Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[porthos11]

I find it somewhat humiliating to describe Her as “bearer” only. She was so much more than that!

She raised our Savior, lived with Him for 30 years, and went through His Passion to the fullest. Then She was appointed by him as a mother of the Church. Was anyone more suitable for this mission? No. She was specially prepared for it, destined by God.

As Jesus is the model of the new Adam, so she is the model of the new Eve. New Humans for the redemption of the old.

“Theotokos” God-bearer is in fact the original title defined at the Council of Ephesus.

 

[annad347]

I go to a Lutheran services every Sunday, Catholic service Sunday and Wednesday, and I use to go to a Non-denominational service Tuesday nights but not as much.

 

[Gorgias]

Pope Francis says having Mary as co-redemptrix is foolishness … any thoughts?

Yes. I thought a few interesting assertions in the article were:

• folks who identify as “conservative Catholic” tend to fall into the pro-“co-Redemptrix” camp
• Pope Francis said he opposes the idea
• Pope Benedict likewise had said that he opposes the idea
• and yet, this is laid at the feet of Pope Francis, with a sort of negative connotation.

Fascinating!

 

[annad347]

This is not about Mary and ‘her titles’ but about Jesus, who HE is

That doesn’t explain why, people feel so strongly the necessity of the titles, especially if they are all a reflection of Jesus is… is that really necessairy for us to understand Jesus, to give His "mother a title, a few people pointed out, she would have never wanted… so why is it so important for her to have them… they do not change who she is in any way.

And FYI, Mary was a special woman, full of Grace but she was technically a normal mother when it came to her child… she loved Him, cared for Him, lost Him, asked Him do things for her, bragged about Him to anyone and everyone, then cried for Him when He died…what true, loving, mother would do any differently?

 

[EndTimes]

Even Mary needed Salvation // Redemption

She cannot have been on an Equal Footing with Jesus with regard to Redemption…

 

[MikeInVA]

Fully agree with Pope Francis… foolishness!

Mary is more like us than she is like God. The only way to understand Mary a co redemtrix correctly is highly nuanced and easily misunderstood because it can not be taken at face value… in other words the juice is not worth the squeeze.

I guess I’m just being foolish every time I pray the Hail Mary…and I’m ok with that.

 

[EndTimes]

Mary is not to be denigrated . She is Blessed… She, Chosen, bore to us God’s Savior…

The Hail Mary? Why foolish? (unless one was being rhetorical)

… is not lessened if Mary is not a full Equal of Jesus…

 

[Nicene]

My personal opinion as to why I think Pope Francis and predecessors are right and why I believe the BVM would not endorse this title and understanding:

Lk 1:46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great thing for me, and Holy is His name.

Just my 2 cents

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Joe_5859]

From what I understand the Vatican II documents describe her as co-Redemptrix without ever giving her that title because that was the concern at that time, that it would confuse non-Catholics.

Actually, Lumen Gentium stopped short of calling her Co-Redemptrix.

LG 62 says:

Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)

 

[Tolle_Lege]

I think we can understand these things about Mary without assigning various titles to her. As long as we understand her role in salvation history, I don’t think we need to apply all of these different names to her. She’s not our showpiece to decorate with clever theology. This “naming of Mary” begins to take on a cultish feel that I’m sure she would not have wanted.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Actually, Lumen Gentium stopped short of calling her Co-Redemptrix.

Yes, exactly.

 

[Joe_5859]

Some have pointed out that all mariological doctrines are only defined insofar as they tell us something about Christ. That is certainly true. However, I can see a teaching on Mary’s role in salvation history as telling us a lot about Christ and how he wants to work through us to help each other along. Not that Mary or anyone “saves” another person directly, but that we can cooperate with Christ to facilitate conversion.

I certainly defer to the last three popes who have more or less given a polite, “Thanks, but no thanks” when requested to define this as dogma.

As long as we understand her role in salvation history, I don’t think we need to apply all of these different names to her.

Mary already has many different names and titles. Just look at the Litany of Mary. I’m with you, though. What would most interest me in the hypothetical declaration of a 5th Marian dogma is to see the Church authoritatively articulate Mary’s role in salvation history. I’m less concerned about the title they give for her to do that. Honestly, Mediatrix makes a lot more sense that Co-Redemptrx if we are looking for one title to encapsulate the teaching (a la Theotokos).

 

[Joe_5859]

Yes, exactly.

Ah, I just re-read your post and now I realize that’s what you were saying, too.

