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godisgood77
Guest
This is a great point … we have an abundance of truth in the Church’s core teaching l. Why do we look for fringe interpretations that stretch the truth?
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godisgood77
Guest
I do not see Co-redemptrix in anything you posted.
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fide
Guest
You are right that previous history can leave barriers in the heart and mind, barriers that obscure truth with “clouded vision.” But this does not radically change the truth that Jesus taught - although the time to find truth may be delayed by harmful histories.
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stuartallen
Guest
hi everyone
if it helps this is my understanding…
when Lord Jesus hung upon The Cross The Holy Spirit had to leave Him and Father God had to look away
“My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me”
so Jesus had only His connection to Our Blessed Mother Mary to ‘hold onto’
it was Mary Who remained united to Him throughout His ordeal
it was Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart that helped Him through
He could and would have done it without Her
but Father God didn’t Will it that way
He Willed Mary be stood at the foot of The Cross totally united to His Son Jesus in suffering…Immaculate Heart united to Sacred Heart
the title Co-Redemptrix simply acknowledges and honors that
Pax Christi
love to one and all
if it helps this is my understanding…
when Lord Jesus hung upon The Cross The Holy Spirit had to leave Him and Father God had to look away
“My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me”
so Jesus had only His connection to Our Blessed Mother Mary to ‘hold onto’
it was Mary Who remained united to Him throughout His ordeal
it was Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart that helped Him through
He could and would have done it without Her
but Father God didn’t Will it that way
He Willed Mary be stood at the foot of The Cross totally united to His Son Jesus in suffering…Immaculate Heart united to Sacred Heart
the title Co-Redemptrix simply acknowledges and honors that
Pax Christi
love to one and all
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Vico
Guest
Mediatrix is the ancient title. The Theological Commission of the Pontifical International Marian Academy reported on the Request for the definition of the dogma of Mary as Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate in the late 1990s, recommended against a change because it would be lacking in theological clarity.
https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/m/mediatrix-coredemptrix-and-advocate-declaration.php
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whatistrue
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Seriously? I would think the answer to that would be obvious, no matter what words came after “envisioned”.
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Vico
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Of course.Vico:
I wonder if Jesus ever envisioned such an entity when he founded the Church?
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whatistrue
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I thought He was acting in His divine nature when He was founding the Church though.
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whatistrue
Guest
Usually I try to figure it out by context. “On this rock I will build My church” sounds like the divine nature to me. In His human nature He tended to use things like “My Father’s house”.
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fhansen
Guest
This makes a lot of sense to me. It can’t be over-emphasized IMO that our faith revolves first of all around man’s critical need for God, as He’s been revealed in the person of Jesus Christ, because communion with God is precisely what is missing in our lives beginning at least with the Fall. And we don’t need anything that might compromise or cause confusion regarding that understanding.
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Cathoholic
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godisgood77 . . .
NOT CCC 618b In fact Jesus does NOT wish to associate his redeeming sacrifice with anyone else. So no co-redeemer stuff. Get it? It is not even achieved in the case of his mother, so don’t expect it yourself either. This mystery of Jesus redemptive suffering will never be associated by grace with anyone else intimately or superficially and don’t you forget it!
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NOT CCC 618b In fact Jesus does NOT wish to associate his redeeming sacrifice with anyone else. So no co-redeemer stuff. Get it? It is not even achieved in the case of his mother, so don’t expect it yourself either. This mystery of Jesus redemptive suffering will never be associated by grace with anyone else intimately or superficially and don’t you forget it!
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So we have . . .
- This is Jesus’ desire
- It is His redeeming sacrifice
- Jesus (this is by grace) ASSOCIATES His redemptive sacrifice with others.
- Jesus gives special gifts of this ASSOCIATING of His Redemptive sacrifice to the first beneficiaries of this redemptive sacrifice (the early Church)
- Jesus supremely ASSOCIATED His Redemptive sacrifice with His Mother (Mary).
- Jesus Redemptive sacrifice is MORE INTIMATELY ASSOCIATED with the Blessed Virgin Mary than anyone else. Anyone else. Anyone else. (“More intimately” than with “any other person”)
- How and WHY our Lord Jesus associates His redemptive sacrifice with others, and with Mother Mary more so than others is a mystery.
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whatistrue
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Nothing that adds up to Co-Redemptrix. At least not that I can see in what you wrote.
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Cathoholic
Guest
whatistrue . . . .
I stated . . .
Jesus supremely ASSOCIATED His Redemptive sacrifice with His Mother (Mary).
I was taking that from the Catechism.
Jesus supremely ASSOCIATED His Redemptive sacrifice with His Mother (Mary).
We have Jesus. Check.
We have an association and even the word “with” or “cum” or “co”. Check.
We have Jesus REDEMPTive sacrifice. Check.
And we have the Blessed Virgin Mary. Check.
“Co” (“cum”) means “with”. (Like “cum laude” or with honors)
I stated . . .
