Mary Co-Redemptrix Poll

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The quote does NOT support your claims or show that anything I have posted is wrong.
You are sooooo stubbornly ridged, and unreasonable, its unbelievable. You miss the point entirely. I am only trying to show you how the Church, Popes and Saints, teach us to be very open to what these approved apparitions are telling us. And yes, if you are closing your mind and heart to that, you are at great loss. It seems as tho nothing anyone can say will soften you.
 
QUOTE=Adhemar;3319793]Here is John Paul II from Salvifici Doloris 25:
It is especially consoling to note – and also accurate in accordance with the Gospel and history – that at the side of Christ, in the first and most exalted place, there is always His Mother through the exemplary testimony that she bears by her whole life to this particular Gospel of suffering. In her, the many and intense sufferings were amassed in such an interconnected way that they were not only a proof of her unshakable faith but also a contribution to the Redemption of all. … It was on Calvary that Mary’s suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world. Her ascent of Calvary and her standing at the foot of the cross together with the beloved disciple were a special sort of sharing in the redeeming death of her Son.
There is plenty more to find in the magisterial tradition, if one wants to look.
Just want you to know that my devotion to Mary is intense & that I am in no way, trying to downplay her part in our redemption. As a Mother myself, I believe that when one’s child is suffering the suffering of the Mother is, if not greater…at least as great.

It’s the term “co-redemptrix” that is my problem…not because of non-Catholic reaction to it, but because of the way that many Catholics may see this.

Co:
**1 : with : together : **joint : jointly ** **2 :

Again I assert that our own sinfulness REQUIRED the perfect Sacrifice…the Father REQUIRED the Sacrifice of His own Son.
 
Where does the Catechism tell us someone has to believe in private revelation?

Let’s go to the basics and stop the twisting and turning to look at it in in different lights –

Where does the Catechism tell us that someone who opts to ignore private revelation is doing anything negative (missing out, losing, sinning)?

What pope has ever insisted/mandated that some private revelation had to be believed in by all Catholics when it was approved???
The Pope doesn’t have to mandate belief in apparition. The mandate is implicit in Public Revelation which tells us we need to respond whenever God speaks to us. The Church and defined Dogma help us discern when this is happening and true. The responsibility to respond to God whenever He speaks is both a universal and a personal responsibility.it just isn’t within the scope of the Church’s role to regulate how each person’s soul responds. Thus they say it is “nonbinding”. The Church’s responsibility mis only to make sure the private Revelation is teaching something outside of Public revealtion. Once it does that then everyone has their own responsibility to respond. That responsibility is obligatory…not the responsibility to accept the Private Revealtion. However, if the Church has approved it would you not be putting your individual conscience over the judgment of the church if you reject it?

medjugorje.org/privaterevelation.htm

"The term “private” revelations has already for a long time become customary in theology. In contrast to it is public revelation. However, public revelation would be the one given in the Bible, and private the one given apart from the Bible. Accordingly, it would be more justifiable to speak of biblical and extra-biblical revelation. Assigning a greater honour and significance to the biblical than to the other has no real reason whatsoever. Because if they are both true, if they both come from God, according to their origin they are both divine and equally valuable. Both, the one and the other, God intends for people and wants them to accept both of them. Otherwise, there would be no reason for him to speak at all. If there may be some justifiable difference between them, it can never be in the sense that one is obligatory and the other is not. They are both obligatory. For every one that has been reached by them and for the one who has attained sufficient reasons and moral security regarding their authenticity, both of them oblige equally."

“St. Thomas of Aquinas says, “When there are no more revelations, people will be without guidance” (Summa II-II. q 174 a.6). This is the reason there have always been prophets in the Church who admittedly, did not proclaim some new doctrine, but gave direction to human activity. The same St. Thomas of Aquinas emphasizes, “Revelation is given for the benefit of the Church” (Summa II-II. q 172 a.4). It calls to a more authentic Christian life and points toward the necessity and the means that are of a higher priority. It is heaven’s response to particular questions of the times and it thereby helps more than any intellectual and theological endeavours.”

Since extra-biblical revelations are extraordinary and conspicuous, they usually produce more attention than the ordinary proclamation of biblical truths and Church directives and they act as “shock therapy.” It is well known that the apparitions in Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugorje intensified devotion and they have awakened spiritual life throughout the world. They contributed a great deal to the renewal of confession and reverence for the Eucharist.