 

[godisgood77]

I guess I’m just being foolish every time I pray the Hail Mary…and I’m ok with that.

I can’t tell if you’re kidding or not… but to be clear, no one even hinted at praying the Hail Mary being a foolish thing. Pope Francis’ devotion to Mary has been on full display since day 1 of his pontificate.

In this statement he is showing that inflated and confusing titles is not a good thing. This is inline with Pope Emeritus Benedict on the topic.

 

[CradleRC58]

Co redemptrix ? No
Mediatrix ? Yes

That’s how the church has always seen it.

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . . .

She cannot have been on an Equal Footing with Jesus with regard to Redemption…

Who here said the Blessed Virgin Mary was “on an Equal Footing with Jesus with regard to Redemption”?

 

[Cathoholic]

CradleRC58 . . . .

Co redemptrix ? No
Mediatrix ? Yes

That’s how the church has always seen it.

.

The Church . . .

CCC 618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”.452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”,454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to ASSOCIATE with his REDEEMING sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is ACHEIVED supremely in the case of HIS MOTHER, who was ASSOCIATED more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his REDEMPTIVE suffering.457

Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.

.

Mary, consenting to the word of God, became the Mother of Jesus. Committing herself wholeheartedly and impeded by no sin to God’s saving will, she devoted herself totally, as a handmaid of the Lord, to the person and work of her Son, under AND WITH him, serving the mystery of REDEMPTION, by the grace of Almighty God. – Vatican II Lumen Gentium 56

.

LUKE 2:34-35 34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against 35 (and a sword will pierce through YOUR own soul ALSO ), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.”

Emphasis mine.

 

[njlisa]

I love the Blessed Mother with all my heart.

The Blessed Mother always leads us to her son, as we see at Cana. She is vital in the story of salvation. In humility and courage, she agreed to bring the Son of God into the world.

The titles of mediatrix of all graces and co-redemptrix muddy the waters. Before the birth of Jesus, all graces came from God. The Blessed Mother stood at the foot of the cross. But her Divine Son died on the cross. There is a huge difference.

The Holy Father’s use of the word “foolishness” is over the top. But he does that all the time.

 

[fide]

Sometimes, things that “muddy the waters” can invite (or challenge) a man to find clarity in the waters - to greater clarity than they had before they got “muddied.” To continue the analogy: if the lower places of the stream have mud calmly resting there, at the bottom, all seems well. The water looks clean and calm. But the imperfect mud is there, nevertheless, unseen and unacknowledged, and covering things unknown.

But then some surprise gets introduced - thoughts, speculations, descriptions, possibilities - and the stream gets stirred up, the mud gets disturbed, stirred up, and the waters become muddied.

What is better: to see the evidence, to know of the mud at the bottom - or - to wrongly believe that the bottom is as clean and pure as the calm water seemed to show, before the intrusion of confusing possibilities?

Mary is much, much more - and more significant - and more important - and more wonderful than many modern Catholics realize.

Some testimonies I found on-line:

“We never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son.”
–Saint Louis Marie de Montfort

“The greatest saints, those richest in grace and virtue will be the most assiduous in praying to the most Blessed Virgin, looking up to her as the perfect model to imitate and as a powerful helper to assist them.”
–Saint Louis Marie de Montfort

‘Mary having co-operated in our redemption with so much glory to God and so much love for us, Our Lord ordained that no one shall obtain salvation except through her intercession.’
–St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

“Men do not fear a powerful hostile army as the powers of hell fear the name and protection of Mary.”
–St. Bonaventure

“To give worthy praise to the Lord’s mercy, we unite ourselves with Your Immaculate Mother, for then our hymn will be more pleasing to You, because She is chosen from among men and angels. Through Her, as through a pure crystal, Your mercy was passed on to us. Through Her, man became pleasing to God; Through Her, streams of grace flowed down upon us.” (1746)
–St. Faustina

 

[Nicene]

Mary having co-operated in our redemption with so much glory to God and so much love for us, Our Lord ordained that no one shall obtain salvation except through her intercession.’
–St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

This is actually a problem. When did Jesus ever say no one gets to heaven except through Mary? We get to heaven through Jesus sacrifice on the cross and no other way.

Protestants are spot on when we are accused of idolatry when things like this are promulgated. She did not redeem us (co-redemptrix) And there is a reason the church in her wisdom never adopted such.

St Alphonses may be a saint but that doesn’t mean a saint was always right.

Mary is our Mom but this conflates her with divinity.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene