Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

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CCC 613 courtesy of EndTimes . . . .
[613] Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant , which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440
Excerpt from CCC 618 with emphasis mine . . . .
CCC 618 (salient exceprts) . . . in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made PARTNERS, in a way known to God, in the PACHAL MYSTERY ”. . . . This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother . . .
.

Anyone who studies Jewish faith items realize, religious Jews teach that they ENTER INTO the Passover event when they celebrate Passover.

Passover is not (in their teaching) a mere reenactment.

Likewise the fulfillment of Passover. The definitive Passover. Calvary. The Mass. This transcends time.

Partners. Subordinate and by grace to be sure.

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ROMANS 6:3 3 Do you not know that
all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus
were baptized INTO his death?
ROMANS 8:17 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ,
provided we suffer with him
in order that we may also be glorified with him.
 
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annad347 . . .
like I said before, posters here are just one Pope away from calling Mary your Redeemer , again this is just my opinion, nothing more… and all I say is be careful as to why you pray to Mary… Jesus Christ is your Savior.
Has ANYONE here (“posters here”) talked of anybody being the one ultimate Redeemer other than Jesus?

Where are you drawing these conclusions from?
 
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@otjm that may be true, but if you believe the Queen is the power behind the throne… the only way to get your request heard… acknowledge, then you might start to wonder why do you need the King who is on the throne. The Queen is the one who’s helping you, comforting you, guiding you… loving you, saving you. Keep in mind this is just my opinion.

@Cathoholic, again just my opinion. When I started my last thread, asking if I had to pray to Mary to be a practicing Catholic, most said no but it might hard during service… but that no I didn’t have too.

Others couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t want to pray to her. Even pointed out how being disrespectful, even rude to Jesus because I wanted to pray to only Him.

Then this thread started about her being a co-redemptrix… a title she doesn’t need or some pointed out wouldn’t want, I noticed a few people stated not only did she already have the title that it was just matter of time for a Pope to honor her with the title, to make it official.

So I just started thinking what would happen if a Pope or any other religious leader or person of importance started calling her redeemer. If they would accept it without question, just because she’s Mary.

again it’s just my opinion

and if you think it would never happen, one you never know… but think of about other changes in the Catholic church that surprised you… thing you thought would never happen. Before you ask no I don’t have any examples. I never read the CCC, but I haveread some people say how they didn’t like some changes with Vatican II, or how they liked what one Pope did over what another Pope is doing… so something had to have change.

Again this is just my opinion.
 
Anyone who studies Jewish faith items realize, religious Jews teach that they ENTER INTO the Passover event when they celebrate Passover.
Are you speaking of modern rabbinial Judaism Jews?

Or of the form of religion practiced during the time of Jesus?

In either case it matters not …

MeanWhile for Catholic Christians

[613] Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant , which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440
 
So I just started thinking what would happen if a Pope or any other religious leader or person of importance started calling her redeemer. If they would accept it without question, just because she’s Mary.

again it’s just my opinion
This I believe is why the Pope said what he did. There is no way to define this doctrine, in the language of today, without more confusion.

There are a couple of Marian points above I do not want to argue over, as I do not believe like they do, but there is some latitude in that which has not been defined. However, there is no practical purpose to arguing over minutiae. We will all know in due season how Heaven works, if we stay true. So if someone wants to have a lavish Marian devotion, yet understand the limitation of such a devotion, who am I do discourage it. If one does not care for such devotions, then let them find what is best to suit them. We must be evangelists for Jesus, not our own sense of devotion.

It is still good to share our own stories though. I personally have always been drawn to John the Baptist, the cousin of our Savior and the one to whom he said there was none greater born of woman.
 
annad347 . . . .
So I just started thinking what would happen if a Pope or any other religious leader or person of importance started calling her redeemer.
Nobody has called the Blessed Vigin Mary “redeemer” in the sense of THE Redeemer that I have ever seen.

A couple of posts ago I posted a couple of Scripture verses.

.
ROMANS 6:3 3 Do you not know that
all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus
were baptized INTO his death?
.
ROMANS 8:17 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ,
provided we suffer with him
in order that we may also be glorified with him.
.

I can see your love of God from your posts. You are a fine Christian.

You affirm you were Baptized into Jesus’ death (because the Bible says you were Baptized into His death).

This is real.

There is a prophecy in Genesis 3 about crushing/bruising the head of the serpent.

Jesus does that.
But His Blessed Mother is allowed to participate in that.

And St. Paul sees the WHOLE Church as having a participation in that too!

And this is by GRACE.
ROMANS 16:19-20 19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20 then the God of peace will soon
crush Satan under YOUR feet.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
I don’t think I have looked at your profile yet, but you seem to be writing from a Protestant-Christian perspective.

Steve Wood (a convert from Protestant Christianity to the fullness of Christianity–Catholicism) has pointed out . . .

. . . In Protestantism, they tend to look at salvation as mere forgiveness of sins.

In a fuller Catholic Christianity, we see that too, but also see the fact we are made PARTAKERS of the Divine nature.

.
2nd PETER 1:3-4 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.
.