Too great an emphasis on extra-biblical revelation in place of the gospel would not be healthy or normal. Biblical revelation takes preference but extra-biblical must not be rejected, simply because it also comes from God and because with it God wants to say something to man. That is why both cases God’s word is obligatory.

This article was written by a priest who is associated with Medugorje which has not yet been approved by the Church.
But can you see what he is saying?

We may not be a church of “apparitions” but we are a church of “revelations” and the Public Revelation contains within it all implicit revelation…those which are still to be explained and proclaimed explicitly. If the church says an approved apparition is not in any way contrary to Public Revelation we all have some spiritual obligation to *respond *to it…whether you accept it or not, ir should draw you attention to some aspect of Public teachings and make you more ware of them. If you are totally stubborn and just refuse to talk about Private Revelation, how can you be sure you are not blocking God’s Holy Spirit? How can a Church leader block these messages from others without assuming some responsibility for the possibility that he might be removing something that could help another person even if as an individual has decided not to accept it.

Shouldn’t the church leader take it more as their responsibility to explain the Private Revelation in terms of how it fits in with Public Revelation?
Wouldn’t that be a better approach than just totally ignoring it and just saying it is not obligatory? Otherwise are you not putting your own response (if it is to refuse the Apparition) above anyone else’s right to respond? That would be a way of blocking the Holy Spirit if the message is truly from God.
 
Just want you to know that my devotion to Mary is intense & that I am in no way, trying to downplay her part in our redemption. As a Mother myself, I believe that when one’s child is suffering the suffering of the Mother is, if not greater…at least as great.

It’s the term “co-redemptrix” that is my problem…not because of non-Catholic reaction to it, but because of the way that many Catholics may see this.

Co:
**1 : with : together : **joint : jointly **** 2 :

Again I assert that our own sinfulness REQUIRED the perfect Sacrifice…the Father REQUIRED the Sacrifice of His own Son.
CradleCath,
I’m afraid you are just doing this. :banghead: (Like I did)
Early in this thread, the definitions were discussed, and the marion zealot types just won’t listen.

This thread is up to 22 pages, and over 300 posts. The poll still stands at over 70% percent against. But still the argument goes on. Clear definitions, and simple facts are lost on some people (Just look at how frustrating the Pharasees were to our Lord.).

Fact: Mary co-operated with salvation. Mary did NOT co-redeem. No amount of philosophical, headspinning, word parsing, theologial hairsplitting will change that.
Fact: The Church does require that we accept the dogmas concerning the BVM. It does NOT require us to incorporate such dogmas into our devotional/prayer life.
Fact: We are free within the Church to decide for ourselves how much emphasis to place on Mary in our personal devotions.
Fact: The Church does not REQIURE marion devotion for salvation.

Peace
James
 
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CradleCath:
Just want you to know that my devotion to Mary is intense & that I am in no way, trying to downplay her part in our redemption. As a Mother myself, I believe that when one’s child is suffering the suffering of the Mother is, if not greater…at least as great.

It’s the term “co-redemptrix” that is my problem…not because of non-Catholic reaction to it, but because of the way that many Catholics may see this.

Co:
**1 : with : together : **joint : jointly ** **2 :
But this fits so perfectly with the Bible. The idea of spiritual union, the bride and the bridegroom are central themes. If anything we can see how those ideas have been trashed in our culture and need to be revived.

Again I assert that our own sinfulness REQUIRED the perfect Sacrifice…the Father REQUIRED the Sacrifice of His own Son.
 
The Church says private revelation is not binding - if it was important the Church would not say that.

So is the Church giving mixed messages? From your two most recent posts it would seem the is Church is doing just that.
Golly! would it be safe for me to say that you are not a big fan of Marian devotions?

Well it certainly isn’t binding… but then again one doesn’t need air conditioning in their car to drive through the mojave desert.

In my years of working around the church I have never met a serious Catholic that didn’t have a Marian devotion. I suppose its possible…but reality is The rosary and Marian devotions…(most of which are tied to private revelations) are making a HUGE comeback. Certainly this is upsetting for many.

