Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

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Yes, a very special friend given that she is, among other things:
  • the Mother of the King (traditionally holds a very special position of influence wrt the King)
  • Our Mother also (Christ gave her to us as our mother when he said “Behold Your Mother” while hanging on the cross)
  • Our designated Mediatrix with Jesus
  • God’s designated distributor of Graces
Other saints are also our heavenly friends, but they do not have these special roles given them by God.

Happy New Year to you also!
 
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@TULIPed,

Good to see you, man and Happy New Year!

Thanks, @Tis_Bearself for explaining the Mediatrix thing. I was going to read my Mariology textbook before tackling TULIPed’s question; so thank you very much for beating me to the punch.

TULIPed,

Do you still have a question on Co Redemptrix?
 
Happy New Year Mike!

No, I’m good - the concept is as I thought it was. As usual, when in doubt about Catholic theology, head to the Catechism (which I think does a good job of outlining Marian doctrine - which is (as usual) precisely as @Tis_Bearself explained it ). (Similarly by the way - if you’re wondering about Reformed doctrine, the first place to go (other than the Bible 🙂 ) is our confessions.)
 
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That’s interesting. Final perseverance is also a grace. And I don’t see salvation as something that only happens at the end of our lives. But as something that has already happened, is happening (we are being saved), and hopefully will happen

What do you think of this passage from Blessed Pope Pius IX’s encyclical “Ubi Primum”?:
  1. And likewise in our own day, Mary, with the ever merciful affection so characteristic of her maternal heart, wishes, through her efficacious intercession with God, to deliver her children from the sad and grief-laden troubles, from the tribulations, the anxiety, the difficulties, and the punishments of God’s anger which afflict the world because of the sins of men. Wishing to restrain and to dispel the violent hurricane of evils which, as We lament from the bottom of Our heart, are everywhere afflicting the Church, Mary desires to transform Our sadness into joy. The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.[3]
    Ubi Primum - Papal Encyclicals
 
@patricius79,

The way I see salvation is that Christ paid the price for us that opened the door home. In effect: Giving is the opportunity to go home to God; if we remain faithful and repentant sinners.

We have to run the race and fight the good fight of faith, the battle of sanctification against sin that Saint Paul taught in Romans; all day, every day until the hour of our death.

Then we find out what the judgment is and we go where we go.

@TULIPed,

I’m glad you’re good. With the way some posters in this thread were going; I was expecting a huge fight on our hands with Protestants that would misunderstand what we mean by Co Redemptrix.
 
Sure, we can obtain salvation through Mary. She’s the fast track express lane to Salvation City, makes things nicer and easier. If we were making Google Maps to Salvation, she’d be the one shown as the “Best Route”.

We are, however, allowed to go directly to Jesus. It is highly likely that even in those cases where Mary is not invoked, she helps in some way, perhaps a way unknown to the person who is not invoking her. Mary has a history of popping up to help even some atheists and people who hated her (I’m thinking Bruno Cornacchiola).

The problem people who aren’t Mary devotees like you and me have with all this is that they see Mary as some kind of a barrier between them and Jesus, like you can’t go to the top man Jesus (or God), you have to go to his helper Mary to get his ear. We see it as a fast track channel, like VIP Access. They see it as an extra level of unnecessary bureaucracy. It’s incorrect thinking on their part, because as you and I know, Mary is awesome and always makes things faster and better. But one can always go straight to Jesus too. It’s allowed. And some saints did focus much more on going directly to Jesus than they did to going “to Jesus through Mary”.
 
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My question, @Tis_Bearself; is this:

Don’t get me wrong, sister. I love Our Lady deeply, I’m consecrated to her Immaculate Heart and I go to her for a lot of things.

I understand Co Redemptrix as she participated in our redemption in an unique way and offered up her Son on the Cross to the Father and suffered with Our Lord in her own Passion.

How can Our Lady help us obtain salvation, except through her intercession with God?

The basic thing being: She, of course; doesn’t forgive sins.
 
