Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[annad347]

Thank you, that was very kind of you… but I did say sin stands between us and Jesus, and it was because of Adam and Eve we have sin, you just added depth to what I said.

 

[HarryStotle]

… Continued from last post.

Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Where did Jesus get his human body?

Think of the parallel.

Eve was taken (by God) from the side of Adam.

Jesus was conceived (by God) in the womb of Mary.

Through Eve’s choice (followed by Adam) sin reigned in humanity.

Through Mary’s choice (followed by Jesus’ birth, death and resurrection) the “reverse side” of original sin –the Good News of salvation – came to all through Christ.

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

Mary is the mother of Christ. We are the Body of Christ. Mary is the mother of the Body of Christ. She is our mother. Through her the effects of original sin were reversed.

The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

 

[annad347]

Sorry, you kind of lost me… I’m not undermining the Original sin or denying how it affect us, separated us from God.

all I said was that Adam and Eve opened the door for sin to enter our lives which stood between us and Jesus… you just added more to what I said.

 

[HarryStotle]

Sorry, you kind of lost me… I’m not undermining the Original sin or denying how it affect us, separated us from God.

all I said was that Adam and Eve opened the door for sin to enter our lives which stood between us and Jesus… you just added more to what I said.

My last two posts were supposed to be the same reply but too long to fit into one post. You posted between the two so it appears my second post was in response to yours. It wasn’t.

It was merely a continuation of the one before yours.

 

[annad347]

My last two posts were supposed to be the same reply but too long to fit into one post. You posted between the two so it appears my second post was in response to yours. It wasn’t.

I understood that, I’m just not sure what it had to do with what I said… that was where you lost me.

When I asked does Mary stand between you and Jesus, I meant do you need to go through Mary to get to Jesus.

Is Mary to Jesus, what Jesus is to God.

then you asked me to ask myself weather or not Adam and Eve stood between us and Jesus, and I said no, Adam and Eve made sin to enter our world and that is what stands between us and Jesus, sin.

Then you started posting about how Adam and Eve is the original sin, how we can’t deny that… and a lot of stuff.

I said that’s the same thing I said except with a lot of more words.

then you posted CCC references, then I asked for the scripture and you gave it to me… then you posted something about us being one body with Christ, and that’s where you lost me.

I know we said a few more things in between all that, and I might have messed up the order… but it was you’re last post that you lost me.

 

[twf]

Pope Leo said that “we obtain everything through Mary.” Does this not mean that I can obtain nothing - including salvation - without Mary?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Michael16:

Correct…but you’re looking at it in too linear a matter. Salvation comes from Christ. No creature, including Mary, can add anything to the infinite merits of His perfect work. Yet, Christ CHOOSE to take human nature from her and to enter the world through her. Likewise, He continues to CHOOSE to work through her constant intercession and mediation. This doesn’t in anyway hinder our direct, immediate relationship with Jesus…it only aids it.

When the priest distributes Holy Communion, Christ comes to me through the mediation of the priest…yet I also directly, intimately encounter Christ Himself.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

My last two posts were supposed to be the same reply but too long to fit into one post. You posted between the two so it appears my second post was in response to yours. It wasn’t.

I understood that, I’m just not sure what it had to do with what I said… that was where you lost me.

When I asked does Mary stand between you and Jesus, I meant do you need to go through Mary to get to Jesus.

Perhaps that Jesus had to go through Mary to get to you or me?

 

[annad347]

Perhaps that Jesus had to go through Mary to get to you or me?

Maybe… or she was simply The Ark of the New Covenant…

I think this is one point we can disagree about Mary but still worship Jesus.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Perhaps that Jesus had to go through Mary to get to you or me?

Maybe… or she was simply The Ark of the New Covenant…

What does that mean, exactly? Do we have any idea what simply the “Ark of the New Covenant” implies? How would we know whether it is possible to “simply” be the “Ark of the New Covenant?”