I guess the big question would be why?

One must believe either Devotions are beneficial/detrimental or worthless. Of the three the church has indicated in the positive on only one of those three possibilities.
 
CradleCath,
I’m afraid you are just doing this. :banghead: (Like I did)
Early in this thread, the definitions were discussed, and the marion zealot types just won’t listen.

This thread is up to 22 pages, and over 300 posts. The poll still stands at over 70% percent against. But still the argument goes on. Clear definitions, and simple facts are lost on some people (Just look at how frustrating the Pharasees were to our Lord.).

Fact: Mary co-operated with salvation. Mary did NOT co-redeem. No amount of philosophical, headspinning, word parsing, theologial hairsplitting will change that.
Fact: The Church does require that we accept the dogmas concerning the BVM. It does NOT require us to incorporate such dogmas into our devotional/prayer life.
Fact: We are free within the Church to decide for ourselves how much emphasis to place on Mary in our personal devotions.
Fact: The Church does not REQIURE marion devotion for salvation.

Peace
James
It just boggles my mind at how some of you misunderstand things. Co-Redemptrix, does NOT mean Mary helped Jesus redeem us. We are all smart enough to know HE did that Himself with HIS Passion and Death. What it does mean is she Co-0perated in that by saying “Yes” to God and and bringing Him to earth so He could redeem us and she was with HIM all the way. The Church has always taught that. Where do you think you would be today without Our Blessed Mother. Now for polls, that doesn’t mean a thing, The Church, the Holy Spirit, doesn’t run on polls. Please just try to understand what we really are saying. If you are Catholic, you need to learn your faith better. If you are not Catholic then whats your problem?? You don’t believe anything we say anyway so what are you doing here trying to tell us what to believe. We have a God Given Pope.
 
Heres another note to mention.

I have read (zenit) and ratzingers books…and I am thinking that this will be recognized as dogma…

Then this whole thread will be moot. If this does become dogma…Catholics will be BOUND to believe it.

I hope it happens…but whatever Mother Church deicides for us it is for OUR benefit.
 
CradleCath,
I’m afraid you are just doing this. :banghead: (Like I did)
Early in this thread, the definitions were discussed, and the marion zealot types just won’t listen.

This thread is up to 22 pages, and over 300 posts. The poll still stands at over 70% percent against. But still the argument goes on. Clear definitions, and simple facts are lost on some people (Just look at how frustrating the Pharasees were to our Lord.).

Fact: Mary co-operated with salvation. Mary did NOT co-redeem. No amount of philosophical, headspinning, word parsing, theologial hairsplitting will change that.
Fact: The Church does require that we accept the dogmas concerning the BVM. It does NOT require us to incorporate such dogmas into our devotional/prayer life.
Fact: We are free within the Church to decide for ourselves how much emphasis to place on Mary in our personal devotions.
Fact: The Church does not REQIURE marion devotion for salvation.

Peace
James
From St. Louis de Montfort

*The cult of hyperdulia is offered to Mary since she is Mother of the Savior. But we should remember that for the same reason she is Mother of men, universal Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix.

What are the Fruits of this Cult?

The cult offered to Mary in the Church confirms in a general way the foundations of our faith since it derives from the Redemptive Incarnation. Thereby it destroys heresies: ‘Cunctas haereses interemisti in universo mundo.’ The same cult leads to holiness by suggesting the imitation of Mary’s virtues, and it glorifies the Son by honoring the Mother. *

catholictradition.org/Mary/mother-savior9.htm

something to consider…
 
With the spiritual organ of FREE WILL. You really do have a problem.
Sorry–let me clarify: what *divine *organs did she use? None. Jesus’s divinity did not have its source in Mary.
 
From St. Louis de Montfort

*The cult of hyperdulia is offered to Mary since she is Mother of the Savior. But we should remember that for the same reason she is Mother of men, universal Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix.

What are the Fruits of this Cult?

The cult offered to Mary in the Church confirms in a general way the foundations of our faith since it derives from the Redemptive Incarnation. Thereby it destroys heresies: ‘Cunctas haereses interemisti in universo mundo.’ The same cult leads to holiness by suggesting the imitation of Mary’s virtues, and it glorifies the Son by honoring the Mother. *

catholictradition.org/Mary/mother-savior9.htm

something to consider…
I’ll see your cult and raise you a verse:

“I am The Way, and The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14: 6

Through ME, not through US.