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I agree with much of what you say. Having an explicit, devotion to Mary is certainly the easier way to grow closer and stay closer to Jesus Christ.

But the ordinary Magisterium teaches not only this, but also that every good thing–including all salvation itself–is given through Mary. This means that if one thinks they are going directly to Christ, and are not going through Mary, they are mistaken; because, in fact, they would not be going to Christ at all were it not for the graces Christ has given them through Mary.

Yet God understands what we know and what we don’t know, and doesn’t hold things against us when we are seeking Him sincerely.
 
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patricius79 said:
But the ordinary Magisterium teaches not only this, but also that every good thing–including all salvation itself–is given through Mary. This means that if one thinks they are going directly to Christ, and are not going through Mary, they are mistaken; because, in fact, they would not be going to Christ at all were it not for the graces Christ has given them through Mary.
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And this is an excellent example of where Protestants would apply the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura does NOT say that all tradition is improper or sinful. If it did, Reformed Christians wouldn’t celebrate the liturgical seasons, wouldn’t use the word “Trinity”, wouldn’t recite the Nicene Creed, etc. etc. However, Sola Sciptura DOES say that any and all tradition must conform with Holy Scripture.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting your writing. I understand you to say that nobody would be able to go to Christ at all without Mary interceding for them. Since Christ is part of the Godhead, it follows then that nobody could go to God except through Mary.

Now, I’m not a Biblical scholar, but as far as I can tell, nowhere in scripture is this concept present. I would respectfully argue that in fact, Holy Scripture says almost exactly the opposite.

I, as a Protestant, could make a reasonable argument for intercessory prayer via the saints - past and present. This idea though:
patricius79 said:
This means that if one thinks they are going directly to Christ, and are not going through Mary, they are mistaken; because, in fact, they would not be going to Christ at all were it not for the graces Christ has given them through Mary.
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Is (a) definitely not - implicitly or explicitly - in scripture (if I am incorrect, please point me in the right direction); and (b) not in the RCC (that I can find). If I’m mistaken, please point me to the section of the RCC that says this. Thanks.
 
@TULIPed,

I really appreciate your respectful question. Please allow me help, if I can.

In Catholic teaching, we have a three way synergy between Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium.

Think of Scripture and Tradition as mutually supporting pillars: Neither stands alone and they continually reference each other. The Magisterium interprets Scripture and Tradition and definitively declares the proper interpretation of them.

The Church NEVER invents dogmas nor doctrine out of thin air. It must be present in Scripture and Tradition: Either explicitly or implicitly. Church teaching stands on the synergy of Scripture and Tradition and will never depart from this base.

Since I know you’ve read our Catechism; you know how copious and rich our documents are in Scripture references.

Whatever we do and teach has a basis in Scripture that’s either explicitly found in Scripture or lines up with Scripture.

As for our Mariology:

The basic premise is To Jesus through Mary as taught by Saint Louis de Montfort and the Wedding at Cana where Our Lady told the servants: “ Do as He tells you “ Our Lady always points to her Son.

There’s only four declared Marian dogmas:

A: Mother of God

B: Ever Virgin

C: Immaculate Conception

D: Assumption

All other Marian doctrines are acceptable to hold; not required to hold.

Only the four dogmas are required to be held by all Catholics.
 
Michael16 said:
All other Marian doctrines are acceptable to hold; not required to hold.

Only the four dogmas are required to be held by all Catholics.
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I agree with much of your post. And it’s true that Catholics are only required to hold the four Marian dogmas as points of faith regarding the Mother of God.

However, Catholics are required to sincerely adhere to all teachings–including Marian teachings of course–of the Magisterium. I referenced this recently, above, in a quotation from Lumen Gentium regarding religious assent.
 
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Thanks Michael. This is a great summary of the concept of dogmatic doctrine.