Seems to me that that is a declaration about Mary that comes from a human source and not God, as if we fully comprehend Mary and her role.

I am simply saying it would be better to not impose our own ideas about the role of Mary as if those are the limitations that bind God as to what her role in salvation was/is.

 

[annad347]

I am simply saying it would be better to not impose our own ideas about the role of Mary as if those are the limitations that bind God as to what her role in salvation was/is.

okay I wont… and I apologize for the word simply… being Mary could not have been easy, and there was definitely nothing simple about it.

 

[Crocus]

Perhaps that Jesus had to go through Mary to get to you or me?

This whole thread has been enlightening for me. Of course Jesus had to go through Mary, it was what the Father wanted, planned.

Maybe… or she was simply The Ark of the New Covenant…

What if God just appeared to us in a mist, or a light and said ok you prayed, so I love you, come home to me.
No, God willed that Jesus took his flesh from Mary. She was not a simple container, she was the revered Arc, that the people followed “for dear life” (as it happens, eternal life).

Mary is also our mother. Mother of the Church.
Jesus had to go through Mary to get to us.
Jesus had to go through the Church to get to us.

God might have saved us individually, through a prayer in a mist or a light, but chose Mary and the Church as the conduit.

I have always loved Mary, thanks to the posters here, I understand her better.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

I am simply saying it would be better to not impose our own ideas about the role of Mary as if those are the limitations that bind God as to what her role in salvation was/is.

okay I wont… and I apologize for the word simply… being Mary could not have been easy, and there was definitely nothing simple about it.

No need to apologize, but the point I am making is that we understand very little what it means to be a human being in the eyes of God. Our assumption is that we merely need to understand what it means to be a human from the perspective of a human being. Yet, beings only exist to the extent that they are “known” by God.

What counts is not what we believe or think about Mary, but what God does.

These are two very different things.

Perhaps, our journey towards coming to know Mary as she is in God’s eyes will help us to better understand who we are in God’s eyes. Not what we think of ourselves but to let God know us fully so that we know fully who we are in Truth.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-5,14)

And the angel said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women. (Luke 1:28)

 

[EndTimes]

This doesn’t exactly depict the nature and reality of original sin in terms of what the Church teaches. We are not merely deprived of Paradise, our nature has been irrevocably altered and wounded.

Well, yes. and, we were…
until Redemption was fulfilled by the Atonement of the Sacrificial Lamb upon the Cross…

Let us always bring to mind . the Redeeming Work of Jesus of which now,
via FAITH in Jesus the Door to God and to Eternal Life / Tree of Life
has been Re-Opened.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

This doesn’t exactly depict the nature and reality of original sin in terms of what the Church teaches. We are not merely deprived of Paradise, our nature has been irrevocably altered and wounded.

Well, yes. and, we were…
until Redemption was fulfilled by the Atonement of the Sacrificial Lamb upon the Cross…

Let us always bring to mind . the Redeeming Work of Jesus of which now,
via FAITH in Jesus the Door to God and to Eternal Life / Tree of Life
has been Re-Opened.

The redemption of humanity wasn’t “completed” or “fulfilled” by the death and resurrection of Jesus. The reason he left his body and blood as real food and drink is so that the process of redemption bring to completion the new creation.

If it was “fulfilled” we wouldn’t be here struggling still in this vale of tears. The “Good News” is that Jesus is the Saviour of all humankind – we all need salvation – and salvation is offered to all through Christ.

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Saviour of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ.

We are “turn[ed]… back towards God” (CCC405) but we are involved in the process of our redemption.

 

[Cathoholic]

Michael16 . . .

It must be remembered that Our Lady is not a source of anything.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the source of Christ’s body.

If you are a Latin Rite Catholic it was at least suggested in Galatians 4:4 last Wednesday (for the Feast of Mary Mother of God).