Something to Accept…

James
 
You are sooooo stubbornly ridged, and unreasonable, its unbelievable. You miss the point entirely. I am only trying to show you how the Church, Popes and Saints, teach us to be very open to what these approved apparitions are telling us. And yes, if you are closing your mind and heart to that, you are at great loss. It seems as tho nothing anyone can say will soften you.
You claim your ‘understanding’ of not binding is the right one - which puts the Church in a position of saying one thing and meaning another.

Yes - I am very rigid in my belief that the Church does not jerk the faithful around that way.
 
However, if the Church has approved it would you not be putting your individual conscience over the judgment of the church if you reject it?
Only if you are implying that such approval by the Church means one must believe that apparition.
If the church says an approved apparition is not in any way contrary to Public Revelation we all have some spiritual obligation to *respond *to it…whether you accept it or not, ir should draw you attention to some aspect of Public teachings and make you more ware of them.
Where do you get the authority and the backup to say that approval of an apparition puts any obligation on any Catholic?
I have seen nothing about that in the CCC.
 
Sorry–let me clarify: what *divine *organs did she use? None. Jesus’s divinity did not have its source in Mary.
Free will is spiritual, it does come from God. That is the greatest gift God created us with, even thou we can misuse it. No one ever said Jesus got His Divinity from Mary. But His Divinity did come to us thru Mary. He did get HIS human nature from her because she co-operated with God by her free will. Read the First Chapter of John, In the beginning…God chose to require Mary’s co-operation in bringing our Savior to us. He prepared her for that by her Immaculate Conception. Satan had NO control over her. Who knows what would have happened if she had said NO. She could have, she still had a free will, even with all the Graces God created her with. But she said yes and I will be eternally greatful for her love of God and love of us. God trusted her and I do toooooooo.
 
Just want you to know that my devotion to Mary is intense & that I am in no way, trying to downplay her part in our redemption. As a Mother myself, I believe that when one’s child is suffering the suffering of the Mother is, if not greater…at least as great.

It’s the term “co-redemptrix” that is my problem…not because of non-Catholic reaction to it, but because of the way that many Catholics may see this.
Understood. I agree it is a term that needs to be understood; but my fear is not how Catholics may see the term. Generally, arguments that any kind of subordinate mediation supplants or prejudices the one mediation of Christ are Protestant arguments. In fact, I have not seen arguments from Catholic tradition that undermine either the doctrine or nomenclature of Coredemption.

“Mother of God” is a term that can easily be misunderstood and, in fact, is misunderstood by many Protestants. Every theological term needs to be explained. To coredeem is “to redeem with.” Co- may mean either with in an equal way or with in a subordinate way. That part needs to be explained. The “with” in this case is subordinate.
 
Some commenting in this thread are speaking like the term and doctrine has never been part of magisterial and theological tradition of the Church. This simply is not true. In fact, the vast majority of theologians who are against the dogma, argue that the dogma is inopportune, not that the doctrine is not true.

There are plenty of resources on the web that follow the tradition of the Church and show the magisterial and doctrinal development of the Coredemption. If one just wants to start with JP II try this. In any case and with all do respect, I think a little more reading on the subject is in order.
 
I’ll see your cult and raise you a verse:

“I am The Way, and The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14: 6

Through ME, not through US.

Something to Accept…

James
The doctrine helps establish the total dignirty of each human life because it shows how Christ works in and through the individual person…and in a special way through Mary because she was
the Mother of the Redeemer.

"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

*20"I have been (B)crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but (C)Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in (D)the Son of God, who (E)loved me and (F)gave Himself up for me.

Galatians 2:19-21 (New American Standard Bible)*

So who can better say that they had been crucified with Christ than Mary?

If we live a life that totally seeks union with Christ His Presence in us can grow until His thoughts are ours, His desires our ours, His Will takes the place of ours…everything we do becomes something He does in and through us. So this does not negate the statement that Christ is the Way… but it shows that by union with Christ we can become ‘other Christs’ , each according to their own abilities and gifts so that we are not equal to Christ but resemble Him in all ways we are capable of doing.
He can work in and through our own lives to establish His Kingdom and save souls.