However - this is what makes things very confusing for us Protestants:
patricius79 said:
However, Catholics are required to sincerely adhere to all teachings–including Marian teachings of course–of the Magisterium. I referenced this recently, above, in a quotation from Lumen Gentium regarding religious assent.
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It’s true that there we Protestants are not unified over many things, and some of them important. However, when it comes to salvation, I’d challenge you to find a Protestant of any stripe who believes that salvation is from anyone or anything else than Christ alone. All Protestants (that I know of) believe that His grace - and only His grace - is sufficient for salvation. We take it a step further though and believe that His grace is sufficient for all of our trials. From 2 Corinthians 12:

“8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.”

(Incidentally, this is an interesting passage in regards to prayer. St. Paul has a particularly troubling “thorn in the flesh” he’s dealing with. I say interesting because he goes directly to Christ with this issue.)

You write that a Catholic only has to believe dogma. @patricius79 writes (as best I can tell) that this is true but that you are also supposed to “sincerely adhere” to the teachings of the Magisterium. If the teachings of the Magisterium are that all grace - including that of salvation - flows through Mary first; AND as a Catholic I must sincerely adhere to this teaching, how do I reconcile this with dogma?
 
Vatican II:

60There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”.(298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ…
….
Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*)…… This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17)
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
 
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Gorgias said:
Show me how what I said was false. Do Catholics exalt Mary above other humans? Do Catholics exalt Mary above Christ? Do Catholics call Mary ‘divine’ or ‘human’?
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BEcause … it lacks the necessary specificity required when talking about Groups of People…

It’s False to make comments as if they applied to entire Group of people when they don’t.

As in “Catholics do this…” Or, “Jews do that…” ETc…

Please to say at least "some… ", for even that vague generality makes a world of difference.

_
 
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@TULIPed,

@patricius79 put it very well with his quotation.

It must be remembered that Our Lady is not a source of anything. She’s a medium through which graces and salvation flows from THE source; God.

Once this is understood that Our Lady isn’t the source of everything she provides; you can see that in no way does any of our Marian doctrines and dogmas teach any Redeemer other than Jesus Christ.
 
I hear you - except that’s not what Pope Leo said.
patricius79 said:
For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary. [3]
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Pope Leo said that “we obtain everything through Mary.” Does this not mean that I can obtain nothing - including salvation - without Mary?
Michael16 said:
Once this is understood that Our Lady isn’t the source of everything she provides
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If Mary isn’t the source, but God has delegated to her the authority of a gateway, then why does it matter what the source is? I still have to - according to Pope Leo - get all graces, including salvation - through her.

Look - if the answer is that a Catholic can choose to ignore, or otherwise demote - what Pope Leo wrote - then I understand. I think that’s very confusing, but at least it makes sense. A Catholic is required to believe what’s in the RCC, and can “pick and choose” the rest?
 
God is the Source and Jesus is the Door to Him…

One’s FAITH must be in JESUS!

_
 
I would suggest you read 33 Days to Morning Glory. It is a very good introduction to how Mary helps us get closer to Christ and achieve salvation.

One of the issues with co-redemptrix in my mind is that we are all called to help Jesus in the work of redemption by participating in his sacrifice. We are called to join our sufferings to his, to be present at the foot of the cross as Mary was. Mary is our model. If she’s a co-redemptrix based on that, then we’re ALL co-redeemers when we try to model ourselves after her. I think someone mentioned this up thread.
 
Thanks, @Tis_Bearself.

That’s a beautiful way you put it: With Mary as our model, we’re all co redeemers.

By the way: I don’t have the 33 Ways. But I do have Consoling the Heart of Jesus by Fr Gaitley.
 
St Louis De Montfort said much the same thing as Pope Leo. Yes, we obtain everything through Mary because if she hadn’t said Yes to God in the first place and become mother of God by having Jesus, we would not obtain salvation or anything else.

That doesn’t mean I have to address my every prayer to her. Which I dont, though I love Mary. I do pray to all three persons of God directly and ask for the intercession of other saints.

People don’t seem able to understand that Mary plays a central role on many levels but never acts as a barrier or as someone we must approach in order to reach Jesus.
 
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