Wood says . . . “See how big of a deal, they make out of being a son or daughter of God, and I can tell you where they are in the spectrum of Christianity”.

(I am paraphrasing Wood.)

Just something for you to think sbout going forward.

Also the “change” thing that you brought up?
Customs and disciplines change.
Faith and morals, at least officially taught faith and morals . . . .
. . . Never change (since the time of Christ and the Apostles).
 
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EndTimes . . .
MeanWhile for Catholic Christians
[613] Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant , which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440
Of course Christ accomplishes this.

The question is, does He allow by grace a participation by men into His Paschal Mystery?

And the answer is yes.

We PARTICIPATE or are made PARTNERS by grace into Jesus’ one, once for all Pachal Mystery that includes the Mystery of Jesus singular once for all Redemption.
CCC 618 (salient exceprts) . . . in his incarnate divine person
he has in some way united himself to every man,
“the possibility of being made PARTNERS . . .
. . . in the PACHAL MYSTERY ”. . . .
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother . . .
That part of the reason WHY we die WITH Jesus.
This is part of our entering INTO HIM.
Entering into His Life, His Death . . . .
. . . And finally into His Resurrection.
 
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That is why we can “share his sufferings” (Phil 3) and can be “always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus” ( 2 Cor 4).

And that is why, as Vatican II says, Christ uses the Church as an “instrument of redemption”.
 
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but if you believe the Queen is the power behind the throne… the only way to get your request heard… acknowledge, then you might start to wonder why do you need the King who is on the throne.
I would suggest that you re-read my post. Nowhere did I say that one could not go to the King; nowhere did I say that the only way to get a request heard is by petitioning the Queen Mother.

And in a post prior to the one you are responding to, I noted that a) it had been hotly debated in the late Middle ages between the Franciscans and the Dominicans with the Dominicans objecting to the title, and b) the matter has risen to the surface multiple times with multiple Popes, and they have consistently not formally made this one of her titles; so this isn’t exactly the first rodeo on the matter.
Further, in a second post I noted that the matter had come up outside the Council, but between sessions when a group (order - Servites) promoting the title prepared a booklet which was circulated to at least some of the bishops. the matter was not brought up during sessions of the Council and the matter was not included in the document which treated Mary.

The rosary has been the most popular private devotion for centuries; a multitude of people love the private devotion; and some people struggle with it. Some may combine that in their private prayer with saying some or all of the Liturgy of the Hours, the other primary liturgy of the Church, and others may some or all of the LOTH and not the rosary. Ultimately it is up to the individual to find and practice their spirituality within the vast plethora of opportunities and forms the Church has developed and approved of, and it is not particularly the business of anyone else to approve or disapprove of our personal choice.

My comment about the Queen Mother’s role was simply to provide the person I was responding to, a bit of scriptural perspective. I made no suggestion that it was the only means, or necessarily the most important means of interacting with Christ.
 
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POPE JOHN PAUL II (This regarding the title of Mary, Mother of the Church)

GENERAL AUDIENCE

Wednesday, 17 September 1997

. . . On Calvary, Mary united herself to the sacrifice of her Son and made her own maternal contribution to the work of salvation, which took the form of labour pains, the birth of the new humanity.

In addressing the words “Woman, behold your son” to Mary, the Crucified One proclaims her motherhood not only in relation to the Apostle John but also to every disciple. The Evangelist himself, by saying that Jesus had to die “to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad” (Jn 11:52), indicates the Church’s birth as the fruit of the redemptive sacrifice with which Mary is maternally associated.

The Evangelist St Luke mentions the presence of Jesus’ Mother in the first community of Jerusalem (Acts 1:14). In this way he stresses Mary’s maternal role in the newborn Church, comparing it to her role in the Redeemer’s birth. The maternal dimension thus becomes a fundamental element of Mary’s relationship with the new People of the redeemed.
  1. Following Sacred Scripture, patristic teaching recognizes Mary’s mother-hood in the work of Christ and therefore in that of the Church, although in terms which are not always explicit.
According to St Irenaeus, Mary “became a cause of salvation for the whole human race” ( Haer. 3, 22, 4; PG 7, 959), and the pure womb of the Virgin “regenerates men in God” ( Haer. 4, 33, 11; PG 7, 1080). This is re-echoed by St Ambrose, who says: “A Virgin has begotten the salvation of the world, a Virgin has given life to all things” ( Ep. 63, 33; PL 16, 1198), and by other Fathers who call Mary “Mother of salvation” (Severian of Gabala, Or. 6 in mundi creationem, 10, PG 54, 4; Faustus of Riez, Max. Bibl. Patrum, VI, 620-621). . . .

. . . 5. The title “Mother of the Church” thus reflects the deep conviction of the Christian faithful, who see in Mary not only the mother of the person of Christ, but also of the faithful. She who is recognized as mother of salvation, life and grace, mother of the saved and mother of the living, is rightly proclaimed Mother of the Church.