GALATIANS 4:4 4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born (genomenon) of woman, born under the law,

It was also prophesied in Genesis 3 (from the “sperma” of “the Woman” using the Septuagint).

You also recited it in the Creed at Mass.

and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

Just as the Old Adam was the source of flesh for the Old Eve . . . . By God’s design and Grace . . . The New Eve is allowed to cooperate as being the source of flesh for the New Adam.

(Michael16. I know you know this, but lurkers may get the wrong idea.

I am not suggesting this cooperation in the Incarnation (the Blessed Virgin Mary’s “fiat”) is the limit of the Blessed Mother’s cooperation. The Blessed Mother cooperated in other ways too.

And I don’t mean to suggest the Blessed Mother does not intercede for us even now. She surely does intercede on our behalf).

.

genomenon. Kind of like the word genome. Where we get our “stuff” so to speak.

genomenon

Thayer’s Definition

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
   of events
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
   of men appearing in public
4. to be made, finished
   of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5. to become, be made

 

[pnewton]

I understand, that as Mary gave birth to Jesus, she was crucial to salvation. But on the other hand, as a human being without divinity, any divine attribute she possesses, would have to be from God as the originator.

 

[Cathoholic]

pnewton . . .

God as the originator.

Ultimately in that sense all good flows from God. True enough pnewton.

But in a proximate sense there is cooperation and contribution from the Blessed Virgin Mary . . . .

and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

 

[Gorgias]

HarryStotle:

So, to put this in perspective, why would God permit a choice by two human beings to affect the lives of every human being born since? Why did God permit Eve (and Adam) to “stand between” all of us and him? Between you and Jesus (God)?

Brilliant question.

Not so sure it’s all that brilliant. I suspect that it appears to be an insightful question because the effects are spiritual. If it were a mundane occurrence with merely physical consequences, we wouldn’t ponder over it and presume it to have special import. It would just be considered “consequences to an action.”

Here’s the counter-example: let’s suppose that Adam and Eve decided to take up residence in Chernobyl immediately following the nuclear accident. This would have the effect of causing their eventual death. Moreover, if they had children following their visit, their progeny could have genetic effects (which would “affect the lives of every human born since”). And yet, we wouldn’t ask “why would God allow this?”. We’d just say “well, yeah… it was a bad choice, and it has consequences.”

 

[Cathoholic]

JOHN 6:51b 51 the bread which I shall give
for the life of the world
is my flesh.”

.

(From The Creed). . . and for our salvation
came down from heaven and
was incarnate
by the Holy Spirit
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man. . . .

VATICAN II (Lumen Gentium) 55. The Sacred Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament,
as well as ancient Tradition
show the role of the Mother of the Saviour in the economy of salvation in an ever clearer light and draw attention to it.
The books of the Old Testament describe the history of salvation, by which the coming of Christ into the world was slowly prepared. These earliest documents, as they are read in the Church and are understood in the light of a further and full revelation, bring the figure of the woman, Mother of the Redeemer, into a gradually clearer light.
When it is looked at in this way,
she is already prophetically foreshadowed in the promise of victory over the serpent which was given to our first parents after their fall into sin.(284)
Likewise she is the Virgin who shall conceive and bear a son, whose name will be called Emmanuel.(285) She stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from Him. With her the exalted Daughter of Sion, and after a long expectation of the promise, the times are fulfilled and
the new Economy established,
when the Son of God took a human nature from her,
that He might in the mysteries of His flesh free man from sin.

 

[annad347]

like I said before, posters here are just one Pope away from calling Mary your Redeemer, again this is just my opinion, nothing more… and all I say is be careful as to why you pray to Mary… Jesus Christ is your Savior.

Disagree, agree… it doesn’t matter, this is only my opinion.

What you do, or don’t do is between God and you. Just like what I do or don’t do is between The King and I ( get it, The King and I… the movie, its a joke don’t take it personal) between God and I.

God Bless.