Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[annad347]

Sorry, but some posters here are just one Pope away from calling Mary your Redeemer… IMO.

Be careful, remember Jesus is your Savior.

Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (you know where it is… same location in ALL bibles)

God Bless.

 

[Nicene]

If you weren’t referring to me as placating Protestants from 3 posts (106) earlier than that and downplaying Mary I apologize.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[steph03]

Sorry, but some posters here are just one Pope away from calling Mary your Redeemer… IMO.

Be careful, remember Jesus is your Savior.

Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (you know where it is… same location in ALL bibles)

Not accurate… But as an ex Lutheran here is a video that could explain to you quickly the different theology we get from Catholicism and protestants on the subject and why there is a lack of understanding.

 

[Cathoholic]

OK @whatistrue. I did the “homework” on your behalf (looked up where I had the verses and formatted and posted them).

Here it is posted below.

Some verses from what I call
"The Gospel of Participation" in the life and death (and Resurrection) of Jesus Christ.

(This exact paradigm is WHY many Bible Christians object to the necessity of works AFTER you become a child of God.

They rightly insist you cannot work on your own in terms of justifying grace.

They wrongly ignore that Catholics agree with that but the WORKS Catholics assert as contributing to eternal life are “co” or “with” Jesus Christ (like Galatians 6:7-8 differentiates).

(The exact principle used in the doctrine of Mother Mary as Coredemptrix.)

These workings IN and WITH Christ Jesus DO matter.
In this sense
you CAN SEW unto eternal life
as Galatian 6:7-8 just matter-of-factly assumes you know . . . in the sense of “co” or WITH Jesus.

.

CCC 1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ,
the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,”
in union with the only Son.
He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

ROMANS 6:3-5 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus
were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

2nd PETER 1:2-4 2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature .

PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation
with fear and trembling; 13
for God is at work in you,
both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him,
then, we entreat you
not to accept the grace of God in vain.

1/2 . . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

2/2 . . . .

PHILIPPIANS 4:13 13 I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

GALATIANS 2:20 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me ; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

EPHESIANS 3:20-21 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far
more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

HEBREWS 13:20a, 21 20 “Now may the God of peace . . . . 21 equip you with
everything good that you may do His will, working in you
that which is pleasing in His sight
through Jesus Christ;
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1st THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

COLOSSIANS 1:24 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh
I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions
for the sake of his body, that is, the church.

ROMANS 8:15-17 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but
you have received the spirit of sonship.
When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is
the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit
that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ,
provided we suffer with him
in order that we may also be glorified with him.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes but “misunderstandings” can be overcome with a refined definition.

I dunno about that. There are plenty of “refined definitions” about existing Catholic doctrines, and yet there remain plenty of folks who continue to hold to their misunderstandings of Catholic doctrine:

• Catholics “re-crucify” Jesus at each Mass
• Catholics are idol-worshippers
• Catholics worship Mary as a goddess

I think it’s rather prudent to recognize that the declaration of “co-redemptrix” would serve to harden the hearts of those who believe that we worship Mary as a goddess and as an equal to Jesus.

Sorry, but some posters here are just one Pope away from calling Mary your Redeemer … IMO.

See what I mean, @Cathoholic?

Do you affirm
His mother, the Vlessed Virgin Mary was more intimately associated with His redemptive suffering than anyone else?

“more intimately associated with Jesus’ redemptive suffering” =/= “co-redemptrix”

 

[Cathoholic]

Gorgias . . .

There are plenty of “refined definitions” about existing Catholic doctrines, and yet there remain plenty of folks who continue to hold to their misunderstandings of Catholic doctrine:

• Catholics “re-crucify” Jesus at each Mass . . .

The answer for this is better catechesis and evangelization.

Not doing away with the Mass (as your principle suggests we should do. I am not saying you think this Gorgias. I know your fine posts and realize you DON’T think this.

I am just saying your PRINCIPLE almost demands it if you carry it out to its logical conclusions at least pre-emptively).

And I am saying, I disagree.

.

You also said in that context . . . .

Catholics worship Mary as a goddess

Some people DO accuse us falsely of this.
But the proper veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary has led to much more good in my opinion (i.e. Our Lady of Gudalupe).

I think it’s rather prudent to recognize that the declaration of “co-redemptrix” would serve to harden the hearts of those . . .

You are free to think that.

I think it is true in some cases.
In others it will also be a gain.

I think that if it is defined, it will be a gain.

I’m entitled to my opinion.

I get behind Pope Francis in NOT defining this.

But another Pope who may come along who teaches with greater clarity may be the right person that God may want to work through.

These are appropriate opinions I am holding and I stand by them.

 

[Gorgias]

Not doing away with the Mass (as your principle suggests we should do

Huh? Where’d you get that from?

The answer for this is better catechesis and evangelization.

Except that those who will hold on to their misunderstanding are the same ones who already ignore the “refined definitions” of other points of Catholic doctrine.

I’m entitled to my opinion.

Of course you are. But, to quote you, “you are free to think that” and “I disagree”.

 

[Cathoholic]

Where’d you get that from?

The principle?

Right from your example .

Jesus could have used your reasoning here and preemptively applied that to the Mass and said. . . .

"Weeell some people are going to wrongly think that we re-crucify Me at each Mass.

So in the spirit of not offending, and hardening the hearts, and prudence, and all of that, we just better hold off on the Mass."

.

Cathoholic . . . .

The answer for this is better catechesis and evangelization.

Gorgias . . .

Except that those who will hold on to their misunderstanding are the same ones who already ignore the “refined definitions” of other points of Catholic doctrine.

Except that you are not taking the gains into consideration. Nor can you as this is supernatural.

 

[Gorgias]

The principle?

Right from your example .

Jesus could have used your reasoning here and preemptively applied that to the Mass and said. . . .

"Weeell some people are going to wrongly think that we re-crucify Me at each Mass.

So in the spirit of not offending, and hardening the hearts, and prudence, and all of that, we just better hold off on the Mass."

Got it. You misunderstand what I’m saying, then. I’m not proposing removing existing doctrine. Rather, I’m saying that your notion of “refined definitions” doesn’t work in already-proclaimed doctrine, so it doesn’t really give us hope that “refined definitions” about a “co-redemptrix” will lead to better understanding, as you claim it will.

In other words: nice red herring.

Except that you are not taking the gains into consideration. Nor can you as this is supernatural.

By that standard, neither can you assert net “gains”.

 

[Cathoholic]

Gorgias . . . .

But, to quote you, “you are free to think that” and “I disagree”.

The problem with that Gorgias, is I am not urging the definition (at this time).

Nor is the Pope rejecting the definition for all time.

So far, I am just posting part of the doctrine.

And you are not free to reject that. At least as it is stated in the CCC.

 

[Gorgias]

So far, I am just posting part of the doctrine.

And you are not free to reject that. At least as it is stated in the CCC.

Except that the text that you’re quoting isn’t a “doctrine of the co-redemptrix”. That’s merely your spin on it.

 

[Cathoholic]

If you think Jesus associating His redemptive work,
does not mean associating His redemptive work,
go ahead and think that.

CCC 618b, d In fact Jesus desires to associate (people) with his redeeming sacrifice . . .
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.

Parenthetical addition mine.

Go ahead and think this is mere “spin”.
As for other readers.
Just read the text and draw your own conclusions.

This is exactly what the prophet Simeon was talking about
when he told the Blessed Virgin Mary,
“a sword will pierce your own soul too” . . .
(That is WHY CCC 618 footnotes Luke 2:35 in footnote 457.)

 

[Cathoholic]

Gorgias . . . .

Except that the text that you’re quoting isn’t a “doctrine of the co-redemptrix”

That’s OK if you think that.

Do you think Jesus wants to associate His redemptive sacrifice on Calvary with ANY of humanity?

