Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[TULIPed]

Then we can obtain “everything” through Mary - as well as through a priest? I suppose this make sense, although it seems a strange way to think about salvation - at least to a Reformed Protestant.

For a Protestant, I think this is all what a photographer would call a “depth of field” issue. Which is to say it’s about focus. I think Catholics have a much broader depth of field in terms of who the focus on with regard to salvation. You guys think about and focus on a lot of people it seems - Christ, Mary, the Pope, your bishop, your parish priest - when thinking about salvation. (I understand though that somehow, in this formula, you believe that everything comes from Christ).

We Protestants must seem like simpletons then to you, no? When it comes to salvation, we focus on, and give credit to one person, and one person only - Jesus Christ. I say this with humility - perhaps your faith is strong enough to hold this broader depth of field in such a way that gives Christ - and everyone else - the credit and reverence they deserve. I must confess that I am not capable of such a feat. I have trouble enough keeping myself out of His way!

I any case, as I’ve said before, this is a large cultural gap between us. One I fear will take quite some time to bridge. Having said that though - we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us!

 

[Crocus]

I think Catholics have a much broader depth of field in terms of who the focus on with regard to salvation. You guys think about and focus on a lot of people it seems - Christ, Mary, the Pope, your bishop, your parish priest - when thinking about salvation. (I understand though that somehow, in this formula, you believe that everything comes from Christ).

I think what you have said is a good way of putting it. Everything comes from Christ, and, we have a huge sense of the Body of Christ.

 

[patricius79]

When it comes to salvation, we focus on, and give credit to one person, and one person only - Jesus Christ. I say this with humility - perhaps your faith is strong enough to hold this broader depth of field in such a way that gives Christ - and everyone else - the credit and reverence they deserve. I must confess that I am not capable of such a feat. I have trouble enough keeping myself out of His way!

I have trouble keeping myself–my ego, my worries, my doubts, my attachments–out of the way, too. That is why I turn to the Mother of God for help. She helps me to focus on Christ.

 

[MortimusCatholicus]

Excellent response. I agree.

 

[patricius79]

What would most interest me in the hypothetical declaration of a 5th Marian dogma is to see the Church authoritatively articulate Mary’s role in salvation history. I’m less concerned about the title they give for her to do that. Honestly, Mediatrix makes a lot more sense that Co-Redemptrx if we are looking for one title to encapsulate the teaching (a la Theotokos ).

That might be right. The Magisterium could articulate definitively, as a matter of faith, Mary’s role in cooperating with Christ. It could define her as the New Eve, the Mother of each Christian and each human, through whom all graces are given to us by Jesus Christ. It wouldn’t have to use the term “Co-Redemptrix”, which many find confusing.

 

[patricius79]

It’s like how Jesus told us to love God with all our heart, all our soul, all our mind, and all our strength; and love our neighbor as ourself.

Loving our neighbor doesn’t distract us from loving God. Loving God leads us to love our neighbor more, and loving our neighbor leads us to love God more.

 

[EndTimes]

The redemption of humanity wasn’t “completed” or “fulfilled” by the death and resurrection of Jesus

Sure it was…

Many Scriptural references are clear…

In him we have redemption through his blood,
the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. – Ephesians 1:

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

The redemption of humanity wasn’t “completed” or “fulfilled” by the death and resurrection of Jesus

Sure it was…

Many Scriptural references are clear…

In him we have redemption through his blood,
the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. – Ephesians 1:

I think you are missing the point here.
The death and resurrection of Jesus fulfilled or completed the requisite conditions for redemption, but the redemption of human beings is the process that is the ongoing mission of the Church through history.

All human beings haven’t been redeemed in time because there are still human beings being born and dying today. That is the entire point of the existence of the Church. What may be confusing here is that the Resurrection is an eternal event and therefore human redemption has, in that sense, been accomplished, eternally speaking.

However, there is evidence in both the Catechism and in the writings of Paul that the “day of Redemption” is a “future” event, temporally speaking.

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) “for the day of redemption.” “Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life.” The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life “marked with the sign of faith,” with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

13 In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; 14 this is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people, to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:13-14)

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption. (Eph 4:30)

But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us, 22 by putting his seal on us and giving us his Spirit in our hearts as a first installment. (2 Cor 1:21-22)

The difficulty with assuming that redemption “has occurred” is that position is very easily collapsed into a once saved always saved soteriology.

Paul speaks of the “first installment” that has been accomplished by the death and Resurrection of Christ and the coming of the Holy Spirit, but he also speaks in the passages above of “the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people,” and being "marked with a seal for the day of redemption.

Continued…

 

[HarryStotle]

That isn’t the language of completion, it is the language of “a work in progress.” The Catechism (1274) also implies that with the forward looking statement: "The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) "for the day of redemption."

Paul’s famous "Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; (Philippians 2:12), doesn’t imply salvation has been accomplished but something still being worked out.

This could lead to a discussion of the difference between redemption and salvation as spelled out by the Church, but it appears that both the Catechism and Paul use the word redemption (almost interchangeably) as a thing yet to be fully accomplished.

 

[EndTimes]

I think you are missing the point here.

And to you too… .

ManKind has been Redeemed back to God.

From the time of Jesus - all who put Faith in Him - Worship in Spirit and Truth - and go to Heaven.

 

[twf]

obtain “everything” through Mary - as well as through a priest? I suppose this make sense, although it seems a strange way to think about salvation - at least to a Reformed Protestant.

