole being to God), and her ascent to the Angel " I am the servant of the Lord, be it done unto me according to your word", shows her complete surrender. Then she hurries to Elizabeth carrying God within her as the first missionary filled with His love and praise and she tells us “my soul magnifies the Lord”.
I don’t see anywhere in the gospels where this is diminished and
Mary says “I have sinned”, I found this quote from Martin Luther’s prayer book:“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.”

Mary

 

[mich2]

By the meaning of “grace”. Sanctifying grace is God’s life in us. Actual grace is the grace by which we are enabled to do God’s Will, --, speak, pray, live as God’s children in the world. So if Mary is “full of grace” she is filled with God’s life and given what she needs to live according to God’s commandments. The virginity of Mary also represents her total being belonging to God, (Mary consecrated her whole being to God), and her ascent to the Angel " I am the servant of the Lord, be it done unto me according to your word", shows her complete surrender. Then she hurries to Elizabeth carrying God within her as the first missionary filled with His love and praise and she tells us “my soul magnifies the Lord”.
I don’t see anywhere in the gospels where this is diminished and
Mary says “I have sinned”, I found this quote from Martin Luther’s prayer book:“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.”

Mary

I fully agree with what you wrote, Mary. I was asking unacanta,
a protestant, the question: ** how would this prove that she must not have been without sin** because he had written:
**One thing we do know is Mary is not included in the Trinity.
**

Andre

 

[Taliesin]

As to the validity of your reference in the circumstances being discussed, It was written in the NT and would not have been valid at the time. Mary and Joseph were operating under Mosaic Law. Therefore for your reference to be valid, it would have to be based in the OT Mosaic Law.

12 year old Jesus was also operating under the Mosaic Law, and rebuffed their chiding. So it’s a logical conclusion that they sinned, otherwise why the correction from the Son of Man?

Also thank you for the explaination on the “The act is to rest” reference.

Peace
James

You’re welcome.
-jkw

 

[Taliesin]

MaryJohnZ:
which is essentially what He did for Mary. In that regard, Christ is MORE Mary’s Saviour than ours because He allowed us to sin while He reveals His perfect salvific power in Mary…preserving her from any stain from the moment she was conceived.

You have no reason to believe this from the revelation God gave to us. It’s all made up outside of Scripture. The emotional power of Motherhood is so strong that it’s easy to make an idol of it, and this is what has happened with Mary, in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

He was the “strong man” perfectly guarding the house He would dwell in.

You’re misinterpreting that parable. The “strong man” is the Enemy. Jesus is the “stronger man”.

Isn’t it true faith to believe God could do that if He Willed to, and why would He not Will to preserve His own Mother from any sin?

MaryJohn

What about His father? What about His brothers? What about Mary’s mother? And her mother? Why single out Mary?

 

[Taliesin]

Sin, but not sins she committed. He saved her from sin, period. From the moment of her conception, she was pure from sin, and her position as the Mother of God seals this. At the moment Gabriel greets her does not just say Ave Gratia Plena,(Hail full of grace) he says “Chaire Kecharitomene” meaning “Hail (my queen) who has been and continues to be bestowed with grace.” Mary was indeed saved by grace, but before Christ existed as man. She was filled with grace from the begining. She was saved by God before she gave birth to her son, indeed before she was born.

kecharitomene means highly favored one. She was highly favored in that she was privileged to bear Jesus the Messiah. I consider that highly favored. But it’s a major leap of illogic to go from highly favored to sinless.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I fully agree with what you wrote, Mary. I was asking unacanta,
a protestant, the question: ** how would this prove that she must not have been without sin** because he had written:
**One thing we do know is Mary is not included in the Trinity.
**

Andre

Andre, I am not too good at this…get confused at times about who is saying what. So I hope I am responding to the right people but obviously make mistakes. Thanks! and God Bless.
MaryJohnz

 

[Goth_Catholic]

kecharitomene means highly favored one. She was highly favored in that she was privileged to bear Jesus the Messiah. I consider that highly favored. But it’s a major leap of illogic to go from highly favored to sinless.

It means having been and continueing to be bestowed with grace.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

You have no reason to believe this from the revelation God gave to us. Deus teneo meus lingua WE HAVE EVERY REASON! “What you shall bind on earth, I will bind in heaven, and what you loosen on earth I will loosen in heaven.”

It’s all made up outside of Scripture.
Deus meus. Lucifier feeds upon lies, why do you give him what he wants?

The emotional power of Motherhood is so strong that it’s easy to make an idol of it, and this is what has happened with Mary, in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
Deus tribuo misericordia. Your ignorance has reached a new level. If indeed it is ignorance. The CC and EO have existed far longer then your blasphemy. Indeed both hold the authority of the apostles, you do not. “Not everyone who says to me “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my father in heaven.” Matt 7:21

What about His father? What about His brothers? What about Mary’s mother? And her mother? Why single out Mary?

Because Mary was the blue veiled ark of the new covenant. The gate by which the Lord entered. The new Eve. Eve bore sin, Mary bore redemption.

 

[mich2]

Andre, I am not too good at this…get confused at times about who is saying what. So I hope I am responding to the right people but obviously make mistakes. Thanks! and God Bless.
MaryJohnz

Its ok, Mary. Im french; so I am not too good at expressing myself in english and I can understand why sometimes I get misunderstood.

Andre

 

[MaryJohnZ]

kecharitomene means highly favored one. She was highly favored in that she was privileged to bear Jesus the Messiah. I consider that highly favored. But it’s a major leap of illogic to go from highly favored to sinless.

If by faith you believe God possess perfect mercy.
And if by faith you believe God can do all things.
Then why would you have doubts that He would have at least one creature in which His perfect mercy was displayed?
He perfectly redeems Mary by preserving her from all stain of sin from conception
2. He perfectly preserves her by overflowing her with
super abundant graces so no sin can enter her
3. He perfectly embellishes her by allowing her to gain merit through her share in His ministry and through her trials, so that she might be an image of the “Bride without blemish”.

Thus Mary reveals Christ as perfect Redeemer.

Is it beyond your belief that God would do that for His Mother?
Since the commandments say “Honor your Father and your Mother”, then, if Christ did not perfectly preserve His own Mother from sin when it was within His ability to do so He would have failed in that commandment. Thus you are implying that Christ commited a sin when you imply that He would not or could not have preserved Mary from sin.
God Bless, maryjohn

 

[MaryJohnZ]

A thought occurred to me…
When the scriptures say Christ is the only one without sin the meaning is in regards to His Divine nature which is perfectly pure and spotless as the SOURCE of sinlessness. That is why they say He is the only one without sin. Others can be without sin but can never be the source of their own holiness.

So Mary can be sinless because her nature was completly resigned to God and His word: “I am the servant of the Lord, be it done unto me according to His word.” Thus she is the opposite of Satan who originated sin by grasping at the nature of God and claiming it as his own. Mary remains sinless by remaining dependent on God.

Thus Christ is the only one who is without sin because sin is outside of God, Mary is without sin by grace, surrender and humble dependance on God. Thus the words in the scriptures
do not negate or contradict the belief in Mary’s sinlessness.

God Bless, maryjohnz