And if yes, do you affirm this is preeminently true (“supremely”) concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary exactly as CCC 618 states and that it was “achieved”?

And if yes, would this be a grace consistent with the Divine will (“Jesus desires”)?

Here it is again Gorgias . . . .

CCC 618b, d In fact Jesus desires to associate (people) with his redeeming sacrifice . . .
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering .

Above parenthetical addition mine for context.

Here is the entire paragraph too.

CCC 618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”.452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”,454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering .457

Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458

 

[Cathoholic]

In his encyclical, Jucunda Semper, Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903) teaches that Mary shared with Jesus the painful atonement on behalf of the human race in the depths of her soul: “When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with Him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race… (at the foot of the cross) she willingly offered Him up to divine justice, dying with Him in her heart, pierced by the sword of sorrow.” (6)

The “Rosary Pope” of the nineteenth century also began a series of successive papal teachings which identify the Mother of the Lord as a “cooperatrix” (“co-operare,” to work with) in the distribution of the graces of Redemption as a direct result of her cooperation in the obtaining of the graces of Redemption: “She who had been the cooperatrix in the sacrament of man’s Redemption, would be likewise the cooperatrix in the dispensation of graces deriving from it.” (7) Again, Our Lady is Mediatrix of all graces because she is first the Co-redemptrix; there is acquisition of grace before its distribution. The “Mother suffering” becomes the “Mother nourishing.”

St. Pius X (1903-1914) carries on the papal tribute to Marian Coredemption in his first Marian encyclical, Ad Diem Illum (1904). In this famous text, the Pope of the Eucharist gives papal authority to the many previous theological testimonies to Mary’s share in the merits of Redemption in light of her joint suffering with the Redeemer:

Owing to the union of suffering and purpose existing between Christ and Mary, she merited to become most worthily the reparatrix of the lost world, and for this reason, the dispenser of all the favors which Jesus acquired for us by His death and His blood…. Nevertheless, because she surpasses all in holiness and in union with Christ, and because she was chosen by Christ to be His partner in the work of human salvation, she merits for us de congruo, as they say, that which Christ merited for us de condigno, and she is the principal dispenser of the graces to be distributed. (8)

Popes of the Marian Age and Mary Co-redemptrix

Building upon the Scriptural and Traditional bedrock of over eighteen centuries of the story of the Co-redemptrix, the Vicars of Christ become the main impetuses for the complete development of this doctrine. The nineteenth and twentieth century papal pronouncements bring the doctrine, and...

www.motherofallpeoples.com

 

[Cathoholic]

. . . The first official use of Co-redemptrix comes on May 13, 1908, in a document by the Congregation of Rites. In positive response to a petition to raise the rank of the feast of the Seven Sorrows of Mary to a double rite of second class for the universal Church, the Congregation of Rites expresses its hope that “the devotion of the Sorrowful Mother may increase and the piety of the faithful and their gratitude toward the merciful Co-redemptrix of the human race may intensify.” (11)

The Congregation of the Holy Office (currently, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) is the next congregation to use the term. On June 26, 1913, expressing the Congregation’s satisfaction in adding the name of Mary to the name of Jesus in the indulgenced greeting, “Praised be Jesus and Mary” which is then responded to, “Now and forever,” the official document signed by Cardinal Rampolla states: “There are those Christians whose devotion to the most favored among virgins is so tender as to be unable to recall the name of Jesus without the accompanying name of the Mother, our Co-redemptrix, the Blessed Virgin Mary.” (12)

Six months later, the same Holy Office grants a partial indulgence for the recitation of a prayer of reparation to the Blessed Virgin (Vergine benedetta). The prayers ends with the words: “I bless thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-redemptrix of the human race.” (13)

In these instances, the Holy Office which is commissioned by the Church as the guardian of doctrinal orthodoxy, freely uses the Co-redemptrix term in a complementary reference to the Feast of Our Lady of Sorrows, which manifests its sense of familiarity with and confidence in the term itself. The same Dicastery then grants indulgenced graces to a prayer that identifies the role of Mary, Co-redemptrix of the human race, as a privilege worthy of blessing. The use of the title by the Congregation of Rites (currently the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) also speak . . .