For a Protestant, I think this is all what a photographer would call a “depth of field” issue. Which is to say it’s about focus. I think Catholics have a much broader depth of field in terms of who the focus on with regard to salvation. You guys think about and focus on a lot of p

I was raised Evangelical Protestant. I’m a convert. I think it is fair to say that the evangelical Protestant faith is much simpler. I say that not in a condescending tone…just factual…it lacks the same depth of history and tradition.
Yes, many are called to participate in the work of redemption…including you and me. Consider St. Paul’s words:
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church: (Col 1:24).

Yet Our Lady’s role is unique, for it was by her fiat that the union of God and man, the marriage of Creator and creation, occurred within her womb.
Her role at the foot of the cross was also unique…as Simeon prophesized, Our Lady was to share in the Lord’s sufferings in a special way:
And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. (Luke 2:34-35).

 

[Fauken]

And to you too… .

ManKind has been Redeemed back to God.

From the time of Jesus - all who put Faith in Him - Worship in Spirit and Truth - and go to Heaven.

Are you promoting that once someone is saved they are always saved?

 

[EndTimes]

Are you promoting that once someone is saved they are always saved?

No way…

I’m informing that the task given to Jesus the Redeemer from God
has been accomplished via His Atonement Sacrifice on the Cross.

The Gulf caused by Original Sin requiring Redemption via Jesus The Redeemer…

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

God and ManKind are now together for those with Faith in Jesus…

Consider God’s Holy Spirit coming back to Faithful Believers from Pentecost onward

Even PETER IS as a completely new person - for now? God is inside Peter… Actively Guiding Peter.

)_

 

[HarryStotle]

Not so sure it’s all that brilliant. I suspect that it appears to be an insightful question because the effects are spiritual. If it were a mundane occurrence with merely physical consequences, we wouldn’t ponder over it and presume it to have special import. It would just be considered “consequences to an action.”

At the risk of engaging in even more sophistry, perhaps it might make sense to try to clarify some relevant terms.

Perhaps establishing the differences between redemption, salvation and justification might get at this issue. Reworked (roughly paraphrased) from this site:

Redemption removes the impediments of sin. From God’s perspective, divine honour has been repaired and divine justice has been restored. From the human view, redemption means deliverance from the bondage of sin and opens or restores our relationship with God.

Salvation does not begin and end with redemption. After being redeemed from sin and reconciled with God, the process of salvation begins. Salvation from sin begins with the working of grace changing a sinner’s heart/soul, calling to repentance and moving the soul back to God.
Sinners are by grace disposed towards salvation from sin.

Justification comes after disposition towards salvation and is the sanctification and renewal of our inner selves through our voluntary reception of God’s grace and gifts. This inner transformation will manifest in the way we live our lives and how we treat others.

The difficulty, it seems, is that these three aspects are not separable, no matter how hard we try.

It might be said that what the work of Christ did vis a vis redemption was remove the obstacles from God’s perspective, which accomplished on the cross. However, are the obstacles, in fact, removed if we still sin or if the soul is still not completely sanctified?

The depth of the question in question revolves around the nature of sin and what is it about sin that makes it an actual impediment to God? Why does God permit sin to be an impediment, from his perspective, and why does he require the cooperation of human free will to remove the impediment? Which takes us back to the significance of Mary’s fiat.

 

[EndTimes]

At the risk of engaging in even more sophistry, perhaps it might make sense to try to clarify some relevant terms.

It seems to me … that this does not in any manner clarify what is already clear …

Additional Scriptures underscore that we’ve been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb

As does the Magisterium

For instance:

CCC

[613] Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant , which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

At the risk of engaging in even more sophistry, perhaps it might make sense to try to clarify some relevant terms.

It seems to me … that this does not in any manner clarify what is already clear …

Additional Scriptures underscore that we’ve been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb

As does the Magisterium

For instance:

CCC

[613] Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant , which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440

Note the difference in tense between your (past) "we’ve been redeemed " and the CCC “accomplishes the definitive redemption” and takes away and restores and reconciling. The last is the transitive form of the verb, which means presently “acting upon” the direct object him.

None of these are in the past tense that you use – redeemed. All imply present and active, except the “was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sin,” which describes the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Even the first few words from 613, “Christ’s death IS…” is not expressed as a past event. It doesn’t say, “Christ’s death WAS…” The reason is because, as fully human and fully divine, Jesus’ death is eternally significant – significant at all times and places.

In other words, it would be more proper to say, “we are (being) redeemed”, rather than "we’ve been redeemed."

 

[Gorgias]

At the risk of engaging in even more sophistry, perhaps it might make sense to try to clarify some relevant terms.

Not seeing how your post here is relevant to the question “is the question ‘why would God permit a choice by two human beings to affect the lives of every human being?’ an insightful one?”

At best, you’re pointing to the fact that it all fits within God’s plan of salvation – in other words, just parroting Romans 8:28.

But, since you’re asking “why does God permit sin to be an impediment?”, then you’re asking a simple question, with a simple answer: God has given humans free will, and He doesn’t interfere with that gift.

Sorry if that seems like ‘sophistry’ to you; perhaps our definitions of that word vary.

 

[EndTimes]

CCC

[613] Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant , which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440

 

[patricius79]

This is from Vatican II:

"So it is that that messianic people, although it does not actually include all men, and at times may look like a small flock, is nonetheless a lasting and sure seed of unity, hope and salvation for the whole human race. Established by Christ as a communion of life, charity and truth, it is also used by Him as an instrument for the redemption of all, and is sent forth into the whole world as the light of the world and the salt of the earth.(95).
….

"62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[otjm]

To make a short answer, in the Old Testament we find that Israel had kings, and kings are often found with wives (queens, if you will).

However, the “power behind the throne” was not the queen; it was the Queen Mother. When one wanted a favor from the king, the wise person went to the Queen Mother for intervention.