Jesus supremely ASSOCIATED His Redemptive sacrifice with His Mother (Mary).
I was taking that from the Catechism.
Jesus supremely ASSOCIATED His Redemptive sacrifice with His Mother (Mary).
We have Jesus. Check.
We have an association and even the word “with” or “cum” or “co”. Check.
We have Jesus REDEMPTive sacrifice. Check.
And we have the Blessed Virgin Mary. Check.
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whatistrue
Guest
Sorry, but to me that is a series of stretches. Not a convincing argument in my mind.
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Cathoholic
Guest
whatistrue . . .
That’s exactly WHY I am taking this right from the Catechism, Church documents, and Scripture.
But that’s fine if you cannot see this.
Pray and meditate on it and see where our Lord leads you.
I have no idea about your background, but I think a defective soteriology COULD hinder seeing this for some Bible-only Christians.
If you want to know why I can explain it.
It has to do with what I call “The Gospel of Participation in Christ Jesus”.
I think for people that can see this participation in justification, will be more easily able to see their own (and how much more the Blessed Virgin Mary’s) participation in Jesus’ redemption.
We REALLY are joined as the Mystical Body of Christ.
But if you cannot see this, you can’t see it.
Remember. None of these Popes are denying the fact that this occurs.
They just think their definition would confuse people.
Maybe the next Pope will think he can define it better to dispel confusion. Or maybe this Pope will think that next month about himself or whatever.
But nobody (in “Rome”) is disputing this in principle.
Pray about it whatistrue. See where God takes you with that.
God bless.
Cathoholic
It’s not “stretches” at all.
That’s exactly WHY I am taking this right from the Catechism, Church documents, and Scripture.
But that’s fine if you cannot see this.
Pray and meditate on it and see where our Lord leads you.
I have no idea about your background, but I think a defective soteriology COULD hinder seeing this for some Bible-only Christians.
If you want to know why I can explain it.
It has to do with what I call “The Gospel of Participation in Christ Jesus”.
I think for people that can see this participation in justification, will be more easily able to see their own (and how much more the Blessed Virgin Mary’s) participation in Jesus’ redemption.
We REALLY are joined as the Mystical Body of Christ.
But if you cannot see this, you can’t see it.
Remember. None of these Popes are denying the fact that this occurs.
They just think their definition would confuse people.
Maybe the next Pope will think he can define it better to dispel confusion. Or maybe this Pope will think that next month about himself or whatever.
But nobody (in “Rome”) is disputing this in principle.
Pray about it whatistrue. See where God takes you with that.
God bless.
Cathoholic
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godisgood77
Guest
Cathoholic… thanks for your CCC references. I still do not see co-redemptrix.
I see clearly though that Mary and those were to be its first beneficiaries are associated with His work. I don’t anyone is arguing against this.
Being associated with Jesus’ sacrifice or witnessing Jesus’ redemptive suffering, does not make one share it. Sure Mary, suffered watching her son die, just like anyone would when watching their child or a loved one die.
Associate sure, Co-redemptrix. Ratzinger and Pope Francis say no… me too.
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whatistrue
Guest
I do in fact see what you are saying. It simply does not hang together as a whole. And it is not as widely accepted, according to what I have read, as you seem to imply. But that is all good too. I have nothing further to say on this subject.
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Cathoholic
Guest
po18guy . . .
More precision removes arrows, not adds to them.
If the current people in “Rome” don’t think they are up to the task of clarity here,
I agree with them by proverbial definition. Just by virtue of them stating this, I would tend to agree.
There are already those “arrows” in CCC 618.
More precision removes arrows, not adds to them.
If the current people in “Rome” don’t think they are up to the task of clarity here,
I agree with them by proverbial definition. Just by virtue of them stating this, I would tend to agree.
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Cathoholic
Guest
godisgood77 . . .
They say “no” to the definition at this time. Not “no” to the doctrine which we already have.
No they don’t.
They say “no” to the definition at this time. Not “no” to the doctrine which we already have.
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Cathoholic
Guest
whatistrue . . .
But please don’t neglect praying about this.
I will try to put up some soteriological verses here concerning what I call “The Gospel of Participation in Christ Jesus” when I get near a computer. I’ll tag you when I get around to doing this.
(It is just a way to think about how Jesus works. Not so much a proof text here regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary as co-redemptrix.)
Please look at them, meditate on them and see if they cannot apply to redemption too by virtue of you being IN Christ Jesus.
God bless.
Cathoholic
That’s fair enough.
But please don’t neglect praying about this.
I will try to put up some soteriological verses here concerning what I call “The Gospel of Participation in Christ Jesus” when I get near a computer. I’ll tag you when I get around to doing this.
(It is just a way to think about how Jesus works. Not so much a proof text here regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary as co-redemptrix.)
Please look at them, meditate on them and see if they cannot apply to redemption too by virtue of you being IN Christ Jesus.
God bless.
Cathoholic
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