. . . In this simple passage, Pope Pius XI gives the rationale for the Co-redemptrix title, in light of how the Redeemer could not “not” have associated his Mother within God’s perfect providence in Redemption. (18) . . .

. . . In his 1954 encyclical on Our Lady’s Queenship (Ad Caeli Reginam), Pius XII uses his favored expression of “Associate” of the Redeemer (25) in referring to the Mother’s share in Redemption. He cites the seventeenth century Jesuit mariologist, Suarez in attesting to her unique cooperation in Redemption: “Just as Christ, because He redeemed us, is by a special title our King and our Lord, so too is Blessed Mary (our Queen and our Mistress) because of the unique way in which she cooperated in our redemption.” (26) . . .

Popes of the Marian Age and Mary Co-redemptrix

Building upon the Scriptural and Traditional bedrock of over eighteen centuries of the story of the Co-redemptrix, the Vicars of Christ become the main impetuses for the complete development of this doctrine. The nineteenth and twentieth century papal pronouncements bring the doctrine, and...

www.motherofallpeoples.com

 

[Cathoholic]

Dr. Miravalle on what Pope Francis said, and the mention of some less than accurate translations out in the news world (we are still awaiting the official Vatican English translation).

.

From Dave Armstrong . . . . .

. . . First of all, the issue of co-redemptrix is mostly one of whether it is the best term to describe what is firmly entrenched in Catholic belief and doctrines: Mary Mediatrix (which can also be grounded in the Bible). The two notions (though one can note certain fine-tuned distinctions) are virtually the same. Both are widely and vastly misunderstood, but co-redemptrix is relatively more misunderstood and much less used in Catholic circles.

Pope Benedict XVI accepts this doctrine (“correct intention” above), and he referred to Mediatrix , for example, in general audiences of 10-27-10 and 3-30-11, and a homily dated 1-1-07. On 2 February 2006: he stated: “Bringing her Son to Jerusalem, the Virgin Mother offered him to God as a true Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. She held him out to Simeon and Anna as the proclamation of redemption; . . .” And likewise, on on 11 May 2007: “There is no fruit of grace in the history of salvation that does not have as its necessary instrument the mediation of Our Lady.” He simply thinks that the term co-redemptrix is not the best one to use to describe this doctrine. . . .

. . . Pope St. John Paul II has used the term co-redemptrix on at least five occasions in the course of his papal teachings (see extensive documentation on this). . . .

. . . 31 January 1985: address at the Marian shrine in Guayaquil, Ecuador:

. . . Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity….In fact, Mary’s role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.

31 March 1985: Palm Sunday and World Youth Day:

. . . On Calvary, at the foot of the Cross, in the vastness and in the depth of her maternal sacrifice, she had John, the youngest Apostle, beside her….May, Mary our Protectress, the Coredemptrix, to whom we offer our prayer with great outpouring, make our desire generously correspond to the desire of the Redeemer. . . .

Pope Francis Vs. The Marian Title “Co-Redemptrix”? | Dave Armstrong

 

[fide]

I cited those verses specifically to point to the Church and away from sola-scripturism with private interpretation.

 

[annad347]

Not accurate…

Are you saying the way to The Father is not thru Jesus?

I saw your video and there is a difference in participating with helping someone and knowing what you need… Mary helps, she isnt a need.

Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father.

I’m wondering if you understand what I mean… and why I said some people here are one Pope away from saying Mary is your Redeemer, your Savior.

I’m just saying… becareful you dont cross line from honoring and worshiping.

 

[Lysander]

Infallibility of a Pope doesn’t pretain to everything he says. It pretains to when he says something from the seat of Peter. Which has only been used like 4 or 5 times in Church