So we can all be co-redeemers in a lesser sense than Mary, because I cannot imagine being as close to Jesus as she must have been.

Maybe it is harder for men to understand this because they never carried a child through a nine month pregnancy, nursed the child, and cared for them until they were grown. That is a unique relationship between any two people…
 
Understood. I agree it is a term that needs to be understood; but my fear is not how Catholics may see the term. Generally, arguments that any kind of subordinate mediation supplants or prejudices the one mediation of Christ are Protestant arguments. In fact, I have not seen arguments from Catholic tradition that undermine either the doctrine or nomenclature of Coredemption.

“Mother of God” is a term that can easily be misunderstood and, in fact, is misunderstood by many Protestants. Every theological term needs to be explained. To coredeem is “to redeem with.” Co- may mean either with in an equal way or with in a subordinate way. That part needs to be explained. The “with” in this case is subordinate.
Please refer to post number 131 on this thread for some clarificaton on a concern here. Yes “Co-” can mean “in a subordinate role” but in each case subordinate person carries the same “ability” on there own. i.e. a co-pilot is also a pilot.
So the general idea of someone being a Co-Redeemer, even in a subordinate role, still carries with it the idea that this “person” could redeem on their own. (like the co-pilot can fly a plane.)

Again and again I say, it isn’t a question of Mary’s role, it is a question of 1) a troublesome term being dogmatically procaimed and 2) is it necessary to salvation.

I pray the Church leaves well enough alone.

Peace
James
 
The doctrine helps establish the total dignirty of each human life because it shows how Christ works in and through the individual person…and in a special way through Mary because she was
the Mother of the Redeemer.
And the point would be to the discussion of this title?
**If we live a life that totally seeks union with Christ His Presence in us can grow until His thoughts are ours, His desires our ours, His Will takes the place of ours…everything we do becomes something He does in and through us. So this does not negate the statement that Christ is the Way… but it shows that by union with Christ we can become ‘other Christs’ , each according to their own abilities and gifts so that we are not equal to Christ but resemble Him in all ways we are capable of doing.
He can work in and through our own lives to establish His Kingdom and save souls. **
AHA I think you’ve nailed here. If we become one with Christ, Christ can work through us to redeem souls. But by becoming one with Christ, there is no longer a me involved. Only christ and His will and desire. Therefore Christ is still the redeemer, and I nothing.
So we can all be co-redeemers in a lesser sense than Mary, because I cannot imagine being as close to Jesus as she must have been.
See above. Christ remains THE Redeemer. It doesn’t matter how close Mary is to Jesus except as a role model. Someone to emulate.
Maybe it is harder for men to understand this because they never carried a child through a nine month pregnancy, nursed the child, and cared for them until they were grown. That is a unique relationship between any two people…
Or maybe it makes women too suseptable to this idea.😛
As a mother, how would you feel if you were in the middle of an argument among your children that was so vehement?

I honestly find all of this arguing back and forth most distracting. If anything it is driving a wedge into my relationship with Our Blessed Mother and not helping. I should have unsubscribed to this thread days ago, but since I started it I felt an obligation.

I will say that I think both sides have already said more than enough in defense or opposition, and the poll speaks for itself.
It is my intent to ask the moderators to close this thread once the poll closes on the 19th.
 
Understood. I agree it is a term that needs to be understood; but my fear is not how Catholics may see the term. Generally, arguments that any kind of subordinate mediation supplants or prejudices the one mediation of Christ are Protestant arguments. In fact, I have not seen arguments from Catholic tradition that undermine either the doctrine or nomenclature of Coredemption.

“Mother of God” is a term that can easily be misunderstood and, in fact, is misunderstood by many Protestants. Every theological term needs to be explained. To coredeem is “to redeem with.” Co- may mean either with in an equal way or with in a subordinate way. That part needs to be explained. The “with” in this case is subordinate.
God, knowing many would misunderstand the title, "Theotokos, (God-bearer) did not prevent the Council of Ephesus, 431, from making it an official of the Church. It means Mother of GOD. The Church doesn’t do this to upset the non-catholics, but to clarify and increase the faith of Catholics and to bring the truth to all man-kind.
 
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