Pope Paul VI would have liked the Second Vatican Council itself to have proclaimed “Mary Mother of the Church, that is, of the whole People of God, of the faithful and their Pastors”. He did so himself in his speech at the end of the Council’s third session (21 November 1964), also asking that “henceforth the Blessed Virgin be honoured and invoked with this title by all the Christian people” ( AAS 1964, 37).

In this way, my venerable Predecesser explicitly enunciated the doctrine contained in chapter eight of Lumen gentium, hoping that the title of Mary, Mother of the Church, would have an ever more important place in the liturgy and piety of the Christian people.
Bold mine.

http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_17091997.html
 
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. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

CCC 967
By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus) 510 of the Church.

CCC 968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

CCC 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

CCC 970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." 513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514
 
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The question is, does He allow by grace a participation by men into His Paschal Mystery?
That Question does not alter the fact that Jesus Redeemed ManKind… . at the Cross… by His Blood

[613] Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant , which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440

As The Son of God
  • Jesus’ Atonement Sacrifice for SIN
    is the one and only necessary Perfect Sacrifice which Redeemed Mankind back to God.
LUMEN GENTIUM - JESUS IS OUR ONLY REDEEMER!

It is most fitting, therefore, that we love those friends and co-heirs of Jesus Christ who are also our brothers and outstanding benefactors, and that we give due thanks to God for them,[14] "humbly invoking them, and having recourse to their prayers, their aid and help in obtaining from God through his Son, Jesus Christ, Our Lord, our only Redeemer and Savior, the benefits we need.’’[15]

Every authentic witness of love, indeed, offered by us to those who are in heaven tends to and terminates in Christ, "the crown of all the saints,’’[16] and through him in God who is wonderful in his saints and is glorified in them.[17]

=====================================

We too can suffer… as our Lord has done… And He IS the ONE and only REDEEMER

CCC 1 - 1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church.

To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.
 
Jesus is our only Redeemer.
(Do you not believe He can allow PARTICIPATION in His one Redemption?)

Jesus is our only Mediator.
(Do you not believe He can allow PARTICIPATION in His one Mediation?)

God is our only Father.
(Do you not believe He can allow PARTICIPATION in His one Fatherhood?)

Jesus is the only crusher of the head of the serpent.
(Do you not believe He can allow PARTICIPATION in His one crushing of the head of the serpent?)

Jesus is our only Priest.
(Do you not believe He can allow PARTICIPATION in His one Priesthood such as the priesthood of all believers? Or the ministerial priesthood?)

Jesus’ body and blood is Jesus’ body and blood.
(Do you not believe He can allow PARTICIPATION in His one body and blood? Is not the bread that we eat, a PARTICIPATION in the BODY of Christ? Does He not then abide in us AND we in Him?)

If the answer is “no” to any of these,
it is just a whittling away of part of the gospel
where St. Paul talks of
our koinonia or PARTICIPATION
in Christ.

I would not try to make a “yes/and”, into an “either/or”.
 
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Teachings of The Catholic Church

JESUS IS OUR ONE AND ONLY REDEEMER! …

Why are any - who’s been asking me many questions - avoid answering my question

A simple Yes or No shall suffice.

_
 
EndTimes . . .
Why are any - who’s been asking me many questions - avoid answering my question

A simple Yes or No shall suffice.
No a simple yes or no will not suffice.

Why?

Because there are different senses built into your question.

And your “either/or” theological presuppositions,
are built-in to your questions here.

So if I ignore the layered senses that the Bible teaches, I ignore the teachings of Christ.
 
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God’s given you the free will to ignore whatever you will to…

I Agree with Scriptures, Tradition and The Magisterium

Jesus is My Lord!
 
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EndTimes . . . .
God’s given you the free will to ignore whatever you will to…

I Agree with Scriptures, Tradition and The Magisterium

Jesus is My Lord!
I’m not ignoring anything.

Go back and look at my questions to you.

Here they are again.
40.png
Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused Sacred Scripture
Jesus is our only Redeemer. (Do you not believe He can allow PARTICIPATION in His one Redemption?) Jesus is our only Mediator. (Do you not believe He can allow PARTICIPATION in His one Mediation?) God is our only Father. (Do you not believe He can allow PARTICIPATION in His one Fatherhood?) Jesus is the only crusher of the head of the serpent. (Do you not believe He can allow PARTICIPATION in His one crushing of the head of the serpent?) Jesus is our only Priest. (Do you not believe He …
You are literate in Scripture enough to know their are dual senses to ALL those propositions and more.

It’s always easier to believe less EndTimes.

It is a grace to see these different senses AND BELIEVE in them.

The problem with the denial that you are there WITH Christ on the Cross, is age old.

It is a scandal to the Greeks (Gentiles, or worldly thinking) and a folly to the Jews.
1st CORINTHIANS 1:23 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles
Nobody wants the Cross (or hardly anybody).

It’s pretty EASY to see one’s self WITH CHRIST in GLORY.

Everyone wants Easter without Good Friday.

When Peter purposed that to Jesus, our Lord referred to him as “opposer” or “satan” as the late bishop Sheen has pointed out.

A full-Gospel sees and affirms Good Friday AND Easter.

I Agree with Scriptures, Tradition and The Magisterium too. ALL of it.
 
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